Should Christians Fight In Wars ?

[jasoncran]

ROMANS 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Was it possible to NOT go to war in Afghanistan & Iraq.

Was it a possibility?

Or did we have no choice whatsoever?

Did the civil authorities have a choice?

Do soldiers have a choice? Actually.....Jason>>> if a soldier decides to read the NT and then go to his commanding officer can he say he refuses to go into action because he's been born again and doesn't want to kill?

Can he get out of his duties immediately on religious grounds? Probably not but I was wondering.​

no, the status of consiensus objector only applies to the quakers and mennonites. though you can apply.

when i argue here with pacifists, i use the army defenition of pacifism:

a pacifist will not fight even if it means his life.

and they check if you are one of those. its easy to do that.


now then i was saved when i went to afghanistan. one can show mercy and compassion and help whenever possible. i did that, i have posted stories on this

please dont judge the vet for his service to country or any that are willing to die for you. when one serves his country one is denying you for others.

i will say it this way." Some gave all, and all gave some"

 

[jasoncran]

Ok here is the whole deal, if we have to go to war. Then we have to go to war, what is so hard to understand. Let me ask some of you something, say suppose America gets invaded, now we all have family here, what would you all do ?

volunteer agian and come out of retirement and sharpen my sword and fight till i die, and or the war is over.

 

[Lewis]

volunteer agian and come out of retirement and sharpen my sword and fight till i die, and or the war is over.

Spoken like the true Major General soldier that you are, Company aaaaattention' forward march, your left, your left, your left right Delta, your left, your left, your left right Delta, company, column left marccccchh, your left, your left, your left right Delta. Ain't no sense in going home Jody got your girl and, gone. sound off one two, sound off three four, break it on down, one two, one two, one two, three four.
Your left, your left right Delta.

 

[jasoncran]

lewis, i havent heard that cadence in years, theres two versions of that one.

lol, jody.

 

[Lewis]

Jason I have not heard it in years myself.

 

[Strangelove]

If America gets invaded by air and ground troops, especially the ground troops you do the math.

So...again your talking about self-defence not going off and attacking countries.

The answer is....you go into hiding.

If you have to use direct violence to protect your family...then no-one can pull you up on that, I certainly would't critisize you but its a fleshy, worldly sin. And you will answer to God for that.

America is gonna go down by consent my friend not direct foreign invasion.

Its the laws that will get you. The U.N. will enforce them and most of you will either go along with it or be Martyred for the witness of Christ.

 

[Strangelove]

volunteer agian and come out of retirement and sharpen my sword and fight till i die, and or the war is over.

And what happens when, before the invasion is supposedly coming....you volunteer and then the government decide to institute a state of MARTIAL LAW.

And you are commanded by your superiors to begin rounding up civilians and seperating families and loading them onto trains to be moved to FEMA emergency camps.

All this is for National Security OF COURSE.

Would you do it?

 

[Strangelove]

HITLER, OBAMA and ROMANS 13: 1-4



Is Romans 13:1-4 "religion", or hard core politics about freedom and government tyranny?

Hitler and his German collaborating pre-Nazi clergy used their perversion of Romans 13 to justify Christian non involvement in government and their non-resisting subordination to tyranny...in the name of God.

Obama is attempting through the misnamed Fairness Doctrine and hate crimes to extinguish or outlaw Christians who contend that involvement in government is their incontestable sacred duty.

The Dedicated Minority
​

Obama knows well that it is the dedicated minority which determines the rise of nations to freedom, or their descent into slavery. He knows that in America, just in pre-Nazi Germany, the Christian clergy can be used to confuse, neutralize and paralyze Christians whose Romans 13 mandates from Christ Himself demand their involvement in government freedom affairs. These are Christians who understand that the so-called "separation of church and state" is a farse fabricated to preempt Christian duty to our government and to resist those who would confront forces destructive to it.

A Remnant
​

Today there is a remnant of such Christians in America who feel the noose of tyranny tightening, and they foresee the dire consequences to their children and loved ones that will crush their liberties, just as happened in Hitler's Germany. America's clergy, excepting a remnant, are aiding Obama by default by their parroting the "separation of church and state" myth, and the freedom-killing misinterpretation of Romans 13.

Romans 13: Curse or Blessing?
​

So, what IS Romans:13 which opened the Hitler's door to genocide of millions of both Jews and Christians, and paved the way for absolute evil to subjugate an entire nation of men, women and children?

Romans 13:1
​

Romans 13:1 reads: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God.

The pre-Nazi clergy and Hitler contended that Romans 13:1 meant that government affairs are in the hands of God, and that while it was a Christian's duty to live a Godly personal life, but it was sin against God's will for Christians to be involved in political affairs of government. Christians who believed God mandated their total involvement in government soon found themselves and their families suffering horrible consequences or even transported to Hitler's death camps.

Romans 13:2
​

Further justification by Hitler and his clergy was based upon Romans 13:2, which reads: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

The literal out-of-context interpretation of 13:2 would seem to justify horrible repressive measures against any remnant of freedom-based resistance which resisted the Nazi government's imposition of tyranny upon the citizens.

Where Hitler's clergy right? Are America's clergy today, right in their out-of-context interpretation of Romans 13:1,2?

Romans 13:3
​

PLEASE NOTE that IN context Romans 13:3 defines God's purpose for government:
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Romans 13:4
​

Christ further defines the role of government as the defender of freedom (not its suppressor):
For he [government-ed] is the minister of God to thee for good [righteousness - ed]. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God , a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil ( Rom. 13:4).

Author of Liberty
​

God is the author of freedom. He is the arch foe of tyranny and slavery. In Romans 13:3 and 4 He specifies that the purpose of government is to promote and defend liberty. That is, government must be founded and structured upon His laws and ordinances of righteousness and freedom. Those who would attempt to extinguish those blessings will be subject to His wrath.
Recall the rubble to which Germany was reduced in a matter of a few years.

Our Christian Republic
​

America's Bible-based Constitutional Republic recognizes the sinful fallen nature of man as set forth in the Bible, and thus was established upon a system of checks and balances known as Legislative, Judicial and Executive. The citizen's rights are spelled out in the Bill of Rights.

Obama's greatest threat to America
​

America's government perpetuates the righteousness of God through its biblical essence: "of the people, by the people, for the people". That is, our government is structured to be the servant of her citizens. It is the sacred duty of her citizens under Romans 13:3,4 to be totally involved in all matters of freedom, both personal and national. If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do? (Psalm 11:3) That is Obama's greatest threat to America.

Survival - and America's complicit, defiant clergy
​

America is engaged in a war for her survival as a free nation. Her Christian clergy who stand neutral and intimidated on the great issues of our times such as homosexuality, right-to-life, the national economy, Christian education, or disarming our missile defenses, are on a parallel track with the capitulating clergy of Nazi Germany. They are in blatant defiance of the ordinances of God and paradoxically they justify their silence on the fabricated myth of separation of church and state, and Romans 13:1,2. By default, they are leading our nation to its probable destruction.

Only one way
​

God has made clear the consequences to America of these abandonment clergy:

All nations that forget God shall be turned into hell (Psalm 9:17).


In Reflection


Is Romans 13 theology, or politics?
​

To readers who think the above has been simply a discourse in theology: may I remind you that life itself is a continual struggle between the spiritual, ideological, and political realms. They are all inseparably interrelated.

America's political freedom, for example, is a spiritual concept unknown throughout man's bloody history. Ideology also has its roots in theology. Materialism/secular humanism such as Marxism, is at war with Christianity, thus the essence of today's battles is spiritual.

Romans 13, above, is a dissertation about hard core politics. The stakes of the war, if the victor be Marxism - are death, destruction, misery, enslavement for Americans.

If the victor be Christianity, the outflowing will be personal freedom, subordination of government to again become the servant of America's citizens as ordained by God, not their master; and blessings beyond measure from the Author of liberty, Jesus Christ.

The signs of our times: the imperative for Christian action

So successful has been America's Romans 13/anti "church & state" abandonment clergy, who have abdicated God's mandate to be "watchmen on the wall" (Ezekiel 33:6), that the Obama democrat administration has dazzled millions of Christians with the obvious tyrannical suppression of their God-given freedoms.

Rather than taking biblical corrective action, these would-be remnant Christians are retreating into "end-times, last-days" interpretations of "prophesy" according to Revelation. Many, being leaderless from their clergy, not knowing what to do, devote their time to praying for the "rapture", that they may participate in the great escape before they have to suffer the "tribulation".

America's call to action
​

America's call to action is obvious. Our prayers must become for Christ to forgive us; for Him to reveal His will to us and empower us with His Holy Spirit to become obedient to His will; and to carry out our Christian duty to our full measure, while still we have the freedom to do so, in His name

America: A Call to Greatness: HITLER, OBAMA and ROMANS 13: 1-4​

 

[jasoncran]

rather outdated, the fairness doctrine never passed, and so far while i am no fan of gay rights. some of that has happened but not much as they put it. one can still call being gay a sin.

the only things that christians have been forced to do on that issue is compromise their views in some states and the church as a whole in mass, and d.c. cant run adoption agency without letting gays adopt, thus a compromise.

 

[jasoncran]

And what happens when, before the invasion is supposedly coming....you volunteer and then the government decide to institute a state of MARTIAL LAW.

And you are commanded by your superiors to begin rounding up civilians and seperating families and loading them onto trains to be moved to FEMA emergency camps.

All this is for National Security OF COURSE.

Would you do it?

lovely , another hypothetical, has that happened, no! we can go round and round on this. at the current time and not in the future it may happen.

but i will say this to the uninformed

martial law is declared each time a national disaster hits, and curfews are set not to control person but for their safety. why? people loot! and also so that police and national guard can stop them.

but what would i a national guardsmen know.

i was also was leave from afghanistan and checked by a cop when the hurricanes hit florida. so i know what goes on a little more then some think on this stuff.

to answer that. since mr.strangelove is hyperviligant on his endtimes.

should we then not pay taxes? or obey laws? or call the cops?

the day will come where we will be rounded up, but lets not assume that its now and act prematurely.and i have signed the manhattan declaration.

last time i checked i can still vote, pettetion my goverment and whats this, ets, meaning i dont have to serve anymore in this mans army. i have less then one year left.

i just did riot control training, oh it was evil we learned how to beat civilians for fun, we trained to shoot them.why cause they wanted food.

now, if you believe that i have a bridge to sell you.and yes we did train for that ,we do it every yr but we are trained not to hurt any without a cause and we must have a reason to injure. we cant just start piling up on civilians.

if a riot breaks out and we must restore l&O, then that is what we do. stop the looting , and restore order along with the police.

 

[Strangelove]

lovely , another hypothetical, has that happened, no! we can go round and round on this. at the current time and not in the future it may happen. (glad you can admit it can happen)

but i will say this to the uninformed

martial law is declared each time a national disaster hits, and curfews are set not to control person but for their safety. why? people loot! and also so that police and national guard can stop them. (makes me feel so much better)

but what would i a national guardsmen know. (why do you think i'm talkin' to you?)

i was also was leave from afghanistan and checked by a cop when the hurricanes hit florida. so i know what goes on a little more then some think on this stuff.

to answer that. since mr.strangelove is hyperviligant on his endtimes.

should we then not pay taxes? or obey laws? or call the cops?

the day will come where we will be rounded up (by the forces of good or evil??), but lets not assume that its now and act prematurely.and i have signed the manhattan declaration.

last time i checked i can still vote, pettetion my goverment and whats this, ets, meaning i dont have to serve anymore in this mans army. i have less then one year left. (but you said you would volunteer...so would you or not?)

i just did riot control training, oh it was evil we learned how to beat civilians for fun, we trained to shoot them.why cause they wanted food. (eh?)

now, if you believe that i have a bridge to sell you. (huh?)and yes we did train for that ,we do it every yr but we are trained not to hurt any without a cause and we must have a reason to injure. we cant just start piling up on civilians.

if a riot breaks out and we must restore l&O, then that is what we do. stop the looting , and restore order along with the police.

Answer the question Jason.

What would you do if ordered by your superiors to EXTRACT PEOPLE FROM THEIR HOUSES. Not talking about looters and other criminals. I'm talking about taking people forcibly out of their homes and seperating children from their parents and loading them onto trains to be transported to FEMA camps.

These things are all sanctioned by the U.S. government under martial law and if you want me to break out the documentation then I will happily....so......

......What would you do?

Just cos it's hypothetical doesn't mean you dont have to think about it.

 

[jasoncran]

Answer the question Jason.

What would you do if ordered by your superiors to EXTRACT PEOPLE FROM THEIR HOUSES. Not talking about looters and other criminals. I'm talking about taking people forcibly out of their homes and seperating children from their parents and loading them onto trains to be transported to FEMA camps.

These things are all sanctioned by the U.S. government under martial law and if you want me to break out the documentation then I will happily....so......

......What would you do?

Just cos it's hypothetical doesn't mean you dont have to think about it.

what part of when a disaster hits martial is in effect dont you understand? did i not say that when the governor of the affected state declares a diaster he has at his discretion the means to cause curfews.

fema is less then 40 yrs and was created by president carter. where you not aware that martial in affect during hurricane andrew

my unit was there, and the stories of looting and so on, but odd no one pulled out and relocated.

i have learned not to use hypotheticals as much with end times, as i could a should a. i watch , i am well aware of power grabs, but when you say its this way for sure,

what are you going to say when its not that way at all.

keep in mind that your idea of forced relocation would have been most feasible during katrina, but it wasnt done.

nor in the my state which suffered more damage in 2004 then new orleans and all areas.

i will educate you on what fema does.

this: feds open up the purse to the affected state. and governor uses it to help people with food, shelter and water, and tarps and whatever else is needed.

it is not a first responder agency, nor does ride into the storms like the guard does.

i have worked with fema and know somethings about what they do.

i dont see the govt being able to force the citizen from his house till gun laws are enacted.

 

[jasoncran]

let me ask you this, you assumed that all govt areas run by the jews.

why then would pay taxes? or use cops. or so on.

i will deal with that order but so far, i dont see that nor will tell men not to serve thier country based on conjecture and hypothetical scenarios.

i was raised a jw, so i wont be told not to do this or that, as that leads back to cultisms.

why go to college if they might brainswash you etc.?

its my believe that people will willingly surrender themselves to the ac not be forced to follow him, just as the case with hitler. sure he used force, but the ac will much more able to get persons to follow those that dont will die. but that is for another topic

please quit trying to tie in the noahides laws to every thing. lewis asked a simple question can one serve in the military, yes or no.

 

[Strangelove]

what part of when a disaster hits martial is in effect dont you understand?

did i not say that when the governor of the affected state declares a diaster he has at his discretion the means to cause curfews.

So whats that got to do with anything? I'm well aware that martial law has been used but just cos thay havn't exploited the powers to the fullest YET doesnt mean that they wont in the future.

fema is less then 40 yrs and was created by president carter. where you not aware that martial in affect during hurricane andrew

Again...irrelevant.

my unit was there, and the stories of looting and so on, but odd no one pulled out and relocated.

i have learned not to use hypotheticals as much with end times, as i could a should a. i watch , i am well aware of power grabs, but when you say its this way for sure, (didnt you hypothetically think about what would happen when you went to war in Afghan. and came face to face with Taliban that you would have to shoot and kill?)

what are you going to say when its not that way at all. (what are you gonna say when it is that way and YOU are right in the middle of it HELPING THEM!)

keep in mind that your idea of forced relocation would have been most feasible during katrina, but it wasnt done.

nor in the my state which suffered more damage in 2004 then new orleans and all areas.

Oh really? Maybe you'd like to take a look at this news report and tell me it didn't happen?

Its called DENIAL Jason.

[video=youtube;V4IbxUMWu8Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4IbxUMWu8Q&feature=player_embedded[/video]

And before you say the soldiers and National Guard members were "ordered" not to use force....consider how you would feel if you were a single mom with kids and 5 uniformed men with drawn weapons came into your house and told you to leave the building immediately and follow them. I call that force.

And if people wanted to defend their home with their own weapons they were allowed to use force as you see in the video. And legally they CAN use force in any circumstances under martial law as you well know. Really.....your argument that it won't ever happen cos it hasn't happened yet is nonsense. It's the same mentality germans had in the mid 30's. It wont happen. The government would never do it. Yeahhhh riiiiight! We all know how that ended up.

Listen......it's preperational conditioning. Psy ops. Civilians are being conditioned to expect to be relocated in national emergencies....NOT ONLY HURRICANES AND OTHER NATURAL DISASTERS....Obama can call the play whenever he wants, he is in essence a dictator now.

And the other side of the psy ops is to condition the SOLDIERS AND VOLUNTEERS. People like you my friend. They are conditioning you to give exactly the reaction that you are giving on this thread. "It'll never happen......it's hypothetical......national security........disaster management....looting......etc etc".....

They are conditioning you to oppress your own civilians. To feel comfortable going into peoples homes and relocating them. Listen to the soldier in the video. He says he cant believe what he's doing on his own soil to his own people. THATS WHY THEY NEED THE PSY OPS. These are all dress rehearsals in prep. for the real thing.

i will educate you on what fema does. (oh perrrlease)

this: feds open up the purse to the affected state. and governor uses it to help people with food, shelter and water, and tarps and whatever else is needed.

it is not a first responder agency, nor does ride into the storms like the guard does.

i have worked with fema and know somethings about what they do.

i dont see the govt being able to force the citizen from his house till gun laws are enacted.

I dont think you have the first idea about what FEMA does. You are simply the frontline on the ground. In Britain we call them Squaddies. They never know anything of the big picture only told what they need to be told in order that they do what is required of them......THE DIRTY WORK.

17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many
waters:

17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Tell me......we see from scripture that come the tribulations, all the kings (rulers) of the Earth will co-operate with the Whore. So why would you volunteer to work for your king come the endtimes if you KNOW that it will bear EVIL fruits?

Open your eyes Brother.

Revelation is not a joke. You need to think about how you are gonna fit into God's plan. What side are you gonna be on.

Some will be martyred for the witness of Christ.

Many will assist the whore in her BEAST SYSTEM to do the killing.

Where will Jasoncran fit in?​

 

[Adstar]

lewis asked a simple question can one serve in the military, yes or no.

Well i will Join the minority and Answer with a definite

No.


All Praise The Ancient Of Dats

 

[Strangelove]

Well i will Join the minority and Answer with a definite

No.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Amen.

Another Brother for Pre-emptive peace.

Anyone else?

 

[Strangelove]

let me ask you this, you assumed that all govt areas run by the jews.

I see my reply to your PM regarding antisemitim was a complete waste of time. I told you if you come out with statements like this I would regard them as personal attacks.

You have borne false witness to me. Either quote me where I have said that or apologise for this or I will report you....moderator or not. And if I have to report you to YOU I will! LOLZ.

.....and I'm still waiting for your apology for saying I have no Holy spirit abiding in me. That is an EXTREMELY insulting thing to say to a Christian.

why then would pay taxes? or use cops. or so on.

I dunno.....why would you? I dont.

i will deal with that order

What the.....? does that mean? Is that how things work in the military? You "deal" with the order?

but so far, i dont see that nor will tell men not to serve thier country based on conjecture and hypothetical scenarios.

Ok this is crucial. your job is NOT to serve your country. this is FALSE patriotism. You are serving your GOVERNMENT when you go to war!

Which is upside down anyway cos your government is supposed to serve YOU!

i was raised a jw, so i wont be told not to do this or that, as that leads back to cultisms.

Glad to see you got something positive from the JW's. My sister and her family are still trapped in that masonic-christian lovechild.

why go to college if they might brainswash you etc.?

Yup....homeschooling and study is the way to go in this age 4shizzle.

its my believe that people will willingly surrender themselves to the ac not be forced to follow him, just as the case with hitler. sure he used force, but the ac will much more able to get persons to follow those that dont will die. but that is for another topic

Indeed many will follow the AC AND THE BEAST willingly. BECAUSE THEY THINK THEY WILL BE DOING GODS WORK!

please quit trying to tie in the noahides laws to every thing. lewis asked a simple question can one serve in the military, yes or no.

NO!

I stated my position and went on to discuss things.....barely even mentioning the noahides by the way.

 

[Drew]

You would have a point if He spoke of a king that did this and then came to repentance for doing this wrong thing. But He didn't say anything about it being wrong. He just basically acknowledged, this is how kings make war-time decisions. Would this have been an opportunity for Him to denounce all wars? :yes

The following statement is from Jesus:

Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.

Did Jesus say it was "wrong" for the thief to steal another person's possessions?

No, he does not. Using your logic, if stealing possessions was wrong, Jesus would have taken the opportunity to denounce stealing.

We all know its wrong to steal - so you cannot say that just because Jesus uses the image of theft, and does not condemn it as wrong, this does not mean that Jesus endorses breaking in to people's houses, tying them up no less and stealing their stuff.

Same with the "war" image - just because Jesus does not condemn war when he uses the image does not mean that He endorses war.

Now this should end the discussion on this matter - we have a clear example of Jesus describing a sinful activity without naming it as such.

 

[Strangelove]

Tommy Franks: Martial Law Will Replace Constitution After Next Terror Attack

Newsmax

Gen. Tommy Franks says that if the United States is hit with a weapon of mass destruction that inflicts large casualties, the Constitution will likely be discarded in favor of a military form of government.

Franks, who successfully led the U.S. military operation to liberate Iraq, expressed his worries in an extensive interview he gave to the men’s lifestyle magazine Cigar Aficionado.

In the magazine’s December edition, the former commander of the military’s Central Command warned that if terrorists succeeded in using a weapon of mass destruction (WMD) against the U.S. or one of our allies, it would likely have catastrophic consequences for our cherished republican form of government.

Discussing the hypothetical dangers posed to the U.S. in the wake of Sept. 11, Franks said that the worst thing that could happen is if terrorists acquire and then use a biological, chemical or nuclear weapon that inflicts heavy casualties.

If that happens, Franks said, ... the Western world, the free world, loses what it cherishes most, and that is freedom and liberty we’ve seen for a couple of hundred years in this grand experiment that we call democracy

Full story - http://www.prisonplanet.com/211103martiallaw.html

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

And remember folks....

ANYONE can plant a bomb and then blame it on others, as we've been discussing in the 9/11 thread.

For anyone thinking of joining the military, remember....theres a very good chance you'll be plying your trade on your own soil, dealing with your own citizens.

 

[Drew]

Hebrews chapter 11 - commonly called the Hall of Faith



Hebrews 11
(32) And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
(33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
(34) Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

This text only "supports" the legtimacy of war-making if it turns out these Old Testament wars were not a "special case" of God using war for a very specific purpose.

You cannot simply assume that because God endorsed war-making in the past, He does so now. The Bible story is an unfolding narrative - it is an account of God doing things in world. It is not a "handbook" of timeless moral teachings. So just because God approved of war in the past does not mean He does so now.

And, of course, I need to defend my position that the Old Testament wars were "special cases" and that God does not approve of war-making now.

But, you too, need to actually make a case that the "approval" or "praising" of war in the past, means that its still legitimate.