Should Christians Fight In Wars ?

[Drew]

You are kidding right, and you say it would still be wrong huh, are you kidding me.
It would still be wrong to defend yourself or your family, what is wrong with you man ?

Lewis, I am not necessarily saying that your ultimate conclusion is wrong, but you seem to ground your position in the common sense notion that one should, if necessary, use violence to defend your loved ones.

Even though I entirely empathize with this "common sense" argument, it needs to be pointed out that "common sense" does not always line up with the requirements of being a member of God's kingdom. Jesus' disciples loved him. Yet, according to Jesus, they did not fight to secure His freedom.

Was this because Jesus did not want anyone to interfere with his need to go to the cross? No. Jesus tells us - the disciples did not fight because of the nature of the kingdom that Jesus is intiating:

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place

"Common sense" ideas - like fighting to save the lives of others - may not, after all, have a place in the in-breaking kingdom of God.

 

[Sissy]

Originally Posted by Sissy
Hebrews chapter 11 - commonly called the Hall of Faith



Hebrews 11
(32) And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:
(33) Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
(34) Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens.

This text only "supports" the legtimacy of war-making if it turns out these Old Testament wars were not a "special case" of God using war for a very specific purpose.

Any war can be seen as a "special case".

You cannot simply assume that because God endorsed war-making in the past, He does so now.

You cannot simply assume that because God endorsed war-making in the past, He doesn't do so now.

The Bible story is an unfolding narrative - it is an account of God doing things in world.

Yep. And one of those things is war.

All those stories weren't written just to kill time until Christ came.
All those stories pointed to Christ, including the stories of war.

It is not a "handbook" of timeless moral teachings.

All things written were for our understanding.
In the OT, we have prophetic instances of God involved with both war and peace.
Which fits perfectly with the words of Solomon (or more correctly, the words of the Holy Spirit).

• Ecclesiastes 3

(1) To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
(2) A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
(3) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
(4) A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
(5) A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
(6) A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
(7) A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
​

The glory, power, and sovereignty of God is revealed in all the above.
Whether He plants or plucks up, His power is revealed.
Whether He tears down or builds up, His power is revealed.
Whether in peace or war, His power is revealed.

But, you too, need to actually make a case that the "approval" or "praising" of war in the past, means that its still legitimate.

Been doing that. And I will continue.
You have put God into a box of your own making, of how you want God to be, rather than what scripture says of Him.




The centurion.

• Matthew 8

(5) And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
(6) And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
(7) And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
(8) The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
(9) For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
(10) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
​

AS a soldier, Jesus said his faith was great.
Christ didn’t tell the centurion that he needed to quit his job.
In fact, there is not one instance of Christ or the apostles telling any soldier that they needed to quit their job.

 

[Mike]

Lewis, I am not necessarily saying that your ultimate conclusion is wrong, but you seem to ground your position in the common sense notion that one should, if necessary, use violence to defend your loved ones.

Even though I entirely empathize with this "common sense" argument, it needs to be pointed out that "common sense" does not always line up with the requirements of being a member of God's kingdom. Jesus' disciples loved him. Yet, according to Jesus, they did not fight to secure His freedom.

Was this because Jesus did not want anyone to interfere with his need to go to the cross? No. Jesus tells us - the disciples did not fight because of the nature of the kingdom that Jesus is intiating:

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place

"Common sense" ideas - like fighting to save the lives of others - may not, after all, have a place in the in-breaking kingdom of God.

:nod Drew, you make a good point here. We've disagreed on this since I joined (and long before that, I'm sure), so I would never enter into a conversation with you bent on changing your POV. I'll be checking out of this thread soon. I just don't like to spend a long time hitting a ball against the wall. :bounceball (couldn't resist :p ) But...

The centurion.

• Matthew 8

(5) And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
(6) And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
(7) And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
(8) The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
(9) For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
(10) When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
​

AS a soldier, Jesus said his faith was great.
Christ didn’t tell the centurion that he needed to quit his job.
In fact, there is not one instance of Christ or the apostles telling any soldier that they needed to quit their job.

... very nicely said, Sissy! Jesus wasn't hesitant to tell the woman at the well what she needed to do. Drew you might say, 'cause you've said before, Jesus can name every sin in all cases, but this seems a rather obvious place for Him to advise him to "lay down his sword".

 

[Strangelove]

So much focus on the OT Sissy to justify your position.

Ecclesiastes 3

(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.​

So theres a time to hate too is there? Post Christ?

You have put God into a box of your own making, of how you want God to be, rather than what scripture says of Him.

Did you really say this?? :
​

AS a soldier, Jesus said his faith was great.
Christ didn’t tell the centurion that he needed to quit his job.
In fact, there is not one instance of Christ or the apostles telling any soldier that they needed to quit their job.

Ya.....Jesus was commending the soldiers FAITH in his superiors Sissy and comparing it to the lack of faith in the populace of Isreal, not approving of his OCCUPATION.

Your really struggling here Sissy. It's not too late to reconsider your position.

 

[Drew]

Any war can be seen as a "special case".

Not the point: If it turns out that these "Old Testament" wars were called for God for a very specific reason that was relevant in the past, but is not relevant today, then you cannot, legitimately anyway, assume that God approves of war-making.

 

[Drew]

You cannot simply assume that because God endorsed war-making in the past, He doesn't do so now.

Please read my posts more carefully - I have already clearly stated that I agree that I need to defend my position that the "Old Testament" wars were "special cases". I just have not had the time to do so yet.

 

[Drew]

The Bible story is an unfolding narrative - it is an account of God doing things in world.

Yep. And one of those things is war.

All those stories weren't written just to kill time until Christ came.
All those stories pointed to Christ, including the stories of war.

You are begging the very question at issue. Although I have not had time to explain more fully, my point was this: Since the bible is an unfolding narrative, it could indeed turn out to be the case that the "Old Testament" wars were something God had no choice but to call for to serve a particular need in the unfolding narrative. With that need fulfilled, it is entirely possible that God does not approve of war-making beyond that point.

The general point being that, in any unfolding story, you cannot assume that all elements are "timeless" - that what was "OK" in the past is OK now.

 

[Drew]

AS a soldier, Jesus said his faith was great.
Christ didn’t tell the centurion that he needed to quit his job.
In fact, there is not one instance of Christ or the apostles telling any soldier that they needed to quit their job.

One cannot use the fact that Jesus does not explicitly critique a certain behaviour (that He encounters or discusses) as grounds for concluding that he therefore approves of the behaviour. Therefore, when Jesus appeals to a war image, and does not comment that “war is immoralâ€, we cannot conclude, legitimately anyway, that Jesus endorses war. This principle is illustrated by the illustration involving the thief needing to bind the owner of the house before he steals all his stuff. One need not be Stephen Hawking to understand that the behaviour of tying up people and taking their stuff is decidedly wrong, even though Jesus does not say this when he uses the image. It is highly unrealistic to expect that Jesus is going to comment on the morality of every behaviour he encounters or discusses – the man would never stop talking if that were the case.<O:p</O:p

 

[Drew]

... very nicely said, Sissy! Jesus wasn't hesitant to tell the woman at the well what she needed to do. Drew you might say, 'cause you've said before, Jesus can name every sin in all cases, but this seems a rather obvious place for Him to advise him to "lay down his sword".

Not a good argument. Yes Jesus comments about the morality of the woman at the well. But that is hardly a basis for concluding that Jesus will always comment on the morality of every behavoiur He encounters or describes.

Besides, we have the example where Jesus talks about a thief binding the owner of a house before stealing his stuff - clearly this behaviour is immoral, but Jesus does not condemn it as such. So I simply do not see how you guys have any case here.

This is really not difficult - if I comment that a certain woman is beautiful, does this mean that if I then don't comment on the appearance of another woman, that I therefore think that second woman is not beautiful.

 

[Strangelove]

It is highly unrealistic to expect that Jesus is going to comment on the morality of every behaviour he encounters or discusses – the man would never stop talking if that were the case.<O:p</O:p

LOLZ!

 

[Elijah674]

Not a good argument. Yes Jesus comments about the morality of the woman at the well. But that is hardly a basis for concluding that Jesus will always comment on the morality of every behavoiur He encounters or describes.

Besides, we have the example where Jesus talks about a thief binding the owner of a house before stealing his stuff - clearly this behaviour is immoral, but Jesus does not condemn it as such. So I simply do not see how you guys have any case here.

This is really not difficult - if I comment that a certain woman is beautiful, does this mean that if I then don't comment on the appearance of another woman, that I therefore think that second woman is not beautiful.

Acts 5:27 [BACK ON TRACK]

[27] And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
[28] Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
[29] Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, [We ought to obey God rather than men.]

And Rom. 13 will be shown for just the duty to man, with ceasars powers given by Christ but not in religion. Yet killing a possible fellow man because the government says so?? He might even be a Christian, huh? 'me' says no thanks!
--Elijah

 

[Sissy]

One cannot use the fact that Jesus does not explicitly critique a certain behaviour (that He encounters or discusses) as grounds for concluding that he therefore approves of the behaviour. Therefore, when Jesus appeals to a war image, and does not comment that “war is immoralâ€, we cannot conclude, legitimately anyway, that Jesus endorses war.

Except that nowhere in scripture does God tell a soldier that they should not be a soldier. Neither in the OT or the NT.

But you seems content to step in His shoes and claim something He never did.
Why is that?

This principle is illustrated by the illustration involving the thief needing to bind the owner of the house before he steals all his stuff. One need not be Stephen Hawking to understand that the behaviour of tying up people and taking their stuff is decidedly wrong, even though Jesus does not say this when he uses the image.

We don't have to have God tell every individual he spoke with of their right and wrong doings, as long as God has said elsewhere what is right and wrong.
Theft was definitely said by God to be wrong.

What we don't find anywhere is God ever saying a soldier should quit being a soldier.

It is highly unrealistic to expect that Jesus is going to comment on the morality of every behaviour he encounters or discusses – the man would never stop talking if that were the case.<o>:p</o>:p

LOL! Ain't that the truth!

 

[Sissy]

So much focus on the OT Sissy to justify your position.

That's where Paul told the Bereans to search to see if what Paul [or anyone else) was telling them was the truth.

It is what Stephen used to make his case that Jesus was indeed the awaited Messiah.

It is also where Jesus says it is written of Him.

So theres a time to hate too is there? Post Christ?

Yes.

But you have to understand that "hate" in scripture does not have the modern day meaning we think of in English.

In the OT it says that God loved Jacob and hated Esau. (Rom 9:13)
But God did not "hate" Esau in our English language usage.
God blessed Esau and made him prosperous.
But He chose Jacob OVER Esau.

In the NT we are told that we should "hate" mother, brother, etc., or we cannot be a follower of Christ. (Luke 14:26)
Obviously we are not to "hate" our mother in the English language usage, but we are to choose Christ OVER our mother.

Ya.....Jesus was commending the soldiers FAITH in his superiors Sissy and comparing it to the lack of faith in the populace of Isreal, not approving of his OCCUPATION.

Exactly. Jesus was commending his faith.
He had great faith WHILE he was a soldier.
He was faithful WHILE he was a soldier.

 

[Sissy]

Not the point: If it turns out that these "Old Testament" wars were called for God for a very specific reason that was relevant in the past, but is not relevant today, then you cannot, legitimately anyway, assume that God approves of war-making.

There is no power of authority on earth that has not been given that authority of power by God.
Even the Caesars and Roman army that was during the time of Christ.

 

[Sissy]

Christ also tells us that there will be wars and rumors of wars.
But not one time does Christ tell any believer they should not be a soldier.

 

[Adstar]

In the OT God used the Hebrews time and time again as implements of His wrath upon nations. But only When God blessed the war usually by His ordering them to attack.

Time and time again when ever the Hebrews took it upon themselves the start a war they where soundly defeated or if they did not follow Gods detailed instructions in how they where to pursue the battle they also suffered as a result.

So engaging in War is only OK when the Lord gives you order to fight.

Now Jesus gave clear teachings in His beatitudes speech that we where not to fight and kill our enemies but where to Love them. You do not love your enemies by putting a bullet in their heads.

Matthew 5:38-39
38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.


Matthew 5: 43-48
43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Jesus allowed Himself to be killed and blessed those who where killing Him and prayed for them to be forgiven. And a wonderful thing happened on the day of Pentecost when many of these men believed in Jesus and took hold of His grace.

Acts 2
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.â€
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?â€
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.â€
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.†41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

3000 men forgiven. The Grace of the Messiah Jesus given to those who killed Him. These scriptures are the standard set for followers of Jesus. We Live in an age of grace when The Lord has ordered us to love our enemies and be messengers of His grace to all men even those who would kill us.

The letters of the apostles also confirm the truth:

Romans 12:17-21
17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.



II Corinthians 10:3,4
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."



Ephesians 6:12
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."



Ephesians 6:4
"And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord."



Revelation 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.



Why do you think thousands of the early Christians went to their executions like lambs to the slaughter? Why did they not resist when they where thrown to the lions in the coliseums of the roman empire? Why because they knew that they where to love their enemies even unto death.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[jasoncran]

In the OT God used the Hebrews time and time again as implements of His wrath upon nations. But only When God blessed the war usually by His ordering them to attack.

Time and time again when ever the Hebrews took it upon themselves the start a war they where soundly defeated or if they did not follow Gods detailed instructions in how they where to pursue the battle they also suffered as a result.

So engaging in War is only OK when the Lord gives you order to fight.

Now Jesus gave clear teachings in His beatitudes speech that we where not to fight and kill our enemies but where to Love them. You do not love your enemies by putting a bullet in their heads.

Matthew 5:38-39
38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.


Matthew 5: 43-48
43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Jesus allowed Himself to be killed and blessed those who where killing Him and prayed for them to be forgiven. And a wonderful thing happened on the day of Pentecost when many of these men believed in Jesus and took hold of His grace.

Acts 2
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.â€
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?â€
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.â€
40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.†41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

3000 men forgiven. The Grace of the Messiah Jesus given to those who killed Him. These scriptures are the standard set for followers of Jesus. We Live in an age of grace when The Lord has ordered us to love our enemies and be messengers of His grace to all men even those who would kill us.

The letters of the apostles also confirm the truth:

Romans 12:17-21
17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.



II Corinthians 10:3,4
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."



Ephesians 6:12
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."



Ephesians 6:4
"And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord."



Revelation 13:10
He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.



Why do you think thousands of the early Christians went to their executions like lambs to the slaughter? Why did they not resist when they where thrown to the lions in the coliseums of the roman empire? Why because they knew that they where to love their enemies even unto death.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

ok, then we should let the evil men just kill the innocents kids and those that are not a threat.

or not call in the law when we are being attacked. paul used his roman citizenship to save himself. and the romans legions were the law and did enforce the peace if they had to, they usually deferred to the local native courts and authority first then came in when need be.


why then the did the lord not tell the roman soldiers not to be a soldier? just not to treat men harshly, as was the custom.

 

[Adstar]

ok, then we should let the evil men just kill the innocents kids and those that are not a threat.

I would try to prevent the killing but not by killing the killer. Innocent Childeren have eternity with God if they are killed. But what happens the the "evil men" when i kill them? Will they have eternity with God? Will they be saved?

This may sound strange to you but the death of a Christian is not a tradgedy, But the death of a man who is in rebellion against God is indeed a tradgedy an eternal tradgedy, especally when you and i know a murderer can be forgiven and have eternal life thought Jesus. Where there is life there is hope. Kill that man and you take away any hope for Him.

or not call in the law when we are being attacked. paul used his roman citizenship to save himself. and the romans legions were the law and did enforce the peace if they had to, they usually deferred to the local native courts and authority first then came in when need be..

Not 1 of those lawmen where Christians and they did not have to kill the men who where threatening Paul. Paul's time to die was not there and then He had a longer mission to complete. If the Holy Spirit moved me to do likewise i would. But again no one was killed in that incident.

why then the did the lord not tell the roman soldiers not to be a soldier? just not to treat men harshly, as was the custom.

Because at that time the message of Jesus was being given to the Jewish people. Not to the gentiles.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Strangelove]

Except that nowhere in scripture does God tell a soldier that they should not be a soldier. Neither in the OT or the NT.

Yes because He's covered any and ALL occupations of that type with His commandment to Love others. He then went on to clarify and say LOVE YOU ENEMIES. So there can be no confusion. He also told us not to kill our fellow man. I mean.....you just cant make the argument that killing ANYONE is ok.

Huh? Love your enemies? Ya...He really said that. I couldn't believe it when I first read it either but...sorry....it stands and when you really think about it.....it's right. Just gonna have to face it. It's all about the Kingdom of God. Simples.

We don't have to have God tell every individual he spoke with of their right and wrong doings, as long as God has said elsewhere what is right and wrong.
Theft was definitely said by God to be wrong.

Didn't He say killing was wrong?

What we don't find anywhere is God ever saying a soldier should quit being a soldier.

Come on Sis.

 

[Strangelove]

That's where Paul told the Bereans to search to see if what Paul [or anyone else) was telling them was the truth.

It is what Stephen used to make his case that Jesus was indeed the awaited Messiah.

It is also where Jesus says it is written of Him.

So are we not allowed to use the NT for our guidance now?

What would Paul have wanted? If he was alive now where would he advise we look for our moral guidance?

In the NT we are told that we should "hate" mother, brother, etc., or we cannot be a follower of Christ. (Luke 14:26)
Obviously we are not to "hate" our mother in the English language usage, but we are to choose Christ OVER our mother.

I stand corrected. Wrong example by me. We are to hate,,,,,..///// but it doesnt really mean hate.

Exactly. Jesus was commending his faith.
He had great faith WHILE he was a soldier.
He was faithful WHILE he was a soldier.

And?

Sissy. Your argument is that Jesus didnt tell the soldier that he should quit.

He also didn't approve of him being a soldier He merely noted a positive characteristic.

So we must look elsewhere to find out whether killing is right or wrong.