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Should/Do radical Christians exist?

We know that Jesus was probably a carpenter by trade. What I want you to show me is he worked for his own material provisions during his three year ministry. If I'm not mistaken, the Bible speaks of women providing his material needs.

How much money was Jesus having or collected during his ministry? Don't you see that a fish had to provide taxes for him?

Paul himself tells us he did not use his right to be materially provided for, but chose to forgo that right and provide for himself. This is what prompted his whole teaching on how ministers of the gospel are to be compensated for ministering the gospel in the first place.

No. Wrong understanding of Scripture. I had explained better in my reply at #80

felix said:
Do not make this body of Christ, a spiritual house built with living stones as a house of merchandise.
Whether it be the literal or spiritual house of God, that is for each individual to judge in himself and decide where the boundaries should be in that regard. Don't declare guilt (condemn) where you have neither the knowledge nor the authority to do so.
Now, this whip,judgment and knowledge is not from me but Christ Himself.
  • Did not Christ mention not to make the Temple of God a house of merchandise?
  • Did not Christ mention that the Temple of God if destroyed will rise it again in 3 days referring to His own body?
  • Are not we the body of Christ?
How can I say I have His Spirit and yet not take a whip to drive the merchants out of the body of Christ as He did?
 
So, please tell me what the wages are in Luke 10. Why don't you still understand that Jesus doesn't what the worker to carry money bag?

Paul wasn't talking about getting paid or receiving any wages for what he is doing. Did you read v6,
Or [is it] only Barnabas and I [who] have no right to refrain from working?

He is questioning if he had no rights to work elsewhere - not getting wages.

(1Tim 5:18) For the Scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain," and, "The laborer [is] worthy of his wages."

This is one of the most misunderstood verse ever for most of them who preach are paid, so they take this to justify themselves.

The verse before (v17) and the verse after (v19) speaks about giving honor to elders and not accuse an elder unless there is 2-3 witness. The Elder is going God's work for God. 'Muzzle an ox' is stopping it from eating while it is working. So, what is the food and what is the work of God? John 6:29, John 4:34 - People believing in Christ and doing His will. Paul is writing about not to silence the Elder by not honoring or accusing him (when writing to Timothy). This verse has nothing to do with the Elder making a living. The next verse in other location after referring to 'muzzle an ox' immediately speaking (1Cor 9:11) about not expecting to reaping material things. How can you consider 'Muzzle an ox' to making a living when it is referring not to silence the Elder when he is working for God?

In fact, the entire chapter of 1 Cor 9 speaks about not expecting anything worldly nor supporting anything like making a living.

Today's hirelings had not only twisted this to make it worldly but also preach it as worldly to justify their work.




Earning from gospel work is not a God given right. If it is a God given right, then Christ must have done it. Neither Christ, nor John the baptist and none of the apostles and disciples of Christ ever lived their living from doing gospel work.



Nope. It's unbiblical and we don't see it clearly in Bible. The wages for gospel work must be according to how Christ defines in Luke 10.




If I had to follow Christ, I must take a whip and drive ALL merchants from the Temple of God exactly as Christ did - referred as His Body - which is nothing but the true bride of Christ, His Church.


Lets see, they were ALL SLEEPING in Matt. 25 :sleep

And these ones of Matt. 23 are being told by Christ that His Tithes & Offerings are done away with? Perhaps you know what Christ has said here which is abstract?
Matt. 23
[23] Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and [not to leave the other undone].

OR..

Matt. 23
[1] Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
[2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
[3] [[All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;]] but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

And Mal. 4..

[6] For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
(and see Heb.13 for for Our Jesus Christ that is the same foe ever! + 'yesterday!')

[7] Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
[8] Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. (both!)


[9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
[10] Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

OK: Who believes God?? :wall: !

Now, 'i' will admit that one could ROB GOD by who they support with His %10 + offerings! Even in Rev. 18:4 we find a commanded mandate to not be 'yoked in membership' with the many daughters of the whore mother of Rev. 17:1-5, let alone support them!

Yet one best be carful what they teach that 'hinders' the Gospel of God!
1 Cor. 9
[3] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[4] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[5] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[6] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?


1 Tim. 5
[17] Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
[18] For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.


--Elijah
 
Elijah,

Tithe is for Levites for they did not have any share among his brothers when Joshua divided the land and Law is only for Jews.

According to NT/new covenant and as per great commission, all believers in Christ are laborers for Christ doing his work. In NT times, there is only freewill offering to poor & needy no tithe.

If you give tithes and follow the law, you do an abominable thing in the sight of the Lord. Refer Old Covenant – Abomination to God

So, don't even compare levites to pastors (or elders) which is completely wrong.

1 Cor. 9 speaks about Paul expecting spiritual things from the church and not fleshy things. 'do not muzzle the ox' is in both 1 Cor. 9 and 1 Tim. 5 refers to not silencing the elder by not honoring or accusing him when he is laboring for God. This has nothing to do with making a living by preaching the gospel.

For 1 Cor. 9 and 1 Tim. 5, please refer my previous posts.
 
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Radical Christians? Anyone? Anyone?

Feel free to discuss the off-topic points of CCLI and earnings off ministries etc in their own thread. :yes
 
Radical Christians? Anyone? Anyone?

Feel free to discuss the off-topic points of CCLI and earnings off ministries etc in their own thread. :yes
But felix is giving us an example of radical Christians...through his own radical doctrine.

'Radical' seems to be characterized (as far as it's negative connotation anyway) by its conspiratorial underpinnings and the 'everybody's out to get us/ you can't trust anybody' mentality.
 
I'm just going to respond to the title of this thread: Yes, radical Christians Exist, and this forum is full of them. No, they should not. Now to get out of here...
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Elijah,

Tithe is for Levites for they did not have any share among his brothers when Joshua divided the land and Law is only for Jews.

According to NT/new covenant and as per great commission, all believers in Christ are laborers for Christ doing his work. In NT times, there is only freewill offering to poor & needy no tithe.

If you give tithes and follow the law, you do an abominable thing in the sight of the Lord. Refer Old Covenant – Abomination to God

So, don't even compare levites to pastors (or elders) which is completely wrong.

1 Cor. 9 speaks about Paul expecting spiritual things from the church and not fleshy things. 'do not muzzle the ox' is in both 1 Cor. 9 and 1 Tim. 5 refers to not silencing the elder by not honoring or accusing him when he is laboring for God. This has nothing to do with making a living by preaching the gospel.

For 1 Cor. 9 and 1 Tim. 5, please refer my previous posts.

Nothing personal intended. But there is no way that 'i' agree with your posting.;)
Call me 'radical' if you like!:thumbsup

I see Christ leaving His Matt. 18:17-18 'Authority' for His obedient church. (surely conditional as Rev. 2:5 points out) None the less its support was built on His unchanging WORD! In Eph. 4 11-16 we find that surely it is not the 'full of Christ' yet! (ibid 13)

[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

[13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
[14] That we henceforth [[be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;]]
[15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

[16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

OK: Let me just again say, that we are not there yet!:sad And surely the thought of.. Should/Do radical Christians exist? is having me believing that such wordings seen in Rev. 12 about satan with several names is the way to locate him throughout Christs Word! And the CHURCH of Christ?? Wow! Some do not want to support it with GOD'S OWN TITHE?? (+ offerings) But also the word of singular church applies to just the NT on?? Again, 'i' am so liberal that I do not think so!;)

Acts 7:38 has Stephen being executed & filled with the Holy Spirit & 'documenting' that 'This is He that was in the church in the wilderness..'
And this CHURCH in Ps. 77:13 is identified... 'Thy way, O God, is in the Sanctuary.' (another name, huh!)

Anyway the point being.. is who cares about what it is 'reverently' called? As long as the name is identified as the Lord's place of worship?? Temple, Vineyard, HOUSE such as seen in Isa. 5.

But you post that the place to WORSHIP CHRIST has now changed in the N.T. and that the Lord's REQUIRED SUPPORT with His 10% + offerings has now been changed! Yet, it is He who documents that He does not change! With Mal. 4:6-9 even has an curse seen if one is not faithful. +
Heb. 13
[7] Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Regardless.. for me?? I will continue on BELIEVING as 'i' do, and call me as you wish!:thumbsup (Matt. 10:25 if need be?) But 'LIBERAL or RADICAL' does not sound to bad as seen so far here.

--Elijah
 
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