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Should we obey church leadership, or the Holy Spirit?

Have God's miracles ceased? No. Every person who is saved is a miracle. But healings and resurrections? Healings, perhaps, occasionally occur, but there are no resurrections, no feeding of many thousands from a child's lunch, no withering plants with a word, no instant calming of sea storms with a word, no walking on water, as Jesus did.
Those miracles had specific and prophetic implications, they were manifestation of Jesus's messiahship. Feeding the 4000 and then 5000, for instance, was a replay of the manna from heaven in the wilderness; walking on water and calming the storm symbolized his authority over all nations which are the tumultuous water. These cannot be reproduced because they were unique to Jesus. A simple fact in the gospel accounts is, most people acknowledged Jesus as the messiah not because any of his teachings, but because of the miracles he performed, Nicodemus is a good example: “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” (Jn. 3:2) Same sentiment was expressed among other phirasees. These miracles cannot be reproduced because there was no other messiah. There can be other kinds of miracles from God, but not these specific ones. Anyone who attempts to reproduce these miracles must be a false christ who's challenging the real messiah's authority.
 
Those miracles had specific and prophetic implications, they were manifestation of Jesus's messiahship. Feeding the 4000 and then 5000, for instance, was a replay of the manna from heaven in the wilderness; walking on water and calming the storm symbolized his authority over all nations which are the tumultuous water. These cannot be reproduced because they were unique to Jesus. A simple fact in the gospel accounts is, most people acknowledged Jesus as the messiah not because any of his teachings, but because of the miracles he performed, Nicodemus is a good example: “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” (Jn. 3:2) Same sentiment was expressed among other phirasees. These miracles cannot be reproduced because there was no other messiah. There can be other kinds of miracles from God, but not these specific ones. Anyone who attempts to reproduce these miracles must be a false christ who's challenging the real messiah's authority.
There is too much emphasis in this thread about physical miracles happening during the time of Christ. Yet one main miracle did not happen, which would have been the acceptance of Christ by the Jews as the Messiah at the time. They let him be crucified instead. Why did it not happen? Because it would have required spiritual miracles, the conversion of a whole mass of hardhearted people at once. Christ knew this and knew his own people would let him down, for they would get an emotional kick out of seeing a miracle and then forget about it three days later.

What about spiritual miracles like the conversion of sinners into faith in these two thousand years? From Luke 15:10 "Just so, I tell you there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The Holy Spirit was sent to guide us into salvation, whose fruits we all know what are. Miracles happen all the time, but they are not physical but spiritual, and they happen because many embrace true faith which is the conviction of things not seen. The effects of these miracles shall have long lasting influences for eternity, unlike the miracles in Christ's first coming.

Christ spoke many parables, and they all allude to a spiritual reality, yet he had to make a comparison in physical terms so the apostles could understand. Christ is the second Adam, a spiritual Adam. Likewise, when we convert a miracle happens for the Holy Spirit dwells in us and a whole spiritual vista opens to us. We are given a second chance, a spiritual chance through the free gift of God.

Why do you people focus so much on the miracles during Jesus' first coming? Focus instead on all the miracles the elect shall do when Christ returns in his second coming, for the healing of the nations. All this talk in this debate is now all backward looking and we like Paul should instead focus on the faith which shall lead us to be with Christ during his second coming and onwards with all the miracles that shall proceed. Now this is the kick - if you refuse to believe that the second coming shall abound with miracles or that it shall ever happen then you are denying the influence of the Holy Spirit in the approaching second coming. And that is an unpardonable sin. You are a vessel for evil and not for good, a sepulcher all whitewashed outside and full of dead bones inside. The Pharisees thought they were righteous and instead we know they were a brood of puffed up vipers. No love no faith no hope yet believing they were offering themselves pure before the Lord looking back to a covenant who soon would cease to exist. They played in Satan's playground. Want to make sure you left that playground? Follow the Holy Spirit and refuse to have anything to do with priests and pastors who are the modern-day Pharisees.
 
There is too much emphasis in this thread about physical miracles happening during the time of Christ. Yet one main miracle did not happen, which would have been the acceptance of Christ by the Jews as the Messiah at the time. They let him be crucified instead. Why did it not happen? Because it would have required spiritual miracles, the conversion of a whole mass of hardhearted people at once. Christ knew this and knew his own people would let him down, for they would get an emotional kick out of seeing a miracle and then forget about it three days later.

What about spiritual miracles like the conversion of sinners into faith in these two thousand years? From Luke 15:10 "Just so, I tell you there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The Holy Spirit was sent to guide us into salvation, whose fruits we all know what are. Miracles happen all the time, but they are not physical but spiritual, and they happen because many embrace true faith which is the conviction of things not seen. The effects of these miracles shall have long lasting influences for eternity, unlike the miracles in Christ's first coming.

Christ spoke many parables, and they all allude to a spiritual reality, yet he had to make a comparison in physical terms so the apostles could understand. Christ is the second Adam, a spiritual Adam. Likewise, when we convert a miracle happens for the Holy Spirit dwells in us and a whole spiritual vista opens to us. We are given a second chance, a spiritual chance through the free gift of God.

Why do you people focus so much on the miracles during Jesus' first coming? Focus instead on all the miracles the elect shall do when Christ returns in his second coming, for the healing of the nations. All this talk in this debate is now all backward looking and we like Paul should instead focus on the faith which shall lead us to be with Christ during his second coming and onwards with all the miracles that shall proceed. Now this is the kick - if you refuse to believe that the second coming shall abound with miracles or that it shall ever happen then you are denying the influence of the Holy Spirit in the approaching second coming. And that is an unpardonable sin. You are a vessel for evil and not for good, a sepulcher all whitewashed outside and full of dead bones inside. The Pharisees thought they were righteous and instead we know they were a brood of puffed up vipers. No love no faith no hope yet believing they were offering themselves pure before the Lord looking back to a covenant who soon would cease to exist. They played in Satan's playground. Want to make sure you left that playground? Follow the Holy Spirit and refuse to have anything to do with priests and pastors who are the modern-day Pharisees.
Do not "spiritualize". Spiritualization is a slippery slope down to a pit of heresy. Miracle is miracle, conversion is conversion. In the biblical context, a miracle is strictly limited to physical miracles, the grandest of all was the Lord's resurrection, was that not bodily and physical? Didn't the Lord eat breakfast in front of his disciples and guide doubting Thomas to feel his nail scars? His second coming will be as bodily and physical as his first, anyone who "spiritualizes" that as "awakening of the inner consciousness" or stuffs like that is truly a vessel of evil. Yes, genuine spiritual conversions do happen, but they're often falsely explained away with secular psychological terms, the converts themselves may take credit for it, churches may take credit for it, man could be robbing God's glory, don't you see that? Only physical miracles are undeniably acts of God which no one can take credit for.
 
His second coming will be as bodily and physical as his first, anyone who "spiritualizes" that as "awakening of the inner consciousness" or stuffs like that is truly a vessel of evil
1 Corinthians 15:50 "I tell you this brothers; flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

True Christ let Thomas see his scars. Yet from Luke 24:31 "And their eyes were opened and they recognized him. And he vanished from their sight."

What is spiritual can take physical shape if need be. But not the other way around. When resurrected the elect shall be in spirit bodies much more glorious then during their physical lifetime. And if need be they shall also appear in physical form when they choose to after the resurrection.

I don't understand why you must label what I wrote an awakening of inner consciousness. You are looking back and finding some worldly doctrine to attach to what I wrote.

The way of Jesus is a personal relationship between Him and the man of faith as witnessed by the Holy Spirit.
The way of Satan is that of an organization - priests and pastors who have done zero work in their life lording over their fellow humans the path to salvation. Blind leading the blind.

I know what my choice is. Do you?
 
Do not "spiritualize". Spiritualization is a slippery slope down to a pit of heresy. Miracle is miracle, conversion is conversion. In the biblical context, a miracle is strictly limited to physical miracles, the grandest of all was the Lord's resurrection, was that not bodily and physical? Didn't the Lord eat breakfast in front of his disciples and guide doubting Thomas to feel his nail scars? His second coming will be as bodily and physical as his first, anyone who "spiritualizes" that as "awakening of the inner consciousness" or stuffs like that is truly a vessel of evil. Yes, genuine spiritual conversions do happen, but they're often falsely explained away with secular psychological terms, the converts themselves may take credit for it, churches may take credit for it, man could be robbing God's glory, don't you see that? Only physical miracles are undeniably acts of God which no one can take credit for.
By the way, I did not accuse anyone of being a vessel of evil unless: one denies the power and influence of the Holy Spirit in the events leading to the second coming of Christ. From 1 Peter 2:5 "You yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."

Do you bring spiritual gifts before the altar of God in third heaven? If so, I suggest you read Matthew 5:22-26 carefully. There you go, feel free to have the last words over me if you wish. I suggest you look forward though.
 
I don't understand why you must label what I wrote an awakening of inner consciousness. You are looking back and finding some worldly doctrine to attach to what I wrote.
When you denigrate the physical and praise the spiritual, that's a sign of false spirit. Apostle John didn't say that a false spirit denies Jesus is the messiah, Jesus is the only way to God, Jesus was resurrected, etc. No, none of those. There's one thumb of thumb to tell the Holy Spirit from false spirits - confessing that the Word had become FLESH. In 1 Cor. 15:50, the "imperishable" is still physical bodies in the Lord's physical kingdom on earth, we won't be raised in "spiritual bodies" - that's an oxymoron; we'll be raised in real, physical bodies in the same way the Lord himself was raised in a real, physical body.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. (1 Jn. 4:1-4)
 
Do you bring spiritual gifts before the altar of God in third heaven? If so, I suggest you read Matthew 5:22-26 carefully. There you go, feel free to have the last words over me if you wish. I suggest you look forward though.
Of course I look forward, we all must look forward. I believe the Lord will return in 2030s, the end is nigh.
 
Those miracles had specific and prophetic implications, they were manifestation of Jesus's messiahship. Feeding the 4000 and then 5000, for instance, was a replay of the manna from heaven in the wilderness; walking on water and calming the storm symbolized his authority over all nations which are the tumultuous water. These cannot be reproduced because they were unique to Jesus. A simple fact in the gospel accounts is, most people acknowledged Jesus as the messiah not because any of his teachings, but because of the miracles he performed, Nicodemus is a good example: “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” (Jn. 3:2) Same sentiment was expressed among other phirasees. These miracles cannot be reproduced because there was no other messiah. There can be other kinds of miracles from God, but not these specific ones. Anyone who attempts to reproduce these miracles must be a false christ who's challenging the real messiah's authority.

I remarked on the singular miracles of Christ because of the following Q&A statement:

"Has God's miracles stopped today as in the examples of Jesus supernaturally preforming them, no."

In this statement, it sounds to me like for_his_glory is suggesting that the miracles of Christ are still going on today. The odd miracle might happen, here and there, yes, but nothing on par with the miracles of Jesus, as I already pointed out.

In any case, I understand very well why no one else has walked on water, or resurrected people, or made a little bit of food multiply to feed thousands.
 
Moderator Note , No more "vessel of evil " about other members .

1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.
 
it is not simply about the messages in the dreams themselves. He uses their ambiguity to force us to draw closer to Him. I think that was the message being communicated when He told the disciples, "Do you not know even this parable?" The entire message was to say, "They are so far from God that I am deliberately trying to conceal the meanings from them, but I am NOT trying to conceal them from you, so why are you having such a hard time hearing Me? You are not yet close enough to understand and perceive as you should be."

Hmmm... It doesn't seem very plausible to me that Jesus obscured the meaning of his teachings because the hearts and minds of his audience were far away from him. Why speak to them at all if they would not understand him because of their distance from him? Why not just silently proceed to the cross, giving no hint as to who he was and what he had come to do? It seems a strange idea to me to think that Jesus purposely obscured his message from those who were already deaf and blind to it by virtue of their "distance" from him. Scripture offers a different reason:

John 12:37-40
37 Though he had done so many signs before them, they still did not believe in him,
38 so that the word spoken by the prophet Isaiah might be fulfilled: “Lord, who has believed what he heard from us, and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”
39 Therefore they could not believe. For again Isaiah said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, lest they see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, and turn, and I would heal them.”


Why didn't Jesus' own disciples better understand his teaching? I think part of the answer is revealed in this exchange between Peter and Jesus:

Matthew 16:21-23
21 From that time Jesus began to show His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised up on the third day.
22 Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "God forbid it, Lord! This shall never happen to You."
23 But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to Me; for you are not setting your mind on God's interests, but man's."


Jesus did not want to be hindered in his fulfillment of his Father's will by his own disciples and so he did not illuminate their minds and hearts fully to his atoning purpose. But, also, the disciples had grown up in an OT Jewish context, expecting a very different Messiah than Jesus turned out to be, thinking his kingdom an earthly one and his victorious rule to be temporal and political, and so they labored under the same resulting "hardness" toward the true Messiah as did their Jewish fellows. It was a testament to how deeply entrenched were the misconceptions concerning the Messiah the Jewish people had taken up that even the Twelve could not readily shake them off. Their difficulty in understanding, then, wasn't a matter of proximity to Jesus, of hearts not "tuned" to him, but of a well-set hardness of belief and thought, an entrenched way of thinking about the Messiah, that they could not set aside even after living with Jesus for three years.

I think you're kinda contradicting His teachings in Mark 4 here. You're also lumping Moses and Paul into the same category with Pharaoh and Balaam, and the former had very good hearing and encountered Him personally, whereas the latter two were extremely hard of hearing spiritually, and both were made examples of because of it...

I don't think you want to use the latter two as examples of the way God wishes to operate, and I think using the former two as examples is placing a HIGH demand on the body of Christ in general. I think He sends visions and dreams to the common believer, whereas He only speaks directly to a select few, so maybe neither group do the discussion much good... but let me move on to your last paragraph.

I only lump together Moses and Balaam, Paul and Pharaoh, insofar as they were all clearly communicated to by God when they did not expect to hear from Him directly and were not living in a manner that was particularly conducive to such an experience. Moses was not as far gone as Pharaoh or Balaam when he encountered the burning bush, but there was nothing especially spiritual about his living that warranted hearing from God, either. In fact, Moses was a murderer-in-hiding, living in obscurity on the back side of the desert when God confronted him. In any case, my point was that God did not need someone to be "near" Him in their heart and mind, living well before Him, in order to communicate clearly to them. If He did not require this in the record of the OT, why should we make it a stipulation now to "hearing" Him?

My response here would be that I think you are seeing this too much through the lens of 21st century Christianity. Look at how many visions and dreams they had. In the space of just the books of the NT, you have numerous references to them. Paul had a vision of Third Heaven, John had a vision of the future that stretches 22 Chapters in the Book of Revelation, Peter had a vision that led to the first preaching of the gospel to Gentiles, Joseph had his dream of taking Mary and the Christ child to Egypt, Paul experienced seeing Christ on the road to Damascus, Paul also had a vision of being told to go to Macedonia and not Asia, Stephen saw a vision of Christ seated at the right hand of God when standing before the Sanhedrin, and Pilate's wife even had a dream that he should not crucify Christ, and it goes on and on.

But this doesn't take into account the summary nature of the New Testament.

John 21:25
25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.


The events recounted in the NT do so in a condensed manner, many years often standing between those experiences you've listed in the quotation above. Did Joseph have frequent directive dreams from God during his life? We read only of two in Christ's infancy, no more. How about Stephen? Was it common for him to have the sort of vision he had at his end? Scripture gives no hint that this was the case. It seems to me, anyway, that his vision had to do with his being martyred for the faith, a special dispensation of divine comfort in the midst of a brutal death. Paul only spoke of a single experience of the "third heaven" (for which God gave him his enduring "thorn in the flesh"), though he did have a series of dreams/visions. Paul is pretty unique in this respect, actually, no other person in the NT having such a collection of experiences so frequently. Not even John or Peter are reported in the NT to have had such a string of directive visions/dreams as Paul, each of them having only a single vision/dream recorded in the NT (Peter, the sheet full of unclean animals, and John's Revelation). Regardless, the NT in its condensed summary style gives the impression that dreams and visions were commonplace, but this isn't actually the case upon closer inspection. And so, I don't see that the Christian person should expect God to communicate commonly with them by such means - especially when they already have the entirely sufficient word of God.
 
Focus instead on all the miracles the elect shall do when Christ returns in his second coming, for the healing of the nations.
Not likely helpful, eh ?

Focus on Jesus Today, Tomorrow, Everyday. We follow Jesus, not miracles. Miracles follow Jesus too, right ? There's no shortage of miracles TODAY - whether true miracles of and from God, or deceptive miracles meant to bring destruction.
 
Yet that's the problem


You would strongly disagree that women can't be pastors
Nor deacons

Pre mil is wrong .
Sprinkling baptism is wrong ,yet the didache mentions using water by any means. The sea when calm is the most preferred,then rivers ,lakes ,ponds ,and finally sprinkling.

I don't agree with sprinkling but it's simply not a separation issue for me.

Some teach based upon their bias baptism saves .I disagree but it's not a salvinic issue .
Women Pastors, premil and baptism are three different topics which I will not address here, but if you would like to make three different topics on this tag me into them. There would be way to much for me to try and fit here.
 
Women Pastors, premil and baptism are three different topics which I will not address here, but if you would like to make three different topics on this tag me into them. There would be way to much for me to try and fit here.
They are secondary and that is relevant .the fact you believe differently and don't call those that disagree heretics is exactly my.point

If you tried to be a teacher of men in my church you likely would leave
 
Are spiritual gifts still a thing? Of course - just not so much of the miraculous sort. Oh, there is still much unintelligible monkey-babbling, and charlatans pretending to miraculous healings, and folks laying claim to every sort of dream and vision that will confer upon them notoriety among, and power over, gullible, sensual Christians, but the truly spiritually beneficial, Church-edifying gifts of the Spirit - preaching, teaching, faith, hospitality, service, mercy, exhortation, etc. - are still distributed to believers as the Spirit wills.
So the church members gather around and a toddler girl is prayed for , for a healing of a condition the doctor said she would have to get surgery for . Much to the surprise and consternation of the doctor the toddler no longer needed surgery after being prayed for , she was healed . Now all the church members hear about this , Praise God .
Many witnesses on this healing .

Now Tenchi explain how this was NOT truly spiritually beneficial ?
 
So the church members gather around and a toddler girl is prayed for , for a healing of a condition the doctor said she would have to get surgery for . Much to the surprise and consternation of the doctor the toddler no longer needed surgery after being prayed for , she was healed . Now all the church members hear about this , Praise God .
Many witnesses on this healing .

Now @Tenchi explain how this was NOT truly spiritually beneficial ?

Would God have been less deserving of praise if He hadn't healed the toddler (if that is truly what happened)? Does God do anything less than the best thing whatever His answer is? No, He doesn't. I think this a far greater spiritual lesson/truth than the healing produced.

In any case, I've observed similar occasions among believers within my social sphere and have not seen resulting spiritual growth and increasing fellowship with God. Gratefulness, yes; relief, yes; praise of God, yes; but not, typically, advancement in walking with God.

I was a pastor's son and saw God supply miraculously many times. But this didn't translate at all into greater fellowship with God. Like other recipients of God's miraculous help, I felt gratefulness and a certain confidence in God's supply for His servant, my father. However, spiritual growth was not produced.

When I look more broadly at those who are clamoring after miraculous signs, who are eager to see some new, supernatural thing, I don't see spiritual depth. Instead, what I see are sensual believers who don't know how to "walk by faith rather than sight."

For these reasons, I don't hold the "sign gifts" as on par spiritually with those I listed that I think are much more conducive to spiritual living and growth.
 
Hmmm... It doesn't seem very plausible to me that Jesus obscured the meaning of his teachings because the hearts and minds of his audience were far away from him. Why speak to them at all if they would not understand him because of their distance from him?

Because it's like code that only those with ears to hear can perceive; those guided by the Spirit of God. The same thing was happening with Gideon's 300. Those led by the Spirit have ears to hear what is commanded by the Spirit of God whereas others don't; they pick up on His leading, and to him who has more will be given, but to him who has not, even that which he has will be taken from him.

In other words, it's a way to speak to an entire multitude of people with the intention of only reaching those who the message is intended for.
It seems a strange idea to me to think that Jesus purposely obscured his message from those who were already deaf and blind to it by virtue of their "distance" from him.
Jesus did not want to be hindered in his fulfillment of his Father's will by his own disciples and so he did not illuminate their minds and hearts fully to his atoning purpose.

Exactly. And he didn't want the Pharisees hindering anything either. If you spell things out to the enemy, you are aiding him in using it against you. Moreover, the Lord's wisdom is like pearls granted to those who abide close to Him, and He adorns them with it. Such honor does NOT go to those who are nonchalant and lukewarm in their affections for Him.
Their difficulty in understanding, then, wasn't a matter of proximity to Jesus, of hearts not "tuned" to him, but of a well-set hardness of belief and thought, an entrenched way of thinking about the Messiah...

No Tenchi. :) I understand what you are trying to say, but if you look a little deeper you are actually contradicting yourself. If they had had a greater closeness with God you don't think He would have already been revealing to them a sense that something wasn't right about the things they had been taught to believe? Some were demanding a sign, and for the very same reasons. They wanted to see the sun grow dark and the moon turn to blood before they would believe He was the Christ, but the disciples didn't. And why didn't they? When Jesus asked, "But who do you think I am" and Peter said, "You are the Christ," He replied, "Flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you, but My Father who is in Heaven." Now, if they were receiving revelation directly from the Father through the Holy Spirit, who is to say they could not have been doing so even earlier, especially since Jesus was mildly chastising them rather than just passing it off and excusing it when they were NOT understanding the parables?
I only lump together Moses and Balaam, Paul and Pharaoh, insofar as they were all clearly communicated to by God when they did not expect to hear from Him directly and were not living in a manner that was particularly conducive to such an experience. Moses was not as far gone as Pharaoh or Balaam when he encountered the burning bush, but there was nothing especially spiritual about his living that warranted hearing from God, either. In fact, Moses was a murderer-in-hiding, living in obscurity on the back side of the desert when God confronted him. In any case, my point was that God did not need someone to be "near" Him in their heart and mind, living well before Him, in order to communicate clearly to them. If He did not require this in the record of the OT, why should we make it a stipulation now to "hearing" Him?

Bah. You're dealing with four completely different Bible characters there, and as much as I would like to accommodate you on it, that's just too complex a package to unwrap given my limited time right now. Maybe another time on that one, but it's like 3-4 treads on it's own, not just a subset discussion within one.
The events recounted in the NT do so in a condensed manner, many years often standing between those experiences you've listed in the quotation above. Did Joseph have frequent directive dreams from God during his life? We read only of two in Christ's infancy, no more.

Kind of an argument from silence, though, don't you think? If the Bible is a condensed version of all the events that took place as you say (which it is), then why would scripture include all of the other dreams he might have had if he had them? It was important to the narrative, so it was included. Same would go for all the other characters you mentioned. How can we assume they all didn't have others?

My point was to look at how frequently they show up in the lives of those being used by the Spirit of God during NT times, and the conclusion is they featured very prominently. I still think you are trying to explain them away rather than taking things at face value.
 
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So the church members gather around and a toddler girl is prayed for , for a healing of a condition the doctor said she would have to get surgery for . Much to the surprise and consternation of the doctor the toddler no longer needed surgery after being prayed for , she was healed . Now all the church members hear about this , Praise God .
Many witnesses on this healing .

Now Tenchi explain how this was NOT truly spiritually beneficial ?
Hi Hawk
Just want to say that those in church probably believe a miracle happened.

Those out of the church (I mean Church) don't care.

Those who believe require no miracle.
To the unbeliever no amount of miracles will be sufficient.

Can't remember who said that.
Maybe Chesterton.
 
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