Should women have authority over men in the Church?

[turnorburn]

Lets not turn this into a Gloria Steinem - event.. :naughty

 

[whirlwind]

Lets not turn this into a Gloria Steinem - event.. :naughty

I'm not certain who your reply is addressed to (if not all of us ) but, if it was to my post I don't see how what is written can turn anything into an "event." Was it not you that said....to read what the Bible says? I wrote what the Bible says.

 

[NooneSpecial]

Lets not turn this into a Gloria Steinem - event.. :naughty

On the contrary....how does refering to mankind's sin in general have anything to do with Gloria Steinem? For are there not men written of in scripture who were just as guilty of sinning as women? Since when are women satan? Or sexist comments encouraged in the bible? Yes, women are not to have authority over men in the church. That is something not to be argued, but to go so far as to imply that women are bad in any way seems a bit of a stereotype rather than a biblical discussion.

 

[Free]

Read what the bible says Free, education and teaching have nothing to do with the woman taking authority over men. Authority in the biblical sense would be a woman "Usurping"
authority over a man as in "who wears the pants in the family"

Amen.

This rule is operative IN the church. Woman can obviously be taking the gospel to the lost , but when it comes to taking authority in the church, they cannot.

Those are the answers I expected. Now that I have finally read my Bible, here is what it says:

1 Cor 14:34-35, 34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

1Tim 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. (NKJV)

Nothing about this rule being only operative in the Church. If this is about women usurping men in spiritual matters then theological education and missionary endeavors most certainly are consistent with Paul's teaching. If it's wrong for women to do so in the church, it is wrong for them wherever they are in spiritual authority over men.

A point that must also be understood is that when a woman prophesies in the church, it is God speaking through her, and not the woman herself. That is why she is allowed to prophesy.

When someone prophecies it is God giving them the words to speak, they don't become automatons. The same is with teaching Scripture. Unless you want to argue that it is only men speaking when they teach and God doesn't give them the words to say.

 

[handy]

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearingâ€â€if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

A woman shall be saved through childbearing...

I promise, I'm not going off topic here. An important part of establishing any doctrine from Scriptures is to examine the context in which each text appears. Within this context of Paul's instruction to Timothy regarding women in Ephesus (and perhaps to all women for all time) is this rather startling statement that women will be saved through childbearing. What does Paul mean by this?

btw, this discussion is going better than past discussions on this issue. Hopefully we can keep it that way. Certain comments notwithstanding, we seem to be actually discussing something here. As far as the godly women, and godly men for that matter, I find more than a few to be right here on the forum. Certainly it is in character for a godly woman to pour over God's word and seek after it's truths. After all, Jesus stated that Mary had made the better choice when she chose to sit at His feet with the rest of the disciples rather than do the dishes.

 

[mondar]

Should women have authority over men in the Church? What is Biblical?

What is biblical? Well, how about a mere discussion of one passage, 1 Tim 2.
11A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
Pauls instructs Timothy on the role of women in the Church. The role he requires of Timothy is that when there are mixed gender situations in a Church, women are to take the role of learners, not teachers. That part is not difficult to understand. Beyond this there seems to be questions because Paul gives us only generalities. The specifics of the role of women as learners in mixed gender church meeting has some questions. This passage says "she must be silent." The question might be raised how a woman can even pray. Does the prohibition for women to speak relate only to teaching issues? Or does it relate Is this context related any activities of women in the Church? Is it speaking of total silence?

Some want to ignore this passage and say it refers only to a certain cultural setting. To this writer, that seems to be a slippery slope. This cane be seen from Pauls argumentation in the later part of the passage. Pauls basis for the command is not cultural, but it is grounded in events in the genesis narratives.
13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearingâ€â€if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Pauls arguments are threefold.
1--- Adam was formed first.
2--- Adam was not deceived, but Eve was deceived.
3--- The woman (Eve on down) will secure her deliverance through means of childbirth.

All three arguments are connected to the Genesis. The logic of the arguments may or may not appeal to the reader, but this writer considers all scripture as authoritative and inerrant. Now for a few comments on the arguments.

1--- Adam was formed first.
The creation narratives seem to make a point of the fact that Adam was created out of the dust of the ground. Eve was a later creation out of Adams side. How could Eve be an afterthought? Was Adam created with reproductive organs? What would the purpose of this reproductive capacity without Eve? If God intended Adam to reproduce from the moment of his creation, then he needed a mate. God created all the beasts of the field with reproductive capacity, but for Adam, no counterpart was made. Why would God do this? Obviously God is making a point. After Adam is made, God begins to issue all the commands about the different tree's of the Garden. These commands were given to Adam. Only later did God make Eve. How then did Eve learn of God's commands to Adam? Did Adam later instruct Eve in their responsibilities? Is Paul drawing an implicit implication that this established the role of men as instructors?

Paul saw the role of men in women in the Church as related to Adams role as an instructor in the creation narratives, and not related to any individual culture. The point is that the order in the Church, is related to a literal understanding of Genesis. Of course in our culture, many do not take the Genesis narratives literally, and this creates the sliding slope for cultural accommodation of any argument related to Genesis.

2--- Adam was not deceived, but Eve was deceived.
Let me begin my comments on Pauls argument by asking a hypothetical question. In Genesis, Eve was deceived by the serpent, but Adam knew what God had said, and rebelled against the commands of God with direct knowledge. Hypothetically, what would have happened if Adam had obeyed God? Now in Romans 5, Adam is the federal head of the human race. The race that comes forth from Adam would then still be in Adam and innocent. We would be without sin in Adam. So then, what happens to Eve? Is she judged by God, and Adam gets a different wife to procreate?

The question does not need answered. The point of the question is that the sin of Adam is different then the sin of Eve. Eve was not the federal head of the human race. That was Adam. Eve was deceived, but Adam was an outright rebel.

Adam bore the responsibility for the choice of the human race to go into sin. We are now rebels against God by nature because of Adams decision. Adam knew what he was getting into. The differences in the sin seem to be Pauls 2nd argument for the men fulfilling the teaching role. I think there is an implicit exhortation to men. As the head of the home, they had better know the scriptures and get it right. Otherwise, history could repeat, and the woman could take the role of leaders and teachers, and again be deceived. Without proper knowledge of the scripture, men can also be deceived. Yet with a proper knowledge, man can still rebel, just as Adam.

3--- The woman will be delivered in Childbirth.
The third is the difficult and controversial one. Again, I think it goes back to the creation narratives. The curses and blessings pronounced upon Adam and Eve had a special blessing for Eve. Out of her seed would come the one would would crush the serpents head. Out of Eve's childbearing ability, was to come her deliverer from the sin that she had been deceived with. The woman's childbearing ability is related to the salvation of Eve, and the woman, and even the entire human race. It was to be a high calling.

The point that needs to be made concerning the 3ird defense of Paul is that it is still an argument from creation, and not from culture.

My conclusion is that the command of Paul concerning the gender order in the Church (verse 11) cannot be dismissed upon a cultural basis. While this post is weak on specifics of exactly how this gender order is to be played out, the gender order in the Church cannot be dismissed upon a cultural basis. Women are not to be teachers or in authority over men in the Church because of what happened in creation, and at the fall of Adam.

 

[handy]

Mondar, you post came in right after mine and I see that you touched on exactly the question that I asked. I have to go now, but I promise I'll read through your most more closely.

 

[Imagican]

a little piece of 'insight' into the 'spirit of Eve'.

The relationship between God and man, (Adam and God), was SIMPLY THAT. Eve was created FROM Adam FOR Adam.

We have the order offered over and over. Christ is FOR God as man is FOR Christ as woman is FOR man.

Or, as offered, God is the HEAD of Christ as Christ is the HEAD of man as man is the HEAD of woman.

Back to the 'spirit' of Eve.

Do you not recognize that the SAME spirit that led her is still ALIVE and well TODAY.

All one NEED do is PUT themselves in the POSITION of Eve.

Eve was ENVIOUS of the relationship of God and Adam. For it was a relationship that she could NEVER attain. Until Satan came along and gave her EXACTLY what she longed for and THEN SOME.

She wanted to BE the SAME as Adam. Yet Satan gave her EVEN MORE. For he told her that IF her eyes were opened, that she would be LIKE GOD. Imagine that. One longing to be LIKE 'something else' given a chance to become 'something even GREATER'.

The same spirit of envy exists today. We can clearly see it in those that women that insist that they are NOT ONLY EQUAL to men, but BETTER than them.

Regardless of the beliefs of MEN, (or women), the Bible plainly places them in their proper perspective. And ANY woman OR MAN that denies this is in denial of THE TRUTH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

1 Timothy 2:

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearingâ€â€if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

So where have the godly women gone?

1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 ¶ It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

So where have all the godly men gone?

I have grown to appreciate these topics more because they always reveal humility or arrogance, servanthood or lordship. They reveal these things moreso in what is omitted.

Thankyou Destiny! This is exactly right - the lack of godly men and women is the reason that the 'church' is in the state it is. Look around folks. Is the 'church' any different to the world?

 

[destiny]

Eve was ENVIOUS of the relationship of God and Adam. For it was a relationship that she could NEVER attain. Until Satan came along and gave her EXACTLY what she longed for and THEN SOME.

Mec, that is about the silliest thing yet! LOL :biglol Maybe you are confusing this with Cain and Abel?

Please give the chapter and verse that states Eve was envious of God and Adam.

 

[whirlwind]

a little piece of 'insight' into the 'spirit of Eve'.

.

Eve was ENVIOUS of the relationship of God and Adam. For it was a relationship that she could NEVER attain. Until Satan came along and gave her EXACTLY what she longed for and THEN SOME.

She wanted to BE the SAME as Adam. Yet Satan gave her EVEN MORE. For he told her that IF her eyes were opened, that she would be LIKE GOD. Imagine that. One longing to be LIKE 'something else' given a chance to become 'something even GREATER'.
MEC

And....where is that written...or implied?

 

[handy]

1 Timothy 2:

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearingâ€â€if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

So where have the godly women gone?

1 Timothy 3:1-7
1 ¶ It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),
6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

So where have all the godly men gone?

I have grown to appreciate these topics more because they always reveal humility or arrogance, servanthood or lordship. They reveal these things moreso in what is omitted.

Thankyou Destiny! This is exactly right - the lack of godly men and women is the reason that the 'church' is in the state it is. Look around folks. Is the 'church' any different to the world?

And it is when there is a lack of godly men that God specifically states that He will call women to rule. Which is why I'm for re-examining these texts to see if they are indeed prohibitions for all women, for all time, or if they were more specific to Corinth and Ephesus, a generality within the church but one in which exceptions can and are made.

Mondar, your interpretation of the text is sound, but one of many. It happens to be pretty much the same interpretation that I held to for most of my Christian walk. It's only been recently that I've taken to re-examining the full context of women in the Scriptures.

Just by way of explanation, this subject used to be a kind of litmus test for me. Sort of a "deal-breaker" when it came to looking upon someone as a true Christian or not. I was convicted that my attitude about taking these kinds of issues and making litmus tests out of them wasn't godly at all. Hence the re-examination. I used to believe that no Bible believing Christian could possibly accept the idea of women pastors and ministers. Now I'm more of the mind that it is an area of legitimate difference of opinion within the church.

Anywhoo, back to the issue. Again, I'm examining the contexts of both the 1 Timothy 2:12 text and the 1 Corinthian 14 text.

In the larger context of Paul's letter to Timothy, he echoes what he said about women being wife and mother:

1 Timothy 5:14 Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach.

According to 1 Timothy 5, widows who were less than 60 years of age were expected to remarry. Paul has some pretty negative things to say of younger widows in verse 13. The whole issue of putting widows on the "list" is the issue of whether or not the church was to support a widow and any of her children. Paul clearly states here that, at least in Ephesus, any widow under the age of 60 was not to be put on the list, but rather to remarry.

However in his instructions to the church at Corinth, Paul states, "But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I (ie unmarried), but if they do not have self-control, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to burn." (1 Corinthians 7:8-9)

Paul further goes on to say:

1 Corinthians 7:28 "But if you should marry, you have not sinned; and if a wirgin should marry, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life and I am trying to spare you."

vs 34 "...And the woman who is unmarried, and the virgin, is concerned about the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and spirit; but the one who is married is concerned about the things of the world, how she may please her husband."

vss 39-40 "A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord. But in my opinion she is happier if she remains as she is; and I think that I also have the Spirit of God.

It seems very clear to me that Paul is giving different instructions to the churches at Ephesus and Corinth. In Ephesus, Paul was quite adamant that younger widows were not to expect the church to support them, they were to remarry. However, in Corinth, Paul is encouraging not only widows but all who are unmarried to remain single, so that they can be "concerned about the things of the Lord". It seems as though there were different issues facing the churches in Corinth and in Ephesus and that Paul is giving godly and inspired advice to each of the churches in light of the conditions they faced.

So, what does this all have to do regarding women in authoritative positions within the church? Again, it's all a matter of context. The statements that Paul has made regarding women being silent and not holding authority are very bald statements, but they are at variance with not only his comments that in Christ we are all equals, but also with the fact that God has called women to prophesy (therefore they cannot be silent) and to be both prophets and in Deborah's case a judge, which are clearly authoritative roles. If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (and He is) then either Paul is in contradiction with God, or the Bible is in error, or Paul was addressing some very real concerns in Corinth and Ephesus, but those are not any more binding on the whole of the Church for all time than the instruction that the younger widows of Ephesus were to marry was binding on the widows and virgins of Corinth.

Or it's something else and I'm more than open to considering what the something else is, as long as it's not the charge that Paul was a chauvinistic, misogynistic, pig who contradicted himself and that the Bible is full of such contradictions.

 

[mondar]

Handy,

If God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (and He is) then either Paul is in contradiction with God, or the Bible is in error, or Paul was addressing some very real concerns in Corinth and Ephesus, but those are not any more binding on the whole of the Church for all time than the instruction that the younger widows of Ephesus were to marry was binding on the widows and virgins of Corinth.

I am not absolutely sure I am following you at this point. If I understand what you are saying...

Because there is a tension between 1 Cor and 1 Tim and the issue of the unmarried, you think this carries over into the discussion of roles in the Church? I am not sure how you connect these two things?

I dont know if this will help, but the issue of 1 Tim seems to be regarding widows under the support of the Church. If you remember from Acts 6 there was an issue concerning the support of Hebrew vs Greek speaking widows. It appears that widows were supported by the Church. In 1 Tim Paul instructs younger widows to remarry and raise a family. This is a very different contextual question then the issue of 1 Cor 7 aestheticism looms in the background. The question concerns perpetual virginity. The question seems to regard perpetual virginity as a superior spiritual state. Paul denies this, but affirms that it means the person can be wholly devoted to spiritual endeavors. He is speaking in broad general terms, and not referring to the specific case mentioned in 1 Timothy of a widow in the support of the Church. To assume the contexts are the same would be non-sequitur. The so called "different" instructions are in regard to two different contextual settings for the instruction.

The statements that Paul has made regarding women being silent and not holding authority are very bald statements, but they are at variance with not only his comments that in Christ we are all equals,

Women pastors commonly quote Galatians 3:28 to demonstrate equality...
Gal 3:28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.
Again there is a contextual issue. The context of Galatians 3 concerns the perversion of the gospel by the Judiasers. In this soteriological setting Paul is making a statement of total soteriological equality of Jews and Gentiles, Males and Females. This does not mean that he is calling for equality of roles. How man Gentile apostles did Jesus choose? They were all Jews! Nevertheless, I, as a gentile, have equality in salvation with even the apostle Paul, but I do not have an equal role in the Church.

Female pastors claiming this verse makes equal roles in the Church are taking the verse out of context.

but also with the fact that God has called women to prophesy (therefore they cannot be silent) and to be both prophets and in Deborah's case a judge, which are clearly authoritative roles.

Good point. There is also the text in 1 Cor 11 which speaks of women covering their heads when praying or making prophecies. From that passage it seems that women did prophecy in the primitive Church. How can a female be totally silent if she is praying or prophesying?

Did the primitive Church see the roles of teaching and prophecy as separate roles?

You could also bring up the issue of Pheobe in the Church at Cenchreae. The word διάκονον might not speak of an office, it might speak of an office. In any case, Pheobe certainly functioned in some way as a servant in that Church. I doubt it was with regard to making sure there were flowers in the front of the sanctuary. Did she handle Church monies? Was she a manager of widows, as in 1 Tim? Romans 16 leaves us with more questions then it answers.

I dont have all answers to the roles of men and women in the Church. I can make general statements based upon the scriptures. Men and woman have different roles, and men should hold the office of á¼ÂÀιÃκοÀῆ or ÀÃÂεÃβÅÄέÃÂοÂ. Read the qualifications for the functions in 1 Tim 3 and see if Paul does not assume it will be men. Men should be the teachers in mixed company. More then that, I do not know. 1001 questions can be asked "what about female prophets," what about when females "pray," what about female deaconesses, etc. You might have to discuss those things with someone else.

 

[NooneSpecial]

Is there any such passage in scripture that clearly states Eve was envious? Also....why is it always Eve who solely is to take the blame for the fall of MAN in the garden of Eden? Do not recall it being written anywhere that Adam partook of the forbidden fruit by anything outside of his own choosing.

Another good biblical example of equality when it comes to sin can be found in John 3:16.

"For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten son."

World I believe does not single out any particular gender. Implying then that both genders are in need of salvation. Jesus is the key to that in accordance to scripture....not childbearing or otherwise

 

[handy]

Mondar, thanks for the thought filled and thought provoking post. I'll be reading it and considering things further when I have more time.

Regarding Adam and Eve's role in the downfall of man, it is something that seems fairly straightforward to me. Eve was deceived. Adam was not. The biggest "what if" in this world is what if Adam, instead of rebelling against God, had brought Eve to Him for help. Didn't happen though, he chose to rebel against God and join Eve in sin. Which is why we are taught in Romans that it was through Adam that sin came into the world. Through one man, Adam, sin came into the world, and through one Man, Jesus, the world can be saved.

 

[destiny]

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure the sound doctrine; but, having itching ears, will heap to themselves teachers after their own lusts;

Cornelius, this has been bothering me because for me the opposite is true.

I just want to address the keeping silent part: The hardest thing God has ever required of me was to speak in an assembly. It doesn't tickle my ears to be told to speak by any means, it makes me want to run and hide. I hate speaking before a crowd.
Also, I have been required to say things that could be considered as "teaching" a truth before men and woman in an assembly. I hated doing that too but I knew I would be miserable if I didn't obey what I felt the Lord was telling me to do.
Nothing I did took away from male authority or order in the church, in fact I knew I was obeying God and would even wrestle against it for periods of time in not wanting to speak.

Only my husband knows the burden I've carried concerning those things. The main burden was in not wanting to obey because of fear of man, but I did.

So to say these things "tickle" the ears is very wrong as far as I'm concerned.

I know how God has used me, I feel that Paul personally did not allow a woman to teach men or speak. I believe he makes that distinction when he says, "not I but the Lord' and visa versa.. and then uses "I Paul" at times when speaking of church order concerning woman. I won't go into that again.
I don't believe in a woman 'taking' authority over a man and I believe in divine order in marriage. I also believe in submitting one to another in the fear of God.

I just thank God that I am free in Him.

 

[Cornelius]

1 Timothy 2:

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearingâ€â€if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

So where have the godly women gone?

There is a Jezebel spirit in the church today.

Rev 2:20 But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel, who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent of her fornication.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of her works.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto each one of you according to your works.

 

[whirlwind]

1 Timothy 2:

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearingâ€â€if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

So where have the godly women gone?

There is a Jezebel spirit in the church today.

Rev 2:20 But I have this against thee, that thou sufferest the woman Jezebel who calleth herself a prophetess; and she teacheth and seduceth my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed to idols.
Rev 2:21 And I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent of her fornication.
Rev 2:22 Behold, I cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of her works.
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto each one of you according to your works.

Could that "Jezebel spirit" be....the whore of Babylon? :o Could she be the false prophets, antichrists, preachers, teachers standing in pulpits today? Her spirit is in many....men and women. And, the vast majority of the leaders of religious folks are.....male. I agree with you in that her spirit is running rampant but don't agree if you are saying that the spirit in those verses are the women in churches. :yes

The Jezebel spirit has nothing to do with gender. It has to do with those teaching deception.

 

[destiny]

I think Cornelius was probably "indirectly" calling me a Jezebel, whirlwind, and then shifting the blame for the ills of the institutional churches on to woman. We can see when we look at the whole of the New Testament.. that fale prophets, teachers and wolves in sheeps clothing are predominately what we are warned about the most.
Many people will isolate certain verses in order to make their point sound more viable, this is how man-made doctrins are created. When we look at the whole of scripture we get a better understanding of what God is saying and how He moves and works in the lives of His people.

The jezebel spirit is just a spoke in the big wheel of babylon and can be male of female. The leaven of the Pharisees is even more common with it's supressive Nico-laity practices and lack of spiritual understanding in how God moves in His body. All are just some of the reasons The Word tells us to, "come out from among them and be seperate".

 

[whirlwind]

I think Cornelius was probably "indirectly" calling me a Jezebel, whirlwind, and then shifting the blame for the ills of the institutional churches on to woman. We can see when we look at the whole of the New Testament.. that fale prophets, teachers and wolves in sheeps clothing are predominately what we are warned about the most.
Many people will isolate certain verses in order to make their point sound more viable, this is how man-made doctrins are created. When we look at the whole of scripture we get a better understanding of what God is saying and how He moves and works in the lives of His people.

The jezebel spirit is just a spoke in the big wheel of babylon and can be male of female. The leaven of the Pharisees is even more common with it's supressive Nico-laity practices and lack of spiritual understanding in how God moves in His body. All are just some of the reasons The Word tells us to, "come out from among them and be seperate".

I hope he wasn't tagging you with the Jezebel name. I read your previous post and it was terrific. I agree, the Holy Spirit leads us...men and women, to speak, teach, etc. Not just in face to face meetings but on public forums...such as this. I also agree with your assessment of Paul in the previous post. It is clear that he was writing for himself in some verses and from the Spirit in others.

So, yes...God uses us and yes...we are free. We freely allow Him to instruct us to share His Word and freely understand not to allow man to instruct us otherwise. We hear His voice. :amen