Should women have authority over men in the Church?

[Imagican]

No one has EVER said that Christ did NOT die for ALL.

What has been pointed out is that God 'created' AS He created and for a PURPOSE. That many have chosen to ignore that purpose is without doubt but doesn't alter the purpose in the least.

And man has made decisions that have had a 'bearing' on his existence. Woman as well. We have the account of the decisions and we have the account of the consequences.

In the world that we live in today, there are MANY directions that each of us is hit with false teachings from the moment that we are able to comprehend. Parents, siblings, friends, school, television, radio, books, etc...

These things are SECULAR and rarely have any TRUE wisdom to offer other than the wisdom of this world.

God offered us HIS Word in order that we be ABLE to know what the TRUTH is. He sent His Son as the ULTIMATE example of this truth.

He has NEVER FORCED anyone to follow truth. Most will never even try to understand it, much less FOLLOW it. You ask the average 'Christian' and they will admit that they have NEVER even READ The Word. So, it is NOT surprising that about 99 percent of this planet lives IN and FOR this world. Struggling to do what PLEASES them and following where the world leads them.

But that does not alter the FACT that there IS A Truth.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[handy]

mondar, I want again to thank you so much for having a deep and meaningful conversation on this topic. I read through your response and again found it informative and insightful. Believe me, this conversation is helping me sort out a lot of questions that I've had for awhile. I've tried to have conversations about it before, but was attacked and felt defensive, just because I asked the questions.

Any way, I wanted to revisit this:

handy wrote:While the point that Paul's basis for the instruction to the Ephesians was grounded in the order of creation is a valid one, it still raises questions. Two of the most important questions it raises is why, if it is a matter of creation that women are always to be submissive to men, (as opposed to wives being submissive to husbands) did God raise up women leaders from time to time and why did God gift women with gifts such as prophesy that requires a woman to speak and speak with authority in the church?

If it is indeed a matter of creation that women are to be subject to men, all women to men and for all time, then one can only wonder why God raises godly women to lead men.

I am not sure what to make of what you say here. On the one hand, you seem to accept the exegesis that in 1 Tim 2, Paul gives instruction to his "apostolical delegate" Timothy, not to choose female overseers (Bishops). Then on the other hand, you seem to be questioning Paul's reasoning. If that is true, it is an issue that you would have to take up with Paul. That is an issue of scriptural authority.

Is not that the bottom issue? I would agree that if Paul only intended the instructions of 1 Timothy to be kept at Ephesus, then it would not apply to local Churches elsewhere. However, since in my mind, Tim 5 and Cor 7 can be harmonized, why not the issue of female leadership.

I'm not questioning Paul's reasoning so much as addressing the fact that his reasoning still leaves unanswered questions, one of which is, if woman is never to hold authority over man because of Creation itself, then why did God call Deborah to judge Israel and call Huldah to be His profit and if a woman is never to speak out in the congregations, because of Creation, why did God gift women with the gift of prophesy? I'm not saying that there was anything wrong with Paul's instruction to Timothy, just questioning if his stated reasons had more to do with a specific issue that was in the Ephesian church, rather than something that was binding for all time.

I agree with you that we do need to seek after the answers to these questions within the Scriptures and not rely upon anecdotal situations. However, it is through the Scriptures that we do see that God placed Deborah as judge over Israel and called Huldah to be His prophet. At both times, when these women were called upon to serve in authoritative positions, the nation of Israel was in a state of turning away from God and seeking after false gods. A state which was prophesied that the Church would go through as well. Whereas some would say that we must hold to Paul's instructions to Timothy in the matter of women ministers, others say that just as God called women to step into the breach left by men in the past, He will do so now that there is so much apostasy going on.

After reading all that has been discussed in this thread, (at least the more rational of the posts), I have this mind about this issue. I do believe that it is God's norm that men be the leaders in the church and women, while not needing to be 'silent' (I do think that was a specific instruction) are to be subject. I believe that in the healthier of the churches, this is the norm. However, given the times that we live in, and what is to come, it's just possible that God is calling upon Godly women to rise up to be His prophets and to be leaders, when men are leading the flock astray. Whether or not He is in fact doing so, is still a great big "I don't know" for me, but when I read the testimonies of sisters like Destiny, it seems pretty certain that for some, He sure is. In the matter of prophets today, I'm not big on any "new relevation" type of teaching, but I do believe that there are those who are gifted in preaching and teaching God's word in such a way that it holds fast to what is good and it seems as though Destiny is certainly one who does that.

At any rate, I used to believe very firmly that if a church had a woman pastor, they were without a doubt an apostate church to be shunned and avoided at all costs. Now, I see this issue as an issue that Christians can come to differing opinions about and yet still embrace each other as brethren. Just as the church can, with a certain amount of validity, disagree on issues like full submersion baptism, Calvinism, and whether or not it's OK to drink wine, the church can also, with a certain amount of validity, disagree on the subject of women pastors.

With this I'm bowing out of this discussion unless a new point is raised. Oh, if whirlwind reads this, I can see what your point is, and it is somewhat new, but I think that you might be overgeneralizing the matter. While I'm not sure that Paul is speaking for the whole of the church for all time, or addressing a specific situation in Ephesus that Timothy needed to deal with, I'm pretty certain that the issue was the role of the sexes within the church, and not the Body of Christ and Christ the Head.

Thanks again, mondar, for a great discussion.

 

[destiny]

I appreciate what you said about me in a good light, Handy. Bless you sister.

I cut my teeth in spirit filled churches where woman were free to share within the church body, and the pastor and elders always welcomed a woman sharing and using her gifts within the body. I personally don't know of any woman who have taken authority upon themselves over the pastor and elders, but I'm sure it happens.

Although the Lord has called us (my family and I ) out of the traditional denominational churches, we can all praise God that we aren't chained to spiritually oppressive and abusive situations. There's always the "exit".

 

[lovely]

After reading destiny's post, I was thinking about ways women can usurp the authority in the church. I think sometimes women can usurp the authority of the church by just not being submissive to their own husbands. A husband is less likely to lead if his wife is in constant rebellion and trying to run his home, or running his home. I believe this is why an elder is required to have an orderly home. If you have an elder that is not leading his home, then women, and children, are leading your church. It reminds me of the book of Esther when the King's advisors told him to put away Vashti so that other women didn't usurp their husbands. An elder is to be the example, and should meet the qualifications of the Word.

I think there is also something to be said for women being more proned to deception as the weaker vessel. It's funny how we will follow any book, or anyone's teaching, as long as it is saying we are 'right' or it's providing us with a formula that will fix everything in our lives. I think men are less likely to be sucked in by the Oprah's of the world. I had a friend who use to sell door to door, and he used to tease by saying that there's a reason salesmen always want to talk to the woman of the house. I have found this tactic to be true of telemarketers as well.

The other thing is, if handy's point about women being called to lead because men are not leading is truly the motive of woman pastors and elders, then I wonder at what point those women will step down? If our men are saying women shouldn't be pastors, or be in authority over men, then aren't they on the right track, aren't they turning away from complacency and having a heart to speak out and be leaders? It seems like in the past few years we hear of more believers turning back to God's way for the family. About 11 years ago when I would attend a homeschooling conference there would be absolutely no men in attendance most of the time, and I mean literally no husbands at all sometimes...with the exception of most of the speakers. You may say, well the men were working, but the reality was that women were the ones who were being prepared to come back to being helpmeets and mothers in their homes first, we decided to repent and come back to submission and come out from the deceptions of the feminists, and now you see men being honored and built up and leading more and more. I am not saying that this is always the case, but I am speaking generally. When I go to these conferences now, it is at least 50% men, if not more at times. You also see the hearts of the fathers being turned toward the home and children, and the children toward their parents. It seems like men will have to be very strong in order to come back to a place of leadership, because women have a hard time hearing that they should not be in authority and they are not saying that they will step down. If there are willing men who desire to lead, will the women pastors and elders step down?

Just some thoughts, you guys, the Lord bles all of you.

 

[destiny]

After reading destiny's post, I was thinking about ways women can usurp the authority in the church. I think sometimes women can usurp the authority of the church by just not being submissive to their own husbands

I can honestly thank God that my husband encourages me to share what God drops in my heart, even in times I haven't wanted to. I also thank God for being in places where the leadership was balanced and encouraging in that area.
My husband will tell you if not for my spiritual influence in his life that he probably would have killed himself with drugs. It's easy to sit in judgment over situations we know nothing about on these forums, because in reality we can't observe each others lives.

 

[Fembot]

Everyone is using their own discernment and not reading the Bible for the Truth it has within.

The verse was not saying women cannot speak in church, or that she can't talk from the pulpit. As far as silence, this was a cultural statement commanding women to stop chattering and yelling during the service and hold their questions for their husbands til later. At the time women were not educated and would disrupt worship asking questions.

Paul who made this statement also was the first to invite women into the worship service. He told men to educate the wives how to conduct themselves at home so that there would be no problems in the services.

There are other instructions through the verses that teach how to conduct one self (men and women). So, those of you who think my opinion is irrelevant should go do some research:

Study to be quiet, and to do your own business. 1 Thessalonians 4:11

A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. Proverbs 15:1

Why are these acceptable to you yet the directions for women to be silent in the churches and allow men to be leaders are not? Ask yourself why you can not read the words for what they are and accept it. It is human nature to overlook things we aren't willing to come to terms with.

 

[lovely]

I can honestly thank God that my husband encourages me to share what God drops in my heart, even in times I haven't wanted to. I also thank God for being in places where the leadership was balanced and encouraging in that area.
My husband will tell you if not for my spiritual influence in his life that he probably would have killed himself with drugs. It's easy to sit in judgment over situations we know nothing about on these forums, because in reality we can't observe each others lives.

destiny, being someone who had benefited over and over from you sharing 'the things God drops into you heart', I have no doubt that what you are saying is true. I would say that most spiritual men are very thankful for the Godly influence, and encouragement, of their wives, and do not feel the need to 'dominate' or threatened everytime she opens her mouth. I would also say that as Godly women we have nothing to prove concerning our value in Christ, and so we can also be thankful for our husband's willingness to be the head and lead us according to the Word. I have no doubt we agree on this.

The statement wasn't directed at you, but your post just provoked the thought. My husband was talking about this with me yesterday, because we were part of a church where one of the elders was too young (His children were also very young), and had a wife that just seemed very unwilling to be submissive. In fact, she pushed him to do things that were not good for the church, and it was very transparent. We never could be part of that church, because it was obvious this man was unqualified, and that his wife was running things, and his presence as an elder caused us to doubt the leadership of the other elders. Since then God has intervened, because he is no longer an elder, and their marriage has become one the is more of a reflection of Christ and His chuch. Anyway, it wasn't meant as a judgement against anyone, but really just one way that women can, and do, usurp authority in the church.

As far as women sharing their gifts in the assembly, as long as they are covered according to the Word and following the guidlines of the Word as it pertains to gifts and women, I see no problem with a woman praying, or prophecying, teaching, etc. I think the teaching is limited to women and children in the assembly, and I think the other gifts should be orderly, but overall women are part of the body and supposed to edify and serve. We are just supposed to do it within God's framework for us corporately as women, and individually as the Lord bestows gifts and provides opportunity, and while I think that most of the time it's in a helpmeet status, there are times when God just moves us..like when Anna had to speak about Christ to those looking for the redemption of Israel, we should also be compelled to speak about Him as our Redeemer. I am encouraged, because after so many years I am among believers who really just have a heart to just follow the Word and please the Lord. No one is willing to lord over others, and no one is willing to offend God, and so I am excited to see where the Lord leads us.

Anyway, this is usually a hot topic, but I am trying to behave myself. :D And again, it was not a comment directed at you, but just provoked by your post. The Lord bless you.

Edited: To fix my quote.

 

[destiny]

Thanks for explaining, lovely.

The problem with topics like this one is the blame for everything from a to z in the churches is somehow the woman's fault. That's what makes these topics a bit sickening to me, since I know first hand that isn't true at all.
I know there are situations where the women are at fault, but in the personal situations we've been in it has been mostly the women who were pleading with the male leadership to please stop watering down the word of God and changing the character of God for popularity. If it wasn't that it would be massive amounts of programs at the expense of the Holy Spirit, I could go on and on.. yet I can pretty straight faced tell you woman weren't at fault in those male dominated train wrecks.

My bible tells me that evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse in the days we live in, among many other warnings that do not specifically mention woman, and I clearly see it. It just seems foolish to me how these topics always seem to be a one way street of submission while the show out there is being ran predominately by men.

Any Holy Spirit filled leader encourages and builds up and serves the needs of the body in a way that reflects Jesus Christ instead of man. Usually when that happens the body functions as a whole, and in a way that reflects ALL of scripture pertaining to diverse gifts. A rare thing.

 

[Imagican]

After reading destiny's post, I was thinking about ways women can usurp the authority in the church. I think sometimes women can usurp the authority of the church by just not being submissive to their own husbands

I can honestly thank God that my husband encourages me to share what God drops in my heart, even in times I haven't wanted to. I also thank God for being in places where the leadership was balanced and encouraging in that area.
My husband will tell you if not for my spiritual influence in his life that he probably would have killed himself with drugs. It's easy to sit in judgment over situations we know nothing about on these forums, because in reality we can't observe each others lives.

destiny,

I beieve that you have confused PERSONAL judgement with the judgement of God.

We were given The Word as instruction and a guide to truth. When we choose to IGNORE it for whatever REASONS, it is the 'judgement of God' that one should ponder, not that of MEN.

Those that uphold the truth are BOUND to offer it when asked. Whether one is able to accept and bear it is mostly a matter of PERSONAL relationship with God through His Son. And for that matter, it is between YOU and YOUR master as to WHAT you follow.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[destiny]

And for that matter, it is between YOU and YOUR master as to WHAT you follow.

Exactly.. and I certainly wouldn't put myself "under" the carnal nature of man, and these threads bring it out, eh.
I'm sure the pharisees were following the letter to the "t" apart from the spirit when they wanted to stone the prostitute. I can sympathize with your situation Imagican, but I wouldn't put myself in it.
I don't think you even believe in the gift of tongues when it is plainly stated in the Bible? That too would require spiritual understanding.

 

[Imagican]

And for that matter, it is between YOU and YOUR master as to WHAT you follow.

Exactly.. and I certainly wouldn't put myself "under" the carnal nature of man, and these threads bring it out, eh.
I'm sure the pharisees were following the letter to the "t" apart from the spirit when they wanted to stone the prostitute. I can sympathize with your situation Imagican, but I wouldn't put myself in it.
I don't think you even believe in the gift of tongues when it is plainly stated in the Bible? That too would require spiritual understanding.

Destiny,

Judge NOT lest YE be judged.

I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY in the tongues refered to in The Word. That you may have chosen to follow 'something else' has no bearing on my Faith in The Word. And just because someone else has been led into 'false beliefs' does NOT mean that I need follow in such a path to offer them the love that I have been commanded to share.

All I attempted to do is offer what the Word has to offer. That many have chosen to ignore it for the sake of self has no bearing on the legitimacy of what I have offered.

Paul plainly offered the REASON that 'women' and 'men' have their respective PLACES in The Body. I did NOT make these words, I simply accept and follow them to the best of my ability.

So, save your words of vanity and flesh and project them in a direction that they may well be heeded. I am not subject to the 'spirit of Eve' and will not be.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[destiny]

And for that matter, it is between YOU and YOUR master as to WHAT you follow.

Exactly.. and I certainly wouldn't put myself "under" the carnal nature of man, and these threads bring it out, eh.
I'm sure the pharisees were following the letter to the "t" apart from the spirit when they wanted to stone the prostitute. I can sympathize with your situation Imagican, but I wouldn't put myself in it.
I don't think you even believe in the gift of tongues when it is plainly stated in the Bible? That too would require spiritual understanding.

Destiny,

Judge NOT lest YE be judged.

I believe WHOLEHEARTEDLY in the tongues refered to in The Word. That you may have chosen to follow 'something else' has no bearing on my Faith in The Word. And just because someone else has been led into 'false beliefs' does NOT mean that I need follow in such a path to offer them the love that I have been commanded to share.

All I attempted to do is offer what the Word has to offer. That many have chosen to ignore it for the sake of self has no bearing on the legitimacy of what I have offered.

Paul plainly offered the REASON that 'women' and 'men' have their respective PLACES in The Body. I did NOT make these words, I simply accept and follow them to the best of my ability.

So, save your words of vanity and flesh and project them in a direction that they may well be heeded. I am not subject to the 'spirit of Eve' and will not be.

Blessings,

MEC

That same Paul gave instructions for the function of gifts within the body such as words of wisdom, and knowledge, etc.. and he didn't say woman were disqualified from those gifts. It is you who leaves out the whole context of scripture and places God in a box that requires no spiritual understanding or knowledge of scripture as a whole.
Are you giving yourself up for your wife? This is what's supposed to happen when you submit to God. I suppose if men were loving their wives as Christ loves His church then all things would fall into place because that would be the most selfless love known to man, equal to laying down ones life, and something that is clearly missing in the attitudes of so many men, as this topic is proof of. I don't think there is even a grasp on the magnitude of what that means.

Ahhh well, but that isn't discussed, eh.

Anyway.. outta here.

 

[handy]

Mike, are you aware that you just rebuked Destiny to "judge not that ye be judged" then made a blanket judgment on the motives of all who disagree with you when you said,

That many have chosen to ignore it for the sake of self has no bearing on the legitimacy of what I have offered.

Whether or not destiny chooses to report the whole "spirit of Eve" attack is up to her. But I just want to try to help you to understand, at least once in your life, that others disagree with you, not "for the sake of self" but because so often your interpretations show a skewed understanding of Scripture. Sometimes Mike, you are spot on in your understandings. Believe it or not, I have more than once been in agreement with you. But more often than not your interpretations are just that and nothing more, your personal interpretations that have no bearing on what the Spirit intends for us to learn from any passage.

I don't know, Mike. I understand and appreciate the fact that you are zealous for God. But, you seem to often be like Apollos, who was both eloquent and bold, yet lacked an accurate understanding of the way of God. God used a woman, Priscilla, as well as her husband to teach Apollos more accurately the way of God. We can all learn from each other, but not if we assume that every time someone disagrees with us it's because they disagree with God Himself.

 

[destiny]

Just to clarify.. Handy I noticed the double standard from Mike. I let it go because I too agree with a lot of what he says, but in my opinion he isn't qualified to teach.

Anyway..I am going to go about my day hopefully in the divine providence of the Holy Spirit, and thank God even more that He set me free from religious Babylon.

 

[handy]

Go in peace, sister! I need to get on to work myself.

 

[Imagican]

Mike, are you aware that you just rebuked Destiny to "judge not that ye be judged" then made a blanket judgment on the motives of all who disagree with you when you said,

That many have chosen to ignore it for the sake of self has no bearing on the legitimacy of what I have offered.

Whether or not destiny chooses to report the whole "spirit of Eve" attack is up to her. But I just want to try to help you to understand, at least once in your life, that others disagree with you, not "for the sake of self" but because so often your interpretations show a skewed understanding of Scripture. Sometimes Mike, you are spot on in your understandings. Believe it or not, I have more than once been in agreement with you. But more often than not your interpretations are just that and nothing more, your personal interpretations that have no bearing on what the Spirit intends for us to learn from any passage.

I don't know, Mike. I understand and appreciate the fact that you are zealous for God. But, you seem to often be like Apollos, who was both eloquent and bold, yet lacked an accurate understanding of the way of God. God used a woman, Priscilla, as well as her husband to teach Apollos more accurately the way of God. We can all learn from each other, but not if we assume that every time someone disagrees with us it's because they disagree with God Himself.

Handy,

I appreciate your words. Really. But that doesn't alter what is STATED in The Word PLAINLY.

Are you in denial of the words of Paul concerning the PLACE of 'women' IN The Chruch'? I leave THAT conviction up to you.

I did NOT pen these words. I am but left to accept and understand.

Yet I see here those that choose to follow what THEY WANT to believe INSTEAD of what is PLAINLY offered in The Word. I DEFEND The Word and offer clarification to those that DO NOT understand. It's that simple. Nothing complicated here.

Paul, not ONLY offered statements concerning the PLACE of women IN The Church, he went ON to explain WHY. These are NOT my commandments. These are NOT MY WORDS. These are the words of an apostle of Christ and a prophet of God. One either accepts them or they DON'T. I have simply POINTED OUT this simple FACT.

Don't blame ME for I am JUST the messenger. If one has a PROBLEM with the words offered up by those CHOSEN by God to deliver, then one needs to 'take this up with God', not ME.

So long as what I offer conforms to the Word of God, how can I be so attacked and ignored? In this particular subject, the ONLY way that I can see is clearly THROUGH 'the spirit of Eve'. The words offered are PLAIN AND SIMPLE. So simple, even a CHILD could understand them. Yet there are those that would lead OTHERS into a false belief in 'something else'. That THEIR will is MORE important than that of God. And Handy, Destiny, I WILL NOT have to answer for such an attitude. I am MORE than willing to bow to the wishes and will of God and IF I have pure and plain words concerning an issue, it is NOT UP TO ME to alter them to 'suit myself' and 'my desires'.

I love you guys and don't know 'how else to show it' other than offering the SAME THING that was offered by the ONE who created us out of this SAME LOVE. My words 'harsh' at times? That they may well be. But we do NOT deal with mere opinions here. On the subject of God and His Word, there is little room for EVERYONE to have a SEPARATE opinion on what they MEAN. Otherwise the Body IS utterly divided in a way that cannnot be joined together again. If EACH of us simply accepts what we will and discards what we choose, what PLACE does truth stand THEN?

We battle not only with flesh and blood, but principalities and powers that MOST have absolutley NO conception of. For these, there are THOSE SENT to offer CORRECTION and understanding. Whether they are able to bear it or not is NOT up to the messenger.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And Handy,

If I can show you that I am SO RIGHT in some ways and so WRONG in others, is it POSSIBLE that it's YOUR PERCEPTION that is altered and not me BEING WRONG? Just a thought. Not expecting an answer. But I know how difficult it was for ME, at first, to submit to the will of God. I ran and fought like a 'banshee'. Unwilling to submit for fear that I would become 'something other than MYSELF'.

But through patience and perseverance, God continued with me until I was ABLE. And it was a monumental struggle I can assure you.

But now that that has 'changed', I AM NOT ME any more. I know, sounds kind of 'nutty' don't it? But the person that I am now has been given 'understanding' that I would have never dreamed possible twenty years ago. For it goes AGAINST EVERYTHING that I "stood for then''. Understanding that I would have attacked THEN as 'weak' and 'NEEDY'. For the 'world' that I lived in THEN was MY world and there was NO PLACE for anything that did NOT conform to it.

Sounds kinda familiar huh? And I can only believe that is EXACTLY why God FOUGHT SO HARD to secure me. For I am SURE that He KNEW me BETTER than I KNEW myself and that IF I were 'enlightened', that I would STAND UP and offer that SAME compulsion that I had ONCE possessed AGAINST Him and offer it FOR HIM.

Do you reacon, that out of ALL the people on the planet that He COULD have chosen, there was a SPECIAL REASON that He chose PAUL, a man persecuting HIS PEOPLE, to BE the one to offer the MAJORITY of His Word FROM?

No, he he he, by NO MEANS am I comparing myself to Paul in that way. For Paul ALREADY GAVE us The Word. But there IS NEED for those willing and ABLE to offer prophecy and discernment CONCERNING his words. That is apparent ANYTIME we make even a cursory attempt at studying the different denominations.

I am NO ONE special guys, really. I am simply one who has 'given in' and accepted what has been offered. If you DON'T know what I am talking about, then LISTEN. If you do, then you ALREADY DO.

That is ALL that I am able to give. That is WHAT I give. And I ask NOTHING in return for it. I accept the hostile words thrown at me and I continue to do what it IS that I have been COMMANDED to DO. And I am NOT able to please EVERYONE with what I have to offer. For this I would apologize except for the FACT that my words are NOT MEANT to offer offense but TRUTH as revealed. Fault me for that if you will. But what I offer is offered out of LOVE pure and simple. That my methods may not be perfect? Who's are except the deceiver who is able to entice with words offered to itching ears?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[NooneSpecial]

Handy,

I appreciate your words. Really. But that doesn't alter what is STATED in The Word PLAINLY.

Are you in denial of the words of Paul concerning the PLACE of 'women' IN The Chruch'? I leave THAT conviction up to you.

I did NOT pen these words. I am but left to accept and understand.

Yet I see here those that choose to follow what THEY WANT to believe INSTEAD of what is PLAINLY offered in The Word. I DEFEND The Word and offer clarification to those that DO NOT understand. It's that simple. Nothing complicated here.

Paul, not ONLY offered statements concerning the PLACE of women IN The Church, he went ON to explain WHY. These are NOT my commandments. These are NOT MY WORDS. These are the words of an apostle of Christ and a prophet of God. One either accepts them or they DON'T. I have simply POINTED OUT this simple FACT.

Don't blame ME for I am JUST the messenger. If one has a PROBLEM with the words offered up by those CHOSEN by God to deliver, then one needs to 'take this up with God', not ME.

So long as what I offer conforms to the Word of God, how can I be so attacked and ignored? In this particular subject, the ONLY way that I can see is clearly THROUGH 'the spirit of Eve'. The words offered are PLAIN AND SIMPLE. So simple, even a CHILD could understand them. Yet there are those that would lead OTHERS into a false belief in 'something else'. That THEIR will is MORE important than that of God. And Handy, Destiny, I WILL NOT have to answer for such an attitude. I am MORE than willing to bow to the wishes and will of God and IF I have pure and plain words concerning an issue, it is NOT UP TO ME to alter them to 'suit myself' and 'my desires'.

I love you guys and don't know 'how else to show it' other than offering the SAME THING that was offered by the ONE who created us out of this SAME LOVE. My words 'harsh' at times? That they may well be. But we do NOT deal with mere opinions here. On the subject of God and His Word, there is little room for EVERYONE to have a SEPARATE opinion on what they MEAN. Otherwise the Body IS utterly divided in a way that cannnot be joined together again. If EACH of us simply accepts what we will and discards what we choose, what PLACE does truth stand THEN?

We battle not only with flesh and blood, but principalities and powers that MOST have absolutley NO conception of. For these, there are THOSE SENT to offer CORRECTION and understanding. Whether they are able to bear it or not is NOT up to the messenger.

Blessings,

MEC

Imagican,

You have yet to offer BIBLICAL proof or support of the Eve vanity issue. Where is the passage in which states that Eve was jealous of Adam's relationship with God?

 

[Sparkey]

γÃ…νή εν ηÃÅÇια μανθανεÄÉ εν ÀαÃη ÅÀοÄαγη

gunē en hēsuchia manthanŠen pas hupotagē

Transliterated: "Woman in silence learn in all subjection". Westcott and Hort render this as: Woman in quietness 'let-her-be-learning' in all subjection;

Verse 12 (Westcott & Hort) continues with:
'to-be-teaching'; but 'to-woman' not 'I-am-permitting', nor 'to-be-playing-master' 'of-male-person', but 'to-be' in quietness.

We can see that in the key verse being discussed here, in Paul's letter toward Timothy, women are instructed not 'to-be-playing-master' 'of-male-person'. We can further see that Paul omitted the definite article "the" when he used the term γÃ…νή / "Woman"

Paul wrote to the Corinthians BECAUSE there were divisions among them, "For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it..."
______________________________

This discussion involves the act of submitting. Not only are we to submit ourselves to each other we are also commanded to submit to every ordinance of man (for the Lord's sake). Some may continue to ignore Peter's instruction and will wrestle with Paul's words, perhaps - but maybe we could take a break from it and just consider what submission is.

The concept is to yield or give way - to make oneself weak.

No Christian is allowed to "Lord it over" anyone. We are instructed to be respectful to all authorities.

Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. :amen

If we are actually looking through a mirror darkly when we peer into such things, can we not keep that perspective and avoid arguments that we could as easily agree aren't going to be fully resolved any time soon? lol - I'm preaching to the choir here, ain't I? I'm afraid that while we examine the pine cones on the tree we not only can't see the forest, we can't even see the tree.

We know that men are instructed to be "not playing the master," specifically told not to "Lord it over" women. I agree that God made man first, and out from him came woman. It is both lovely and dramatic. Just as dramatic as when God formed man and breathed life into his nostril. Such an act of intimacy. Adams reaction? "This is now bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman ('ishshâh / ish-shaw') because she was taken out from man ('ı̂ysh / eesh) - the term "out-from-man" can mean "properly a part of". Our God-breathed Word continues in Gen 2:24 "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh."

We see the same sentiment in the woman when we skip to the fruit of their union: Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

"I have gotten a man ('ı̂ysh / eesh) out from Yahweh. THIS is what the unity of the Body of Christ is looking forward to, yes? This is why we "cleave" together.


Hope this helps
~Sparrow

[Disclaimer: I've tried (however successfully) to moderate the tone of my writing here so that it wouldn't be objectionable or offensive - it is to be accepted only in the spirit it was intended and not wrestled apart nor twisted into something I didn't mean. Basically what I'm trying to say is, "Let us all resolve to be Peacemakers".]

 

[handy]

Sparrowhawk, I accept your post in the spirit in which it was posted. Having said that, I'm going to say something that might sound deliberately provoking, but it needn't be answered and truly is just food for though:

If I can show you that I am SO RIGHT in some ways and so WRONG in others, is it POSSIBLE that it's YOUR PERCEPTION that is altered and not me BEING WRONG? Just a thought.

Here's another thought: There just might be times when you're wrong, Mike.