Sin Free?

[Mysteryman]

Hi Danus

Yes, I was about to do the same thing. Who was saying what and why etc. It came to the point that most of the loving christians here started to actually fight with one another. They actually were starting to go out of fellowship with one another. Making comments that were not true , one toward another.

Every one of us is at different stages of faith within our lives. We are to walk by faith. Walking by faith we then are letting God reveal unto us an escape route away from sin. A weaker brother might sin, so we are to restore the weaker. Build them up spiritually. Help them so that they might not fall so often. And prayerfully our walks will set examples for others to follow. This is another reason not to sin, setting an example for others to follow.

Every man sins, and falls short of the glory of God. And no man/kind is perfect. So we are not to deceive ourselves into believing we can be perfect in the flesh. The only place we are perfect, is when we are in Christ, walking by the Spirit. Being in Christ is walking in fellowship in the righteousness that we have been called out to walk in.

Thanks for your reply, it was great ! Loved the John Madden analogy ! :D

Bless - IN Christ - MM

 

[Danus]

I don't know about anyone else here, but I am a Christian because I am a sinner. If I have to obtain perfection to be a Christian then I might as well hang it up right now.

The fact that I am a sinner keeps my relationship with Christ alive daily.

Danus, one question: when Paul writes to a church, does he address his letter to sinners or saints?

Well, "saint" defined as I understand it, is not a word I keep in my vernacular to describe any man of any time, so I either can't answer your question or you may imply my answer seeing how it only leaves one option within your question.

I will say that the instructions of the bible would not be necessary for any man who has overcome the world and since I know of no such man (other than Jesus himself who I understand to be God personified as man and hence not just a man) I'd have to say that Paul's writings and the whole of scriptures found in the bible are written to sinners like you and I, and isn't is great that we have such instruction? Further, isn't it great that we can all own a bible of our vary own and read it ourselves rather than relying on someone else to feed it to us?

 

[Mysteryman]

In the Word of God, God tells us that he will not allow us to be tempted (by the adversary) beyond what we are capable to bear. In that, he gives us a way to escape[/b

We do not, nor can we "defeat" sin ! But we can escape sin. Because God gives us a way in which to escape it.

Imo, you are making a play on words, in an earlier post, Cornelius said this exact same thing, yet, even when the Word tells us this, people are still in unbelief. MM, obviously you know what the Word says about this, but will you continue to say you will always be a sinner?
this is what we have been defending all along.

You all know of the verse which says - "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" < Does this mean that you can defeat death ? (As glorydaz has asked you ?) No, you can not defeat death and live forever in your corruptible bodies. And why would you ? Why do you want to live forever in your corruptible bodies ? !

why would you want to continue to sin when, as you have pointed out, God gives us an escape out of it.
He provides a door in which to flee from temptation and He is faithful and does not give us more than we can bare.
God sent His son, Jesus, perhaps you could say, unlocked the escape door to every temptation so that He tasted every temptation known to man.
The daily temptations we are faced with, there is an escape and we can either chose to flee through the door OR we can sin.
Do you see how it is Christ in us that helps us to flee from temptation? Are you saying He only does it half the time or sometimes? Christ is thorough, He does it ALL THE TIME!

Hi Darcy

Believe this or not. Most everyone within this thread is tearing down, and not building up one another.

Believe it or not, most everyone who has been tearing down, is sinning. We all should acknowledge , that our own sin, right here within this thread. Shows the weakness of the flesh of the mind. We have become proud, yet knowing nothing. While claiming to know everything. We are throwing verses at one another, as if each and everyone of us, is looking at the other, as the enemy of God. Or that each one seems to know more than the other. While denying the very truths that are within the Word of God - that every man sins and falls short of the glory of God. Pride has taken over, right here within this thread.

Let me quote you a verse in Galatians chapter 3 and in verse 3 - "Are you so foolish ? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh ? " Remember Darcy, the Spirit is willing , but the flesh is weak. This is not to be looked upon as one who is claiming a justification to sin, just because a verse says we are weak in the flesh. Our perfection is not in the flesh. Our perfection is our walk in the Spirit. And only one has accomplished this perfect walk in the Spirit, and that one, is Jesus Christ.

In the book of James and in chapter 2 and verses 20 threw 26, we read that faith without works is dead. One can say they have faith, but without works their faith is dead. And as verse 26 states - "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so Faith without works is dead also"

It sounds great to hear people talk the talk, by quoting verses of scripture. But it is by our walk, and our works that manifest our faith. And because there has only been one who walked in perfection. We strive to walk like Christ walked. But be not decieved, if any man say he is without sin, he makes God a liar. And I am sure, we do not want to fall into that trap, now do we ?

Bless - IN Christ - MM

 

[shad]

Believe this or not. Most everyone within this thread is tearing down, and not building up one another.

This is not true at all. You seem to be saying that if we don't agree with one another we are tearing down. There are so many posters expressing their convictions. It is a godly thing to defend their convictions. Only God knows who is in line with God. Let Jesus judge who is in line with God.

 

[Godfrey]

I'd have to say that Paul's writings and the whole of scriptures found in the bible are written to sinners like you and I

But you won't find the following verses in the Bible:

(Acts 9:13 NIV) "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your sinners in Jerusalem.

(Acts 9:32 NIV) As Peter traveled about the country, he went to visit the sinners in Lydda.

(Acts 26:10 NIV) And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the sinners in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.

(Rom 1:7 NIV) To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be sinners: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Rom 8:27 NIV) And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the sinners in accordance with God's will.

(Rom 15:25 NIV) Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the sinners there.

(Rom 15:26 NIV) For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the sinners in Jerusalem.

(Rom 15:31 NIV) Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the sinners there,

(Rom 16:2 NIV) I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the sinners and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me.

(Rom 16:15 NIV) Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the sinners with them.

(1 Cor 6:1 NIV) If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the sinners?

(1 Cor 6:2 NIV) Do you not know that the sinners will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

(1 Cor 14:33 NIV) For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the sinners,

(1 Cor 16:15 NIV) You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the sinners. I urge you, brothers,

(2 Cor 1:1 NIV) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the sinners throughout Achaia:

(2 Cor 8:4 NIV) they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the sinners.

(2 Cor 9:1 NIV) There is no need for me to write to you about this service to the sinners.

(2 Cor 13:13 NIV) All the sinners send their greetings.

(Eph 1:1 NIV) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the sinners in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

(Eph 1:15 NIV) For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the sinners,

(Eph 1:18 NIV) I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the sinners,

(Eph 3:18 NIV) may have power, together with all the sinners, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,

(Eph 6:18 NIV) And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the sinners.

(Phil 1:1 NIV) Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the sinners in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:

(Phil 4:21 NIV) Greet all the sinners in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings.

(Phil 4:22 NIV) All the sinners send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar's household.

(Col 1:4 NIV) because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the sinners--

(Col 1:12 NIV) giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the sinners in the kingdom of light.

(Col 1:26 NIV) the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the sinners.

(1 Tim 5:10 NIV) and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the sinners, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

(Phile 1:5 NIV) because I hear about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the sinners.

(Phile 1:7 NIV) Your love has given me great joy and encouragement, because you, brother, have refreshed the hearts of the sinners.

(Jude 1:3 NIV) Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the sinners.

 

[Godfrey]

... the apostles KNEW it is attainable, yet it was lost somewhere along the way.
God bless -

Maybe we periodically regain it. This is from John Wesley’s biography:

In 1741 he came across a [book] by a former fellow of Christ’s College Cambridge and former archbishop’s chaplain named Robert Gell. Gell taught that God’s grace could triumph in a human being while he yet lived: he need not wait for heaven; love for God, love for neighbour, would displace all desire to sin. Wesley became certain that this change could be effected instantaneously by the Spirit of Christ; the God of love never intended to limit the attainment of holiness to select saints, as traditional church teaching would have it … [but he also believed] that any who were living a life of joyful holiness might fall away at any moment …. [Wesley] had recovered a strand of Christian experience in victorious living which would influence churches all over the world.
- John Pollock, John Wesley, pp.161-2

And here is Charles Finney:

A man may believe in what is really a state of entire sanctification, and aim at attaining it, though he may not call it by that name. Mrs President Edwards, for example, aimed at it and manifestly attained it, and yet, such were her views of human infirmities, that she did not call her state one of entire sanctification. I care not what this state is called, if the thing be fully explained and insisted upon, together with the conditions of attaining it. Call it what you please: Christian perfection, heavenly-mindedness, the full assurance of faith or hope, or a state of entire consecration; by all these, I understand the same thing.
- Charles Finney, Finney on Revival, p.104

I don’t have any personal experience of this, but I think I have met someone who has. Some years ago I corresponded with a Quaker on another forum. She challenged me as to whether or not it was possible to live without sinning in this life. I felt very disconcerted, as I had never contemplated the possibility, but I could not refute her assertion that it was possible from Scripture. I asked her for her testimony. As she gave it, and thus put it in the public domain, I hope it is not wrong to quote part of it. This came after she had been born again and after she had had the revelation that she was crucified with Christ. She still had trouble with sin:

God has always spoken to me through books and at that time one fell into my hands "The Royal Invitation" by Francis Ridley Havergal. In it she told me that if we are still sinning we are not 'in the ark' or in Christ … I tell you I was greatly disturbed but still I did not find it in myself to consecrate myself fully so I followed this good lady's advice and asked God to do it for me as I was willing but not able.

I went to sleep that night and when I awoke I knew that God had done the thing. I was in a new creation. There are no words to describe this. I knew that my sin nature had been put in a death position and that for the first time in my life I loved God with all my heart soul and mind and could walk without sinning. I had thought that I had the new nature before but it was nothing like this. Everything was brand new. Everything from my past was totally healed and my heart was new. Obedience was easy and no evil thoughts came into my mind. I was pure and totally clean inside and knew that I pleased God at last. I sang praises to God all the day long. If we have the new nature then we do not sin because it is a NEW nature. And God keeps us from falling as it says in Jude. I was a new person and the former shyness went and I had a boldness I could not believe. I would speak to all and anyone about Christ and my words would knock them for six. I was also given the ability to heal by laying on my hands, something I had not believed before that. I was living the life of an apostle.

But it is possible to fall from this state and after a year and a half I did so and I have not regained it yet. I think that this time is one of being put on the shelf after experiencing the first fruits and I have been tempted like no time before.

 

[DarcyLu]

Hi Darcy

Believe this or not. Most everyone within this thread is tearing down, and not building up one another.

Believe it or not, most everyone who has been tearing down, is sinning. We all should acknowledge , that our own sin, right here within this thread. Shows the weakness of the flesh of the mind. We have become proud, yet knowing nothing. While claiming to know everything. We are throwing verses at one another, as if each and everyone of us, is looking at the other, as the enemy of God. Or that each one seems to know more than the other. While denying the very truths that are within the Word of God - that every man sins and falls short of the glory of God. Pride has taken over, right here within this thread.

Let me quote you a verse in Galatians chapter 3 and in verse 3 - "Are you so foolish ? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh ? " Remember Darcy, the Spirit is willing , but the flesh is weak. This is not to be looked upon as one who is claiming a justification to sin, just because a verse says we are weak in the flesh. Our perfection is not in the flesh. Our perfection is our walk in the Spirit. And only one has accomplished this perfect walk in the Spirit, and that one, is Jesus Christ.

In the book of James and in chapter 2 and verses 20 threw 26, we read that faith without works is dead. One can say they have faith, but without works their faith is dead. And as verse 26 states - "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so Faith without works is dead also"

It sounds great to hear people talk the talk, by quoting verses of scripture. But it is by our walk, and our works that manifest our faith. And because there has only been one who walked in perfection. We strive to walk like Christ walked. But be not decieved, if any man say he is without sin, he makes God a liar. And I am sure, we do not want to fall into that trap, now do we ?

Bless - IN Christ - MM

Hi MM,
I don’t see where anyone is tearing anyone else down, what I do see, is a conversation where we do not all agree and when people disagree sometimes it gets heated, but this conversation is fairly calm.
If you feel I did tear you down, then I am sorry, that was not my intention, I thought I was simply sharing my beliefs. i am really sorry for offending you.

God bless -

 

[DarcyLu]

God has always spoken to me through books and at that time one fell into my hands "The Royal Invitation" by Francis Ridley Havergal. In it she told me that if we are still sinning we are not 'in the ark' or in Christ … I tell you I was greatly disturbed but still I did not find it in myself to consecrate myself fully so I followed this good lady's advice and asked God to do it for me as I was willing but not able.

I went to sleep that night and when I awoke I knew that God had done the thing. I was in a new creation. There are no words to describe this. I knew that my sin nature had been put in a death position and that for the first time in my life I loved God with all my heart soul and mind and could walk without sinning. I had thought that I had the new nature before but it was nothing like this. Everything was brand new. Everything from my past was totally healed and my heart was new. Obedience was easy and no evil thoughts came into my mind. I was pure and totally clean inside and knew that I pleased God at last. I sang praises to God all the day long. If we have the new nature then we do not sin because it is a NEW nature. And God keeps us from falling as it says in Jude. I was a new person and the former shyness went and I had a boldness I could not believe. I would speak to all and anyone about Christ and my words would knock them for six. I was also given the ability to heal by laying on my hands, something I had not believed before that. I was living the life of an apostle.

But it is possible to fall from this state and after a year and a half I did so and I have not regained it yet. I think that this time is one of being put on the shelf after experiencing the first fruits and I have been tempted like no time before.

thanks for sharing Godfrey, do you know what happened and why she lost it?

 

[Danus]

I'd have to say that Paul's writings and the whole of scriptures found in the bible are written to sinners like you and I

But you won't find the following verses in the Bible:

(Acts 9:13 NIV) "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your sinners in Jerusalem.

(Acts 9:32 NIV) As Peter traveled about the country, he went to visit the sinners in Lydda.

(Acts 26:10 NIV) And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the sinners in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.

(Rom 1:7 NIV) To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be sinners: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Rom 8:27 NIV) And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the sinners in accordance with God's will.

(Rom 15:25 NIV) Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the sinners there.

(Rom 15:26 NIV) For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the sinners in Jerusalem.

(Rom 15:31 NIV) Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the sinners there,

(Rom 16:2 NIV) I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the sinners and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me.

(Rom 16:15 NIV) Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the sinners with them.

(1 Cor 6:1 NIV) If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the sinners?

(1 Cor 6:2 NIV) Do you not know that the sinners will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

(1 Cor 14:33 NIV) For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the sinners,

(1 Cor 16:15 NIV) You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the sinners. I urge you, brothers,

(2 Cor 1:1 NIV) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the sinners throughout Achaia:

(2 Cor 8:4 NIV) they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the sinners.

(2 Cor 9:1 NIV) There is no need for me to write to you about this service to the sinners.

(2 Cor 13:13 NIV) All the sinners send their greetings.

(Eph 1:1 NIV) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the sinners in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

(Eph 1:15 NIV) For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the sinners,

(Eph 1:18 NIV) I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the sinners,

(Eph 3:18 NIV) may have power, together with all the sinners, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,

(Eph 6:18 NIV) And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the sinners.

(Phil 1:1 NIV) Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the sinners in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:

(Phil 4:21 NIV) Greet all the sinners in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings.

(Phil 4:22 NIV) All the sinners send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar's household.

(Col 1:4 NIV) because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the sinners--

(Col 1:12 NIV) giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the sinners in the kingdom of light.

(Col 1:26 NIV) the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the sinners.

(1 Tim 5:10 NIV) and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the sinners, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

(Phile 1:5 NIV) because I hear about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the sinners.

(Phile 1:7 NIV) Your love has given me great joy and encouragement, because you, brother, have refreshed the hearts of the sinners.

(Jude 1:3 NIV) Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the sinners.

Well Godfrey, that depends on how you define a saint. If a saint is a sin free individual then I'll go with your distorted verses. If a saint is a "good well meaning Christian"; a follower of Christ to the highest degree but not "perfected" Then we can agree on scripture as it is written since that is how I read it. That might not be however, how some read it, or how some denominations read and feed it over the years to the "mass"es.

My full point, which you seemed to not want to address, was that we are all sinners regardless of how much we follow Christ or how much we believe we are not. That is also the point many others are trying to make here, and it's become about like trying to argue God to atheist as to the fire backs. That's what MM and others are trying to say about these conversations of Christians tearing down Christians.

I do however distinguish a willful sinner from those of us who chose to follow Christ; those who seek salvation, and I also "acquiesce" that one who follows Christ; who seeks salvation; can in fact defeat a sin in their lives through the power and word of Jesus Christ, but that does not mean that we can expect to be SIN FREE while we are hear on this earth breathing the breath of life. That is what the full scripture tell us. We are sinners. You may quote lines of scripture all you want about Jesus telling people to go and sin no more, or saints and yes we are to conform to the image of Christ and that is in fact what we are all trying to do and will continue to try and do. However, if you have indeed found yourself to be sin free in your life (which I say the bible it self says no one has) or know of someone that has, or perhaps someone reading this feels they in fact are sin free than I would like to suggest and urge that you give your bible to someone else who could use it since you are obviously done with it if in fact you meet that criteria. Further you may want to give up your seat in the church of your choice so that some else may have that seat. I say this with the utmost love and respect for my fellow christian brothers and sisters and I hope you will accept it as such. My intent is not to offend but to simply defend what I know in my heart the bible is speaking to us all.

Further I personalty feel that it is no wonder the secular world hates and laughs at us for making statements, or pretending, that we are perfected, especially when they can clearly see that we are not. Such manor will never win soles from the kingdom of Christ, and it's about time we get off our high horses and get down to the filth of this world with the word of Christ; because I am sure that for anyone of us who thinks he has reached perfection will surly be tested.

 

[DarcyLu]

[/quote]Well Godfrey, that depends on how you define a saint. If a saint is a sin free individual then I'll go with your distorted verses. If a saint is a "good well meaning Christian"; a follower of Christ to the highest degree but not "perfected" Then we can agree on scripture as it is written since that is how I read it. That might not be however, how some read it, or how some denominations read and feed it over the years to the "mass"es.

My full point, which you seemed to not want to address, was that we are all sinners regardless of how much we follow Christ or how much we believe we are not. That is also the point many others are trying to make here, and it's become about like trying to argue God to atheist as to the fire backs. That's what MM and others are trying to say about these conversations of Christians tearing down Christians.

I do however distinguish a willful sinner from those of us who chose to follow Christ; those who seek salvation, and I also "acquiesce" that one how follows Christ; who seeks salvation; can in fact defeat a sin in their lives through the power and word of Jesus Christ, but that does not mean that we can expect to be SIN FREE while we are hear on this earth breathing the breath of life. However, if you have indeed found yourself to be sin free or know of someone that has, or perhaps someone reading this is in fact sin free than I would like to suggest that you give your bible to someone else who could use it since you are obviously done with it if in fact you meet that criteria. [/quote]

Saints:

Original Word: ?????
Transliteration: hagios
Phonetic Spelling: (hag'-ee-os)
Short Definition: most holy

most holy, saint.
sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated) -- (most) holy (one, thing), saint.

 

[Danus]

Well Godfrey, that depends on how you define a saint. If a saint is a sin free individual then I'll go with your distorted verses. If a saint is a "good well meaning Christian"; a follower of Christ to the highest degree but not "perfected" Then we can agree on scripture as it is written since that is how I read it. That might not be however, how some read it, or how some denominations read and feed it over the years to the "mass"es.

My full point, which you seemed to not want to address, was that we are all sinners regardless of how much we follow Christ or how much we believe we are not. That is also the point many others are trying to make here, and it's become about like trying to argue God to atheist as to the fire backs. That's what MM and others are trying to say about these conversations of Christians tearing down Christians.

I do however distinguish a willful sinner from those of us who chose to follow Christ; those who seek salvation, and I also "acquiesce" that one how follows Christ; who seeks salvation; can in fact defeat a sin in their lives through the power and word of Jesus Christ, but that does not mean that we can expect to be SIN FREE while we are hear on this earth breathing the breath of life. However, if you have indeed found yourself to be sin free or know of someone that has, or perhaps someone reading this is in fact sin free than I would like to suggest that you give your bible to someone else who could use it since you are obviously done with it if in fact you meet that criteria. [/quote]

Saints:

Original Word: ?????
Transliteration: hagios
Phonetic Spelling: (hag'-ee-os)
Short Definition: most holy

most holy, saint.
sacred (physically, pure, morally blameless or religious, ceremonially, consecrated) -- (most) holy (one, thing), saint.[/quote]

Ah wonderful, Your skills with Google are impeccable, but I don't see sin free anywhere in that definition.

 

[DarcyLu]

Ah wonderful, Your skills with Google are impeccable, but I don't see sin free anywhere in that definition.

thanks, but i own a Strong's Concordance, just as it would come in handy for any Christian. i have many, many reference books, they come in handy. i think it's important sometimes to define what we are discussing and in this case it was "what does saint actually mean", i thought it was important to the topic at hand.

what i have seen on this thread is the people who are calling themselves "sinners forever in the flesh" getting really upset with people who happen to hold a different belief. the OP discussion is, once again, can people overcome sin?
that's it.....not "do you sin?"
i have not seen where anyone has said they have never sinned and i don't recall anyone saying they don't sin, i've explained my quest in previous posts.

 

[glorydaz]

That is why so many Christians die during the tribulation. They refused to have faith in the Word as it was written.

Of course it's not possible that so many die during the tribulation because they're ungodly.
I suppose you have some special revelation how many Christians will be killed for the faith, too.

Jesus was God's initiative. In Jesus we see the will of God refelcted: Mat 8:16 And when even was come, they brought unto him many possessed with demons: and he cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all that were sick:

This is the presumption I was talking about. If you want to form your own doctrine, you really should look at other verses besides those that support your agenda. You claim people aren't healed because they lack faith. You put the initiative on man... Forget about "according to His will"....it becomes according to man's will.

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:

God heals those on whom He has mercy.

Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants. For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God had mercy on him; and not on him only, but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.

In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years. When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole? The impotent man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me. Jesus saith unto him, Rise, take up thy bed, and walk. And immediately the man was made whole, and took up his bed, and walked: and on the same day was the sabbath.

True, but that does not mean that our WORDS must contradict the Bible because some of these verses are still waiting to be manifested fully. We do not need to SEE it with our physical eyes to believe it.Joh 20:29 ....blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Ah yes, the word of faith. My sister was into Amway for awhile and they push that doctrine pretty strong. Put a picture of a Farari on your fridge and have enough faith it will be yours. ;)

So, you can claim to be perfect by faith...even though it won't be manifest until the Lord comes.
That must make your neighbors roll their eyes. In other words...you're standing on the promises of being able to be sin-free, even though it isn't manifested yet. I get it.

(Why do you teach on an international forum when you do not read your Bible ?)


I love people, but I cannot bear it when somebody abuses the Word of God to fit their doctrine. !

Is this really necessary? If you want to go there...I can.
I read the Bible...I just don't read into the Bible the way you seem to.
So, I come on this forum to dispute the false teaching of those who make the claims you do. :nod

 

[Danus]

Ah wonderful, Your skills with Google are impeccable, but I don't see sin free anywhere in that definition.

thanks, but i own a Strong's Concordance, just as it would come in handy for any Christian. i have many, many reference books, they come in handy. i think it's important sometimes to define what we are discussing and in this case it was "what does saint actually mean", i thought it was important to the topic at hand.

what i have seen on this thread is the people who are calling themselves "sinners forever in the flesh" getting really upset with people who happen to hold a different belief. the OP discussion is, once again, can people overcome sin?
that's it.....not "do you sin?"
i have not seen where anyone has said they have never sinned and i don't recall anyone saying they don't sin, i've explained my quest in previous posts.

Fair enough.

I have read quite a few post on here and it just seems we are all spiting hairs on the definition of sin, when sin is sin. It is simply that which separate us from God. Further, there is a feel that some are pointing to being sin free as to imply that we are able to accomplish that. Can you with the help of Christ, sure, but you will still have your nature until such time as you leave this physical earth. That's the point of Christ.

In my time with Christians and non Christians, I have seen many people hurt spiritually with talk of perfection and living sin free lives as if that is our total mission and focus as Christians. Don't get me wrong, we are to be perfected in Christ, Christ is our model, but we are also taught that that will NOT happen at this time. When we die as believers we will be with the lord and at some point we will all see a perfect haven on earth. This universe will be transformed to what it was intended to be before the fall. Why then, do so many of us beat this sin free idea into the minds and hearts of so many as if that is some way to win people to our lord? It's the biggest turn off to God ever. What then is the point of Christ?

I've known fine Christians who fall to sin. There have been wonderful people who have walked with God and who have taken great sins to the grave with them. Does that mean that they are not saved? NO, and it does not mean that they have not struggled with their sins or prayed hard enough.

God works on all of us in his own way, in his own time for his own purpose. Those of us who chose God, who have chosen his free gift of salvation, do not need to be told of our sins, or have our sins categorized in some way, or told how we might overcome them. That is between God and each individual. No one who reads the bible with a minimum 5th grade understanding of it does not understand their sins or their path to salvation.

We all start as believers right where we are and it begins there. It ends when we are called home. If you believe in Christ, if you have accepted his salvation, then you are saved. If you reject God and turn away from his free gift then you are not saved. You may or may not be a good Christian, but you are still a Christian. I suppose you might loose your salvation if and when you reject or turn from it, but I subscribe to the idea that once we earnestly accept Christ he does not let us get away. The hope is that we may grow in our relationship with Christ and be closer to that perfection.

The Lord has hooked his staff around the neck of many a believer to pull them back into the fold from their sin. happens all the time. The only people who don't sin are those who know nothing of sin or the need for salvation. Right now we have tons of non believers who in their heart do not sin. Their empty and unfulfilled, but they don't know why because they no little of sin or have rejected the message from Christians because they feel they can never live up to it, so why bother? So, they fill their empty lives with everything but God. When do we face those people and say it's OK, we are no better.

The only difference is our salvation. We are all sinners and some of us fall hard even after we accept Christ. Thank the Lord that he does not just leave us where we are; where we where when we first meet him.

 

[glorydaz]

There have been some soulish interactions on this thread. It just goes to show there are none righteous...just as the Word tells us. All men sin and come short of the glory of God. Coming short is sin.

Jesus Christ was the only perfect man...and even he learned obedience by the things which he suffered. That's the reason I don't like hearing this "word of faith" teaching. When we ask for anything, it must be "according to His will," His answer may be "No" because we learn to obey through trials, tribulations, and often infirmities and illness. It isn't indicative of a lack of faith at all. When we accuse one another of a lack of faith...or lack of Bible reading, we are presuming to know more than God does, and judging another without taking into consideration the whole Word of God.

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The brother spoke rightly that said God provides a way of escape. As we flee from temptation we can have victory over that particular sin for that particular time. Just when we get comfortable, God will bring along another test..another trial...another infirmity. He is faithful to supply us with occassions to sin, so we can resist and be built up. It's the refining God has in mind for all his children.

We see the "body of sin"...there's a reason for that.
What we see is that sin no longer has "dominion" over us...we no longer have to "serve" sin.
We are freed from "obeying the lusts" of the flesh...we are not to "yield" our body so that sin no longer "reigns". The more we yield to the Holy Spirit, the less we'll sin...but we are still in this body. We have a mind, will, and emotions (soul) to contend with. Pride never lets go easily. In fact, the more we have the obvious sins under control, the more room is left for pride in our victory over those sins.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[DarcyLu]

The brother spoke rightly that said God provides a way of escape. As we flee from temptation we can have victory over that particular sin for that particular time.

yes, that brother, who was Cornelius btw, is correct when he mentioned in this thread.

We are free to choose against sin and God makes a way out of temptation for us every time. Also we are told that He will not allow us to be tempted above that which we can bear: meaning of course that we will be able to resist the temptation if it come, resulting in us NOT sinning.

He is faithful to supply us with occassions to sin.

do you have scriptue for this?

 

[watchman F]

It is part of Christ prayer that we would be perfect in one with Him.

John 17
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

We are clothed with the same glory Christ was clothed with. We are empowered by the same Holy Spirit that kept Christ from sin, and Jesus was just as human as we are if christ could remain sinless so can we as Jesus Himself said ''even greater things that He will wee do''. Is there anything greater than remaining perfectly obedient to the Father?

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


Either you believe God's word is true and that He can perfect us, causing us to walk totally sin free, or you should just toss out your bibles. Why read something you cant accept as truth anyway?

 

[glorydaz]

The brother spoke rightly that said God provides a way of escape. As we flee from temptation we can have victory over that particular sin for that particular time.

yes, that brother, who was Cornelius btw, is correct when he mentioned in this thread.

He wasn't the brother I was referring to....it's admirable, though, that you see it as your duty to make sure he gets the credit. Perhaps it's the "NOT sinning" part that caught my eye when he posted this. Plus, he didn't use the word "escape"...which immediately put me in mind of the verse.

We are free to choose against sin and God makes a way out of temptation for us every time. Also we are told that He will not allow us to be tempted above that which we can bear: meaning of course that we will be able to resist the temptation if it come, resulting in us NOT sinning.

He is faithful to supply us with occassions to sin.

do you have scriptue for this?

Well, since nothing happens to us but what God allows, that seems evident.
I really doubt I need to find a scripture for this one.
Any time God gives us a command, He gives us an occasion to sin...does He not?
We obey, or we sin. See what I mean?

Did God offer Abraham an occasion to sin when He told him to offer his son, Isaac?
Does God offer me an occasion to sin when he allows me to post on this board?
If He didn't want me to be tempted, He would make sure my computer broke down.
Either that, or he is building up my patience...which is what I, for one, need.

 

[Cornelius]

But you won't find the following verses in the Bible:

(Acts 9:13 NIV) "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your sinners in Jerusalem.

(Acts 9:32 NIV) As Peter traveled about the country, he went to visit the sinners in Lydda.

(Acts 26:10 NIV) And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the sinners in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.

(Rom 1:7 NIV) To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be sinners: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

(Rom 8:27 NIV) And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the sinners in accordance with God's will.

(Rom 15:25 NIV) Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the sinners there.

(Rom 15:26 NIV) For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the sinners in Jerusalem.

(Rom 15:31 NIV) Pray that I may be rescued from the unbelievers in Judea and that my service in Jerusalem may be acceptable to the sinners there,

(Rom 16:2 NIV) I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of the sinners and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been a great help to many people, including me.

(Rom 16:15 NIV) Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the sinners with them.

(1 Cor 6:1 NIV) If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the sinners?

(1 Cor 6:2 NIV) Do you not know that the sinners will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases?

(1 Cor 14:33 NIV) For God is not a God of disorder but of peace. As in all the congregations of the sinners,

(1 Cor 16:15 NIV) You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the sinners. I urge you, brothers,

(2 Cor 1:1 NIV) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the sinners throughout Achaia:

(2 Cor 8:4 NIV) they urgently pleaded with us for the privilege of sharing in this service to the sinners.

(2 Cor 9:1 NIV) There is no need for me to write to you about this service to the sinners.

(2 Cor 13:13 NIV) All the sinners send their greetings.

(Eph 1:1 NIV) Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the sinners in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:

(Eph 1:15 NIV) For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the sinners,

(Eph 1:18 NIV) I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the sinners,

(Eph 3:18 NIV) may have power, together with all the sinners, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,

(Eph 6:18 NIV) And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the sinners.

(Phil 1:1 NIV) Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the sinners in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:

(Phil 4:21 NIV) Greet all the sinners in Christ Jesus. The brothers who are with me send greetings.

(Phil 4:22 NIV) All the sinners send you greetings, especially those who belong to Caesar's household.

(Col 1:4 NIV) because we have heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love you have for all the sinners--

(Col 1:12 NIV) giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the sinners in the kingdom of light.

(Col 1:26 NIV) the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the sinners.

(1 Tim 5:10 NIV) and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the sinners, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

(Phile 1:5 NIV) because I hear about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the sinners.

(Phile 1:7 NIV) Your love has given me great joy and encouragement, because you, brother, have refreshed the hearts of the sinners.

(Jude 1:3 NIV) Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the sinners.

Amen brother and yet this is exactly what they preach

 

[Cornelius]

Oh dear Godfrey now I cannot stop laughing, I keep on reading those verses and .....

But seriously this is difficult to understand, because we indeed see that the Scriptures speak of both , sin and perfection. So we have to understand how to understand it. The key is of course faith. We speak things which are not as yet manifested, but we speak of them ....as done ! just because we see it written. Here Paul does it as well :Php 3:12 Not that I have already obtained, or am already made perfect:......
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect,....... LOL can you see Paul is speaking his reality and then he switches over into speaking by faith........"as many as ARE perfect.....

The mistake people make is to speak their experience (which will ALWAYS and obviously, be the opposite of what the Word says) We are expected to speak the Word and not our experience

For those who really want to understand this, here is a link to a few hours of teaching on this called "Perfection through Christ" These audio teachings will clarify this matter for many and you will see that it is something that is already done for you. So it takes the "panic" out of those words "Be ye perfect "

I strongly recommend listening to these, if you want to come to a better understanding of this matter, which is at the very core of our Christian walk.

blessings
C

Scroll down the page to "True Gospel" you will find "Perfection through Christ" there. After it you will see "The Real Good News" which is a wonderful series and very liberating, speaking on everything that Jesus has ALREADY done for us. These two series are great and easy to listen to. I found myself listening to as many of them as I could possible fit into one day LOL

http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.or ... bs-onehour