Sin

[Drew]

Really, Drew, don't you see that it's a lack of faith on your part to believe the Lord is NOT ABLE to keep those the Father has given Him?

Obviously begs the question. You simply assume that you are correct and that I do not have the "faith" to see things your way.

You continue to refuse to deal with what the text actually says.

This is really what this issue turns on - the willingness to let the text say what it says.

 

[glorydaz]

Obviously begs the question. You simply assume that you are correct and that I do not have the "faith" to see things your way.

You continue to refuse to deal with what the text actually says.

This is really what this issue turns on - the willingness to let the text say what it says.

I shouldn't have said "you" didn't have faith. I AM saying those who are convinced a believer can lose his salvation are lacking the key component of our faith...which is an earnest expectation (the blessed hope) that Jesus is able to save His own to the uttermost. Doubt has no place in hope and faith. In order to believe one's salvation can be lost, one must totally ignore the Promises and the Power of God, AND stand, instead, on verses that aren't actually saying what you think.

I do believe I'm dealing with what the text "actually says". Case in point, your understanding that Paul means individual "believers" when he is actually saying, "Gentiles" as a nation. In order to believe Paul is speaking of individual believers, you must deny the many promises that state quite clearly the Lord is able to keep all the Father has given Him....that He has bought us with the price of His blood and preserves us unto eternal life.

Believers are "clean every whit", the blood has washed away ALL our sin. Our salvation is assured, and we need only "foot washings" (confession of our sins) to continue our "walk" in fellowship with the Lord.

Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

 

[glorydaz]

Sounds right if read right. huh! (Heb. 6:6 + 2 Peter 2:19 'Promising them LIBERTY' on through to verse 22)

1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" And that proves what???

Yet, I do agree that most know NO more about being Born Again than they do about LOVING CHRIST! 'IF, IF, IF ye love Me keep My Commandments'! (even try Rev. 12:17 for whose Commandments they are!) So in that sense there is much Truth with in STAYING IN GARBAGE or Peter's words of VOMIT doctrine! Rev. 18:4


And the Atonement is not FINISHED YET!

--Elijah

Ah, yes, another famous verse that is misunderstood. "It is impossible"...."if they shall fall away"....to renew them again unto repentance. In other words, if a believer falls away, he can never come back? Is that what you believe that portion of scripture is saying? Paul is obviously persuaded bettter ....things that accompany salvation.

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Yes, this too. A warning to those who hear the Gospel message, but turn back before they are born again as new creatures. It's a sad case, and way too common.

For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

Of course the atonement is finished...completed with Christ's death and resurrection.

 

[NarrowGate]

if you are saved can you sin?

why do people say that if you sin too much when saved then you go to hell?

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How many sins are there?

is pride the root of sin?

Very lengthy question if anwsered property! Most dont know what it means to be saved. Most take being saved and having salvation as one in the same when they are not. It takes a study on the greek of the two words to understand that.

If you have salvation you have been born of the spirit. If you are born of the spirit you cannot sin!

Jhn 3:3 KJV - Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

If we look at the greek of the word again we see the below word and how the biblical usuage is defined. If we are born again we are born of God. Then we go on to the next scripture which anwsers your first question.
anōthen
1) from above, from a higher place
a) of things which come from heaven or God
2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3) anew, over again

1Jo 3:9 KJV - Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Now salvation is not instant! It is a process we go through of being refined and shaped by Jesus.(being built into spiritual stones in Gods house) As we go through this process we will sin and be forgiven(unless we blaspheme Holy Spirit). But once we have established ourselves on the foundation of God we will not be shaken by any trial or temptation. We are kept by the power of God! Now during this process we will face many sins which leads to your next question. How many sins are there?

First we must define sin! What is sin?

1Jo 5:17 NIV - All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.

Here we see all wrongdoing is sin. What is wrongdoing? The greek word is
adikia
1) injustice, of a judge
2) unrighteousness of heart and life
3) a deed violating law and justice, act of unrighteousness

So sin is violating the law and it is confirmed again in 1jo 3:4

1Jo 3:4 KJV - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

So if we trangress the law we are sinning! What law? We do not have to keep the commandments right! So if we break a commandment we sin! Then we also have the sins of the flesh and the sins of the mind.

Eph 2:3 KJV - Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Gal 5:19 KJV - Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 KJV - Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 KJV - Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Col 3:5 KJV - Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 KJV - For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:8 KJV - But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 KJV - Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Here is a very important question! What happens if we live in sin? If we are not making that effort to overcome our sins?

Rom 6:23 KJV - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Thats right the wages of sin is death!

Is pride the root of all sin?
No! The root of all sin is satan and the fleshly nature!

Mat 13:38 NIV - The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 NIV - and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.
Mat 13:40 NIV - "As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
Mat 13:41 NIV - The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
Mat 13:42 NIV - They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This should make a person step back and stop teaching we will always be in sin! That it is a part of our christian walk. We are to overcome our sins by the power of God. To many false teachers out there. If a person was sent from God and teaching the truth people would repent and get out of sin!

Jer 23:21 KJV - I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.
Jer 23:22 KJV - But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

and their will be those who hear the truth and turn!

2Ch 7:14 KJV - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

 

[Drew]

I shouldn't have said "you" didn't have faith. I AM saying those who are convinced a believer can lose his salvation are lacking the key component of our faith...which is an earnest expectation (the blessed hope) that Jesus is able to save His own to the uttermost. Doubt has no place in hope and faith.

This obviously begs the question. You presume that salvation cannot be lost and then suggest that those who believe otherwise do not have enough faith. This is clearly an invalid line of reasoning. I could, adopting this line of reasoning, assert that if you have real faith, you will never get cancer, and then conclude that those who get cancer do not have real faith.

You need to deal with the texts and the associated arguments, and not question the faith of those who do not share your view.

In order to believe one's salvation can be lost, one must totally ignore the Promises and the Power of God, AND stand, instead, on verses that aren't actually saying what you think.

Well, let's look at the texts.

I do believe I'm dealing with what the text "actually says". Case in point, your understanding that Paul means individual "believers" when he is actually saying, "Gentiles" as a nation.

This argument has already been challenged, and successfully I would suggest. If you take this "nation line", then you have Paul warning the believers that if they don't behave themselves the offer of salvation to the nation of Gentiles will be withdrawn. Not a position I suggest that you really want to embrace.

The text says what it says - Paul warns his Gentile readers (while is a "group", it is also, obviously, a collection of individuals) that, if they don't behave themselves, they will suffer the same fate as hardened Jews. And that fate clearly involves final loss.

In order to believe Paul is speaking of individual believers, you must deny the many promises that state quite clearly the Lord is able to keep all the Father has given Him....that He has bought us with the price of His blood and preserves us unto eternal life.

Again, let's have the texts and I (and others) can address them.

Believers are "clean every whit", the blood has washed away ALL our sin. Our salvation is assured, and we need only "foot washings" (confession of our sins) to continue our "walk" in fellowship with the Lord.

Begs the question.