Sin

[Alabaster]

Biblical evidence please. And if you find some, then we have an inconsistency in the Scriptures because, as you have already been shown, the following text is clearly directed at Gentile believers (note the reference to "standing in faith") being warned about the possibility of being removed from the family of God. You have not yet seriously engaged this text. And no wonder - it is manifestly clear that this text raises the possibilility of a believer falling away:

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (U)I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might (V)move to jealousy (W)my fellow countrymen and (X)save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the (Y)reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (Z)life from the dead? 16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19(AE)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

How is this not a slam-dunk against "one saved always saved"? What position is his Gentile audience in? They, yes, stand by faith. So they are clearly believers. And what does Paul say to them? He warns them that the possibility exists that they will removed from the family of God.

Now please - deal with this particular text and tell us how your position still work.

People walk away from God all the time. I am well aware that Jesus has an eraser:

Revelation 3:5 NLT
All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine.

True salvation where one has a relationship with God, even though one fails Him from time to time---is permanent. God is the keeper.

Your passage has to do with the Gentile people as a whole, and not individuals. God could easily have canceled His plan and removed the Gentile graft, but He didn't.

 

[Drew]

Your passage has to do with the Gentile people as a whole, and not individuals. God could easily have canceled His plan and removed the Gentile graft, but He didn't.

This argument simply cannot work. Let's say it were correct. Then what would we have? We would have Paul warning his readers of the possibility that the "Gentile people as a whole" could be cut off from the family of God.

Do you really want to go there? On the line of reasoning you seem to be offering, it is possible that God will decide that Gentiles, as a group - including probably > 99 % of all humans who have ever lived - will be "broken off" from God's family.

The "whole" vs "individual" argument does not work here.

 

[Alabaster]

This argument simply cannot work. Let's say it were correct. Then what would we have? We would have Paul warning his readers of the possibility that the "Gentile people as a whole" could be cut off from the family of God.

Do you really want to go there? On the line of reasoning you seem to be offering, it is possible that God will decide that Gentiles, as a group - including probably > 99 % of all humans who have ever lived - will be "broken off" from God's family.

The "whole" vs "individual" argument does not work here.

It works just fine.

The Gentiles being offered salvation and a reconciliation with Jehovah was a new and a BIG thing.

It was a definite warning to the Gentiles as a whole that God out of His great love and goodness has extended salvation to them, and if it is spurned, it can be removed as an offer. God has already told the Jews that He has hardened their hearts and is now turning to the Gentile.

 

[Drew]

It works just fine.

The Gentiles being offered salvation and a reconciliation with Jehovah was a new and a BIG thing.

It was a definite warning to the Gentiles as a whole that God out of His great love and goodness has extended salvation to them, and if it is spurned, it can be removed as an offer. God has already told the Jews that He has hardened their hearts and is now turning to the Gentile.

You are simply not honouring what Paul actually writes - this habit of yours (and others) of simply denying the text is something that needs to be pointed out and dealt with.

If this was just a question of "spurning an offer", then Paul would not have characterized his Gentile audience as "standing in faith". So Paul clearly sees his Gentile audience as already being in a position of faith. So this text cannot be about might happen if the Gentile spurn an offer - it is clear that the Gentile audience is already in a "faith" position.

 

[Alabaster]

You are simply not honouring what Paul actually writes - this habit of yours (and others) of simply denying the text is something that needs to be pointed out and dealt with.

I dealt with it years ago.

If this was just a question of "spurning an offer", then Paul would not have characterized his Gentile audience as "standing in faith". So Paul clearly sees his Gentile audience as already being in a position of faith. So this text cannot be about might happen if the Gentile spurn an offer - it is clear that the Gentile audience is already in a "faith" position.

Romans 11:23-24 The Message
23-24And don't get to feeling superior to those pruned branches down on the ground. If they don't persist in remaining deadwood, they could very well get grafted back in. God can do that. He can perform miracle grafts. Why, if he could graft you—branches cut from a tree out in the wild—into an orchard tree, he certainly isn't going to have any trouble grafting branches back into the tree they grew from in the first place. Just be glad you're in the tree, and hope for the best for the others.

It all has to do with His plan. He could easily go back on His plan and regraft the Jew back in, disfellowshiping with the Gentile as a people---not individuals.

 

[Drew]

I dealt with it years ago.



Romans 11:23-24 The Message
23-24And don't get to feeling superior to those pruned branches down on the ground. If they don't persist in remaining deadwood, they could very well get grafted back in. God can do that. He can perform miracle grafts. Why, if he could graft you—branches cut from a tree out in the wild—into an orchard tree, he certainly isn't going to have any trouble grafting branches back into the tree they grew from in the first place. Just be glad you're in the tree, and hope for the best for the others.

It all has to do with His plan. He could easily go back on His plan and regraft the Jew back in, disfellowshiping with the Gentile as a people---not individuals.

The Message is not a very accurate translation. Look at all these other translations of the critical verse where Paul specfically identifies the Gentiles as "standing in faith":

NET: Granted! 1 They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear!

NASB: Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear

NIV: Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid

NRSV: That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe

NKJV: Well said . Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.

The Message is a paraphrase, and as such involves the taking of "editorial liberties". All these other translations clearly identify the Gentiles, who are being warned, as standing in a position of faith.

Do you really want to go with the credibility of "the Message"? We can go down that road if you like, comparing the text of "the Message" with the original Greek.

Besides, on your reading we have Paul saying that if his Gentile readers do not behave themselves, God will withdraw salvation from all Gentiles. You have placed the eternal fate of millions in the hands of the behaviour of the church at Rome. I think that puts you in an even worse position.

 

[Alabaster]

Uh, The Message is not a translation. It is a paraphrase. I posted it for the clarity some people need.

We all paraphrase. Peterson paraphrases better than I do. I don't get bent out of shape when a paraphrase is used in conjunction with translated scripture.



I have nothing to do with the church of Rome, thanks.

 

[francisdesales]

I have nothing to do with the church of Rome, thanks.

Do you like our New Testament? ;)

 

[Alabaster]

Do you like our New Testament? ;)

LOL! How new is it?

I don't mean to say there are not wonderful born again Christians in the RCC. There are, and I know some and love them! I just have enough difference with the RCC to stay away from it. No offense intended to you, francis.

 

[Free]

Uh, The Message is not a translation. It is a paraphrase.

The Message is a paraphrase

I posted it for the clarity some people need.

For clarity? What extra clarity does it provide over many other translations which are superior?

Romans 11:23-24 The Message
23-24And don't get to feeling superior to those pruned branches down on the ground. If they don't persist in remaining deadwood, they could very well get grafted back in. God can do that. He can perform miracle grafts. Why, if he could graft you—branches cut from a tree out in the wild—into an orchard tree, he certainly isn't going to have any trouble grafting branches back into the tree they grew from in the first place. Just be glad you're in the tree, and hope for the best for the others.

It all has to do with His plan. He could easily go back on His plan and regraft the Jew back in, disfellowshiping with the Gentile as a people---not individuals.

I fail to see how this shows that God is dealing with the Gentiles as a people and not as individuals. The text is quite clear that God is speaking to Gentile believers as individuals.

"His plan?" Just what is His plan? Hasn't His plan always been to bring salvation and renewal to the entirety of Creation through the Messiah of the Jewish people? If "going back on His plan" precludes the Gentiles from salvation, it precludes the Jews as well. You are making it sound as though salvation for the Gentiles was a secondary thought.

 

[Alabaster]

For clarity? What extra clarity does it provide over many other translations which are superior?


I fail to see how this shows that God is dealing with the Gentiles as a people and not as individuals. The text is quite clear that God is speaking to Gentile believers as individuals.

"His plan?" Just what is His plan? Hasn't His plan always been to bring salvation and renewal to the entirety of Creation through the Messiah of the Jewish people? If "going back on His plan" precludes the Gentiles from salvation, it precludes the Jews as well. You are making it sound as though salvation for the Gentiles was a secondary thought.

I cannot make it clearer for you. Sorry you misunderstand. The passage is regarding the plan for the Gentile to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. If the Gentile doesn't respond as a whole, and remains stiff-necked as the Jews have done, then He was not averse to revamping His plan to regrafting the Jew branch back into where they had been removed.

 

[Free]

I cannot make it clearer for you. Sorry you misunderstand. The passage is regarding the plan for the Gentile to be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. If the Gentile doesn't respond as a whole, and remains stiff-necked as the Jews have done, then He was not averse to revamping His plan to regrafting the Jew branch back into where they had been removed.

But then we're doomed no matter what since the Gentiles will never respond as a whole.

Again, Paul is clearly talking to Gentile believers as individuals, that though they are grafted in, God can remove them. There is nothing in what you have posted that shows otherwise.

 

[Alabaster]

But then we're doomed no matter what since the Gentiles will never respond as a whole.

Again, Paul is clearly talking to Gentile believers as individuals, that though they are grafted in, God can remove them. There is nothing in what you have posted that shows otherwise.

There is a global Body of Christ made up of a myriad Gentile believers. We are not doomed at all!

Sorry, I disagree with you.

 

[Free]

There is a global Body of Christ made up of a myriad Gentile believers. We are not doomed at all!

But you said "If the Gentile doesn't respond as a whole." Now you are going against that. If Paul is speaking to Gentiles "as a whole," as you stated, then we're all doomed since Gentiles will never "respond as a whole."

Sorry, I disagree with you.

It's not me you are disagreeing with.

 

[Alabaster]

But you said "If the Gentile doesn't respond as a whole." Now you are going against that. If Paul is speaking to Gentiles "as a whole," as you stated, then we're all doomed since Gentiles will never "respond as a whole."

The Church of Jesus Christ is made up of both Gentiles and Jews. Holy Spirit is alive and well and working in and through us in magnificent ways. Gentiles have received the word of God, and individuals have rejected it. It is not the individuals to whom he is speaking.

It's not me you are disagreeing with.

It sure is.

 

[glorydaz]

The reason for my position is simple - Paul makes it clear that his warning about ultimate loss is specifically addressed to Gentile believers. Here is the text again - I will not tire of re-posting it since it clearly shows that Paul is warning Gentile believers about the possibility of final loss:

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (U)I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might (V)move to jealousy (W)my fellow countrymen and (X)save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the (Y)reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (Z)life from the dead? 16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19(AE)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;

Who "stands in faith", glorydaz? All Gentiles - believer and non-believer alike.

Clearly the answer is that Paul is addressing Gentile believers. It is only the believer who stands in faith.

No..........does he call them brothers? He calls them Gentiles. I'm sure many of the gentiles in Rome were believers, but not all...just like in any assembly. But Paul was saying the Gentiles have been grafted onto the good olive tree. Do you see the part about the root? The Gentiles have been grafted onto the root. This is not the root of Christ, but the root of the covenant promises to Israel. Unbelievers now had the same access to the promises and blessings of the patriarchs. You continue to place the "gentile" into the category of the individual, instead of the category of nations...as Israel is a nation. I'm not sure why you keep ignoring the fact that the gentiles were now put on equal footing with Israel. That is the context of the entire text. The Gentiles, of free grace, had been grafted in to share advantages. They should therefore beware of self-confidence, and every kind of pride or ambition, else having only a dead faith, and an empty profession, they should turn from God, and forfeit their privileges which was access to the promises through faith.

Perhaps if you didn't have a preconceived notion that a person can lose their salvation, you'd be able to have a clearer idea of the entire text. Grace has been extended to all men and the entire world now.... through grace and faith. The Gentiles had no right to stand on faith prior to their being accepted into the covenant promises. Israel had a covenant with God...as a nation. The Gentiles now have a covenant with God...as a nation. It is the New Covenant of grace and faith. The prison doors have been opened.....Whosoever will may come.

 

[glorydaz]

And you (and others) need to take heed of what Paul actually writes and pay less attention to your tradition.

This is really quite a remarkable thread. We have a text - Roman 11 - where Paul clearly addresses Gentile believers and warns them about possibly being "cut off" from the true family of God.

Yet despite this clear and unambiguous warning, you and glorydaz seem to be willing to dismiss Paul's warning and cling to the position that a believer cannot be lost. It may be comforting to believe this, but I see no way to defend such a position scripturally.

Really, Drew, don't you see that it's a lack of faith on your part to believe the Lord is NOT ABLE to keep those the Father has given Him? We talk of the "hope" that all believers have. That "hope" is not the kind we know in the world, where we hope we win the lottery. It's an ernest expection...assurance and confidence that God is able to finish the work He began. When we are born again...we are not our own. We have been bought with a price.

 

[glorydaz]

Salvation is permanent. If we walk away from that wonderful knowledge of God in Jesus Christ, then we were never truly converted in the first place.

Apostate people have had serious issues with God from the beginning, as we are asked to surrender ourselves to the Holy Spirit, to be filled up to overflowing. These people have never done that. They have usually been those who give a mental assent to Jesus, but have not allowed Him entrance into theirs lives and hearts. They are apostatic to their former belief, but have never known Jesus Christ as Lord.

A Spirit-filled and Spirit-led Christian doesn't necessarily sin every day.

Amen......1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

 

[Elijah674]

Amen......1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Sounds right if read right. huh! (Heb. 6:6 + 2 Peter 2:19 'Promising them LIBERTY' on through to verse 22)

1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" And that proves what??????

Yet, I do agree that most know NO more about being Born Again than they do about LOVING CHRIST! 'IF, IF, IF ye love Me keep My Commandments'! (even try Rev. 12:17 for whose Commandments they are!) So in that sense there is much Truth with in STAYING IN GARBAGE or Peter's words of VOMIT doctrine! Rev. 18:4

And the Atonement is not FINISHED YET!

--Elijah

 

[francisdesales]

LOL! How new is it?

I don't mean to say there are not wonderful born again Christians in the RCC. There are, and I know some and love them! I just have enough difference with the RCC to stay away from it. No offense intended to you, francis.

I understand you have disagreements with some of what the Catholic Church teaches. So did I. But faith leads to understanding, and I believe Christ only established one visible church. After study, I understand better. My point, though, is that whether you know it or like it, you are Catholic at some level while you read our book (New Testament) and believe our beliefs (baptism as entrance into the Church, Trinity, Jesus is God, Virgin birth, bodily resurrection, etc...)

Regards