Sin

[glorydaz]

You are not engaging the text. You cannot (properly anyway) address my challenge simply by quoting other texts.

So I will repeat - how can the Romans 11 material be read as anything other than a warning to the believing Gentile that final loss is a possibility. Please address the Romans 11 text itself and explain how it can be read as anything other than a warning about the possibility of final loss for the believing Gentile.

The Gentiles are not being grafted into Christ, but into a Covenant relationship...such as the nation of Israel had where some believed and some didn't. Those who don't believe will be cut off.

 

[glorydaz]

You are obviously begging the question (assuming the truth of the position that you should be demonstrating). I suggest you will not be able to produce any Biblically grounded argument for "one saved always saved".


You are evading the challenge. I am not talking about the promised "return to fulness" of national Israel - I am talking about Paul's explicit statement to Gentiles. You are simply avoiding a text which, of course, is exceedingly challenging to the position to which you ascribe. To repeat:

1. Paul issues a warning to Gentiles who, yes, stand in faith. Such Gentiles must, of course, be believers. Non-believers cannot be characterized as "standing in faith".

2. Paul warns them of the possibility that they will suffer the same fate as those Jews who were hardened to final loss.

Do you dispute either or both of these statements?:

I am aware of the stuff at the end of chapter which seemingly speaks of Israel's return to fulness. However, the fact that Paul talks about this at the end of the chapter does not negate his warning to the Gentile believer.

He isn't speaking of Gentile believers...he is speaking of the reconciling of the whole world which brings in (grafts) non-Jews into a covenant relationship with God. "Standing in faith" is throwing you off. It simply means that faith is the means by which they may partake of the covenant blessings....Mercy and grace through faith is the New Covenant.

Because of the unfaithfulness of the Jews and their rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, the natural branches were broken off from the olive tree (of which Abraham is the root.) He is the father of faith. Israel failed, and so these branches were torn out of the tree of the covenant. In place of them, wild branches (Gentiles) were grafted in... Gentile nations who previously had no covenant with God. They had no promised blessings. With the New Covenant of grace, they have been reconciled to God by Jesus' death on the cross. This is all about covenants and not about individual salvation.

 

[glorydaz]

Regarding true believers, the Lord Jesus said that noone could pluck them out of His Father's hand.

Amen, Farouk. We also have Christ's intercessory prayers, "saved to the uttermost", keeping us through His Power, preserving us for ultimate glory, and being "bought with a price". We can't forget the promises of God when we come across certain verses that might not be as easy to understand.

 

[Drew]

Regarding true believers, the Lord Jesus said that noone could pluck them out of His Father's hand.

Such a statement does not preclude the possibility that the believer could freely choose to turn their back on God and ultimately be lost.

Again, for those of us committed to an exegesis that honours the specific details of the text, I do not see how the material we have been discussing (from Romans 11) can be read as anything other than a warning of the possiblity of ultimate loss for the believer.

farouk, are you willing to engage the challenges that I (and Free) have been posing in respect to reading the Romans 11 material?

 

[Drew]

He isn't speaking of Gentile believers...

He most certainly is speaking to Gentile believers in the material at issue - there is no doubt of this. Again, you simply ignore the clear content of the text and / or are concerned with another section of the chapter. The following text demonstrates beyond any doubt that Paul indeed has something to say to Gentile believers:

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry......

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

I guarantee you that no Biblical scholar will dispute the fact that the "natural branches" refers to Jews and the the "you" here refers to Gentiles.

It is time to take the text seriously - even though Paul does say a lot of things in chapter 11, one of the things on his mind is a warning, directed specifically at the Gentile believer, raising the possiblity of their ultimate loss.

 

[francisdesales]

He most certainly is speaking to Gentile believers in the material at issue - there is no doubt of this. Again, you simply ignore the clear content of the text and / or are concerned with another section of the chapter. The following text demonstrates beyond any doubt that Paul indeed has something to say to Gentile believers:

Agreed...

Clearly, Paul is speaking of BELIEVERS being made part of the "Tree", since Jewish non-believers in Christ are noted as being separated from the tree, branches broken off (but can later be grafted in IF they believe). Naturally, Messianic Jews are part of the tree, while Gentile Jews are being grafted on to the tree. If Jews are noted as being broken off for disbelief, it follows that non-believers are not being grafted in while in disbelief.

Regards

 

[Drew]

The Gentiles are not being grafted into Christ, but into a Covenant relationship...such as the nation of Israel had where some believed and some didn't. Those who don't believe will be cut off.

This argument cannot ultimately work and in fact I suggest that, from Paul's point of view, there is no distinction whatseover between being a member of the "covenant family" and being a person who has faith in Jesus.

In Romans 4, Paul goes to great lengths to identify the "true covenant" people - they are those who believe in God and are justified thereby. So, from the perspective of Paul anyway, there is clearly no sense in talking about "being in a covenant relationship" as if it were something other than being a believer in Christ.

And there is more evidence for this. In Romans 10, Paul clearly maps faith in Christ directly onto covenant membership - this side of the cross, they mean exactly the same thing.

 

[glorydaz]

He most certainly is speaking to Gentile believers in the material at issue - there is no doubt of this. Again, you simply ignore the clear content of the text and / or are concerned with another section of the chapter. The following text demonstrates beyond any doubt that Paul indeed has something to say to Gentile believers:

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry......

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

I guarantee you that no Biblical scholar will dispute the fact that the "natural branches" refers to Jews and the the "you" here refers to Gentiles.

It is time to take the text seriously - even though Paul does say a lot of things in chapter 11, one of the things on his mind is a warning, directed specifically at the Gentile believer, raising the possiblity of their ultimate loss.

You continue to assume the Gentiles are believers, and continue to ignore how and why the Gentiles found favor with God when the children of Israel were the favored ones up until a particular time. There are prophesies throughout the OT concerning when God would turn to the Gentiles...offering them the LIGHT that had been reserved for the COI in times past. The olive tree was Israel and their covenant, was it not? Composed of both regenerate and unregenerate people? For some reason, you've decided to jump to the conclusion that "Gentiles" is only referring to believers instead of referring to all nations who were NOT ISRAEL. Gentiles have always been the "unbelievers".

Here we see the light being shown...the Gospel (forgiveness of sins) being preached...to "men and brethren".

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

Here we see Gentiles "seeking" the light.

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Here, the Jews are filled with envy...the very reason Paul points out in Romans 11.

But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

Now the Gentiles (all non-Jews) are offered salvation...all reconciled. They are glad, but not all go on to be justified by faith. But Gentiles (unbelievers) now have the same access to the promises the Children of Israel have exclusively possessed. Were all people in the nation of Israel justified by faith? No. Are all Gentiles justified by faith? No.

For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

This is the grafting in that Paul speaks of in Romans 11. The door of faith has been opened to the Gentiles...not just the believing Gentiles, but all Gentiles.

And when they were come, and had gathered the church together, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and how he had opened the door of faith unto the Gentiles.

 

[Drew]

You continue to assume the Gentiles are believers,.....

Please do not insult the intelligence of the reader, glorydaz. The text clearly shows that Paul is indeed addressing Gentile believers. Why do you deny this? Here is the relevant bit:

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (U)I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might (V)move to jealousy (W)my fellow countrymen and (X)save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the (Y)reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (Z)life from the dead? 16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19(AE)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;

How can we have a serioius discussion about this if you do not accept what Paul says - Paul is clearly speaking to Gentiles (verse 13) and he clearly believes them to be in a position of standing by faith. Who stands by faith except a believer?

 

[Alabaster]

Amen, Farouk. We also have Christ's intercessory prayers, "saved to the uttermost", keeping us through His Power, preserving us for ultimate glory, and being "bought with a price". We can't forget the promises of God when we come across certain verses that might not be as easy to understand.

That is correct! People who think that our salvation and our standing with God as righteous and holy is so flimsy need to take a faith pill.

 

[Drew]

That is correct! People who think that our salvation and our standing with God as righteous and holy is so flimsy need to take a faith pill.

And you (and others) need to take heed of what Paul actually writes and pay less attention to your tradition.

This is really quite a remarkable thread. We have a text - Roman 11 - where Paul clearly addresses Gentile believers and warns them about possibly being "cut off" from the true family of God.

Yet despite this clear and unambiguous warning, you and glorydaz seem to be willing to dismiss Paul's warning and cling to the position that a believer cannot be lost. It may be comforting to believe this, but I see no way to defend such a position scripturally.

 

[Drew]

For some reason, you've decided to jump to the conclusion that "Gentiles" is only referring to believers instead of referring to all nations who were NOT ISRAEL.

The reason for my position is simple - Paul makes it clear that his warning about ultimate loss is specifically addressed to Gentile believers. Here is the text again - I will not tire of re-posting it since it clearly shows that Paul is warning Gentile believers about the possibility of final loss:

13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (U)I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might (V)move to jealousy (W)my fellow countrymen and (X)save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the (Y)reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (Z)life from the dead? 16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19(AE)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear;

Who "stands in faith", glorydaz? All Gentiles - believer and non-believer alike.

Clearly the answer is that Paul is addressing Gentile believers. It is only the believer who stands in faith.

 

[Alabaster]

Who "stands in faith", glorydaz? All Gentiles - believer and non-believer alike.

Better read it again.

 

[francisdesales]

Better read it again.

I think Drew's last line of rhetorical questioning is a bit confusing, but he clarifies with his last sentence correctly.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

I think Drew's last line of rhetorical questioning is a bit confusing, but he clarifies with his last sentence correctly.

Regards

Ahhh, thank you, francis. ;)

 

[Drew]

Deleted own post

 

[Elijah674]

And you (and others) need to take heed of what Paul actually writes and pay less attention to your tradition.

This is really quite a remarkable thread. We have a text - Roman 11 - where Paul clearly addresses Gentile believers and warns them about possibly being "cut off" from the true family of God.

Yet despite this clear and unambiguous warning, you and glorydaz seem to be willing to dismiss Paul's warning and cling to the position that a believer cannot be lost. It may be comforting to believe this, but I see no way to defend such a position scripturally.

When any person or whole 'church fold' make a DECISION against Rom. 8:14 of being Led OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, it is not long before they NO longer can hardly be moved! And this is especially True with any who had actually started out well in John 3:3.

--Elijah

 

[Jacob D.]

I think its possible to sin when you're saved. Salvation isn't permanent, the saved are still human and we are capable of undoing our own salvation with our actions and our sins. That's why the Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. We have to ask for forgiveness daily, because we sin daily, saved or not. The saved can become unsaved, that's what apostate is. But even that isn't permanent. God can fix anything or anyone no matter how many times they become broken.

 

[Alabaster]

I think its possible to sin when you're saved. Salvation isn't permanent, the saved are still human and we are capable of undoing our own salvation with our actions and our sins. That's why the Bible tells us to pray without ceasing. We have to ask for forgiveness daily, because we sin daily, saved or not. The saved can become unsaved, that's what apostate is. But even that isn't permanent. God can fix anything or anyone no matter how many times they become broken.

Salvation is permanent. If we walk away from that wonderful knowledge of God in Jesus Christ, then we were never truly converted in the first place.

Apostate people have had serious issues with God from the beginning, as we are asked to surrender ourselves to the Holy Spirit, to be filled up to overflowing. These people have never done that. They have usually been those who give a mental assent to Jesus, but have not allowed Him entrance into theirs lives and hearts. They are apostatic to their former belief, but have never known Jesus Christ as Lord.

A Spirit-filled and Spirit-led Christian doesn't necessarily sin every day.

 

[Drew]

Salvation is permanent. If we walk away from that wonderful knowledge of God in Jesus Christ, then we were never truly converted in the first place.

Biblical evidence please. And if you find some, then we have an inconsistency in the Scriptures because, as you have already been shown, the following text is clearly directed at Gentile believers (note the reference to "standing in faith") being warned about the possibility of being removed from the family of God. You have not yet seriously engaged this text. And no wonder - it is manifestly clear that this text raises the possibilility of a believer falling away:

But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as (U)I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might (V)move to jealousy (W)my fellow countrymen and (X)save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the (Y)reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but (Z)life from the dead? 16If the (AA)first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. 17But if some of the (AB)branches were broken off, and (AC)you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that (AD)it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19(AE)You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you (AF)stand by your faith (AG)Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

How is this not a slam-dunk against "one saved always saved"? What position is his Gentile audience in? They, yes, stand by faith. So they are clearly believers. And what does Paul say to them? He warns them that the possibility exists that they will removed from the family of God.

Now please - deal with this particular text and tell us how your position still work.