Sinful awful people by the WORLD's standard. Where do you fit?

[AlexBC]

First off, even the kindest, most law abiding person on earth is still, by nature, condemned as a sinner. Secondly, not believing there is a God will invariably manifest itself in wrong doing. The wrong doing then being that which condemns a person.



If only it were just about doing good, or doing your best. The problem lies in the fact that humans are by nature not righteous. It's in our nature to do wrong. That is why we can not dwell in heaven. We are unholy and unrighteous. We don't belong there. That's why one must be 'born anew', or 'from above' by the Spirit of God to enter into the kingdom.



Not in regard to salvation because salvation is not on the merit of doing good things, or doing good in God's name. Salvation is an amnesty program for all those who can honestly admit that, by nature, they are enslaved to wrong doing and are utterly guilty and without hope before God. They are the one's God extends the invitation to be freely pardoned of their guilt and accepted by God. Obviously, those who can't, or won't, do that, can't come home without threat of prosecution for their misdeeds.

What wrong doing manifests in not believing in a god? Can you provide an example? Going back to Japan, look at how well the society functions for such a non secular country.

Bad choices don't hinge on whether or not we have a belief in God.

I'm pretty insulted that God would judge us as all inherently born with sin. What does that even mean? We make bad choices, we make good choices we sometimes try to negate the bad choices we made.

 

[AlexBC]

I admit I don't know the context of this rebuttal, but if I'm guessing correctly what that context is I will say Paul tells us God makes provision for those who are isolated from the knowledge of the gospel. They will be judged according to their own standard of right/ wrong.

Sound silly? Not really. I was amazed at how many unbelievers don't even follow their own standard and opinion of what is right and wrong.

So, effectively, following the religion, going to Church is a waste of time because there's a provision for non believers.

Might as well sleep in on a Sunday and skip church.

 

[Free]

But it's not just be a good person and avoid hell. You could be the kindest, most law abiding person on Earth but if you sImply say "I don't think that God person exists" then you burn.

What do you mean by "good"? You have nothing by which you can even say something is "good" or something is "evil."

This is a significant problem with such arguments. You are presuming a Judeo-Christian worldview to make your argument against that same worldview.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What wrong doing manifests in not believing in a god? Can you provide an example?

Various behaviors and attitudes that hurts other people in the interest of guarding and preserving self--things like "hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness..." (Galatians 5:20-21 NIV1984).

Without any sense of accountability to God what reason does a person have to not do that hurtful or illegal thing to someone else that no one will find out about?

I'm pretty insulted that God would judge us as all inherently born with sin.

Not born with sin. Born with the proclivity to sin. That proclivity lies in the Adamic nature we inherited from Adam. But in Christ we can be 'born again' and grow up into a new nature--one characterized by it's proclivity to pursue righteousness.

What does that even mean?

It means by nature we are rebellious and self-centered. A rebellion and self-centeredness that eventually leads us into sin and into the bondage of that sin.

We make bad choices, we make good choices we sometimes try to negate the bad choices we made.

What does that mean 'negate the bad choices'?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, effectively, following the religion, going to Church is a waste of time because there's a provision for non believers.

Might as well sleep in on a Sunday and skip church.

No, lol. That provision is for the person who had never heard about the Law of Moses or the gospel of Christ. Which is almost no one in this modern age.

I have to tell this to everyone who thinks this may apply to them. It usually comes up because someone I'm witnessing to asks the question, "what about isolated tribes of natives who have never heard about Jesus?" God does have a way to judge them fairly. It just doesn't apply to the multitudes who have heard about Jesus and the gospel (and are asking that question).

 

[Christ_empowered]

Not Catholic here, but I think The Church allows for the salvation of those who, for good reason (psychological/psychiatric, geographical, etc.), are outside of any The Church but who still follow the promptings of The Holy Spirit in their lives. Not a Protestant answer, of course, but Catholics do represent I think over 1 billion people. So no, simple geography doesn't send one to Hell...according to some.

My own upbring was Presbyterian. The Presbie answer would probably be this: God saves whom He will, when He will, in the manner He wills. So, if you're not saved...God didn't choose you. Many are saved, some are left to their own devices (which end in damnation, of course).

2 answers. I"m leaning towards the Catholic one myself.

 

[AlexBC]

No, lol. That provision is for the person who had never heard about the Law of Moses or the gospel of Christ. Which is almost no one in this modern age.

I have to tell this to everyone who thinks this may apply to them. It usually comes up because someone I'm witnessing to asks the question, "what about isolated tribes of natives who have never heard about Jesus?" God does have a way to judge them fairly. It just doesn't apply to the multitudes who have heard about Jesus and the gospel (and are asking that question).

So, you're basically saying that the 99% of the Japanese population in Japan are going to Hell as have all of their ancestors.

In fact, everyone who was following another religion, Hindus, Buddhists etc are all going to Hell.

Even if you provided me proof that God existed, i'd deny him. That's just sick. Why would nayone follow a god who would do that?

This is the kind of crap that made me turn my back on the religion.

 

[AlexBC]

What do you mean by "good"? You have nothing by which you can even say something is "good" or something is "evil."

This is a significant problem with such arguments. You are presuming a Judeo-Christian worldview to make your argument against that same worldview.

Yes, we do. The concepts of Good and Evil vary from culture to culture. These concepts also change over time. But the basic principles of our biology help shape our laws.

I dislike certain things to happen to me. There are like minded people who share the same opinion. Those like minded people come together, form laws, governments to preserve the kind of life that they enjoy.

And again, we have a thing called Empathy. I don't hit, kill rape someone because I have a theory of mind. I understand the consequences of that action and how they would affect me.

We have tons by which we can measure Good and Evil which are just labels anyway.

 

[jasoncran]

Yes, we do. The concepts of Good and Evil vary from culture to culture. These concepts also change over time. But the basic principles of our biology help shape our laws.

I dislike certain things to happen to me. There are like minded people who share the same opinion. Those like minded people come together, form laws, governments to preserve the kind of life that they enjoy.

And again, we have a thing called Empathy. I don't hit, kill rape someone because I have a theory of mind. I understand the consequences of that action and how they would affect me.

We have tons by which we can measure Good and Evil which are just labels anyway.

so why are islamic countries then bad? wow, and some dont have moral compass. nope none at all.

yes but the other like minded who dont share that opinion of yours may disagree. i will later add the caveat of what the army has said on this stuff.

 

[Atothetheist]

so why are islamic countries then bad? wow, and some dont have moral compass. nope none at all.

yes but the other like minded who dont share that opinion of yours may disagree. i will later add the caveat of what the army has said on this stuff.

Maybe because they violate basic human rights?

I would argue that because the islamists don't see what they are doing as wrong would defeat "Moral Objectives" in the sense of coming from God.

There is scientific evidence of evolution producing them, and methods to test it o be so.

Did you know Chimps, Gorillas, Dogs, Cats, show concern over fellow species?

Did you also know that Bats have a trading system? And in order to survive, you have to be fair. Fairness is a moral trait.

This is even more evidence it came from genes and natural selection.

Culture and Society has a huge sway on morals, which is why the Islamists DON'T think what they are doing is wrong.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So, you're basically saying that the 99% of the Japanese population in Japan are going to Hell as have all of their ancestors.

In fact, everyone who was following another religion, Hindus, Buddhists etc are all going to Hell.

How did you get 99% out of what I said?

Even if you provided me proof that God existed, i'd deny him. That's just sick. Why would nayone follow a god who would do that?

This is the kind of crap that made me turn my back on the religion.

You probably need to get properly educated about Christianity before you make a decision about Christ based on this subject. The thing you really need to address, though, is the matter of guilt.

I consistently see that those who reject the faith and make a conscious decision to be an atheist or an agnostic, or change the Christian religion, can't accept that they are unrighteous before God. It seems to not be about unreasonable facts, or unscientific things, etc. that they say is why they can't believe. It's this matter of guilt they can't accept. It's a peculiar things. But that's what one has to do before they can receive the forgiveness of God and be saved. Who can be forgiven who can't even acknowledge that they've done wrong?

 

[AlexBC]

How did you get 99% out of what I said?

Well, just generalizing since modern Japan is 1% Christian and the rest is not.


You probably need to get properly educated about Christianity before you make a decision about Christ based on this subject. The thing you really need to address, though, is the matter of guilt.

I consistently see that those who reject the faith and make a conscious decision to be an atheist or an agnostic, or change the Christian religion, can't accept that they are unrighteous before God. It seems to not be about unreasonable facts, or unscientific things, etc. that they say is why they can't believe. It's this matter of guilt they can't accept. It's a peculiar things. But that's what one has to do before they can receive the forgiveness of God and be saved. Who can be forgiven who can't even acknowledge that they've done wrong?

If i'm an atheist it means I do not believe claims that a god exists. If I don't believe he exists then I don't believe in the whole "unrighteous before God" thing. It's not a way to evade some truth about myself I don't want to acknowledge.

I freely admit i've made bad choices and made my fair share of mistakes. Fortunately, i've been wise enough to try to make good choices and lead a fairly moral life. :waving

 

[Grazer]

If i'm an atheist it means I do not believe claims that a god exists. If I don't believe he exists then I don't believe in the whole "unrighteous before God" thing. It's not a way to evade some truth about myself I don't want to acknowledge.

I freely admit i've made bad choices and made my fair share of mistakes. Fortunately, i've been wise enough to try to make good choices and lead a fairly moral life. :waving

Can I ask by what or whos standard you are using to conclude you've made some bad choices, good choices and you live a fairly moral life?

 

[AlexBC]

Can I ask by what or whos standard you are using to conclude you've made some bad choices, good choices and you live a fairly moral life?

Big question. It's not really one source, one person. I usually try to follow the rules and laws of the country I live in first. I live in Japan now so I follow slightly different rules than I do back home.

On a more personal level, I try not to do things to people I would dislike. I try to help other people (which can sometimes benefit me) and it makes me feel good to do good for other people.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I freely admit i've made bad choices and made my fair share of mistakes. Fortunately, i've been wise enough to try to make good choices and lead a fairly moral life. :waving

Right. What you probably reject is the suggestion that you are fundamentally bad.

Avowed agnostics and atheists don't have a problem admitting wrong doing. It seems they can't bring themselves to acknowledge that by nature they are bad and unfit for the kingdom of God.

The other peculiarity of this is, they say they can amend for the wrong that they can admit.

 

[evenifigoalone]

I would argue that because the islamists don't see what they are doing as wrong would defeat "Moral Objectives" in the sense of coming from God.

There is scientific evidence of evolution producing them, and methods to test it o be so.

Did you know Chimps, Gorillas, Dogs, Cats, show concern over fellow species?

Did you also know that Bats have a trading system? And in order to survive, you have to be fair. Fairness is a moral trait.

This is even more evidence it came from genes and natural selection.

Fascinating stuff, isn't it?

Who is not to say that it was God who put the knowledge of morals there in our genes, though? This actually fits the Christian belief that God's law is written in our hearts.

 

[AlexBC]

"Right. What you probably reject is the suggestion that you are fundamentally bad.

Avowed agnostics and atheists don't have a problem admitting wrong doing. It seems they can't bring themselves to acknowledge that by nature they are bad and unfit for the kingdom of God. "

You mean Atheists and agnostics specifically are bad and unfit or we, like everyone else, are bad and unfit? And that refusal would only make sense if they even believed in God, which they don't. That's kind of the point.

"The other peculiarity of this is, they say they can amend for the wrong that they can admit."

It's taking responsibility for one's actions.

 

[AlexBC]

Fascinating stuff, isn't it?

Who is not to say that it was God who put the knowledge of morals there in our genes, though? This actually fits the Christian belief that God's law is written in our hearts.

Which raises the question, if it IS written in our hearts then why are there people who kill, rape, murder and act generally unpleasant to one another. Was God's pen running out on those days?

Would it not be an innate sense of what is right and wrong? And in that case, why do we then not follow or have an innate sense of other laws of God which are incompatible with our modern values?

 

[evenifigoalone]

Which raises the question, if it IS written in our hearts then why are there people who kill, rape, murder and act generally unpleasant to one another. Was God's pen running out on those days?

Would it not be an innate sense of what is right and wrong? And in that case, why do we then not follow or have an innate sense of other laws of God which are incompatible with our modern values?

Because people have the freedom to choose what their actions are. And human nature has also been corrupted--we may have a sense of morals, but we also have a tendency to disobey them.

 

[AlexBC]

Because people have the freedom to choose what their actions are. And human nature has also been corrupted--we may have a sense of morals, but we also have an inclination to disobey them.

Why an I only NOW noticing your avatar is Sonic!?:eeeekkk

Uh, back to the topic. Sorry.

So, what corrupts human nature?