Sinless Mary? Another Roman Catholic myth...

[Heidi]

And by the way, your example in Samuel says; "And Michel daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death." That means she had no children at all.

So again, your attempt to twist scripture borders on the bizarre because Samuel 6:23 did not say "until". So you need to look up basic word definitions before you can understand scripture. One cannot have children after one dies so your interpretation of Samuel is wrong. But Mary and Joseph did have sex after Christ was born as Matthew says and their children bear out. So I will no longer argue with someone who changes words in the bible into bizarre interpretations that contradict scripture.

Uh, Heidi, it just depends on translation. The KJV says "unto". And "until" is a valid translation of the Hebrew "ad" (which is the word used in 2 Sam 6:23).

But "to" and "until" generally evoke the same idea.

"to the day she died", "until the day she died"
"to the end of the age", "until the end of the age"
etc.


I know it means she had no children at all. THAT was my point. "to/until/unto the day of her death" does not mean, "and then it happened". The Hebrew "ad" is basically the same as the Greek word "heos" used in Matthew 1:25.



You still have yet to address where Jesus' siblings where when He was 12? Why are only Mary, Joseph, and Jesus listed in the Scriptures as traveling to the Temple?

No, until is not a valid translation. It has a different meaning, catholic. Unto means to. Until means a limited time. So again, you are changing the words in the bible to mean a totally different thing which then makes Mary a rotten wife and mother of Jospesph's children.

I have addressed that point. I said that scripture wasn't concerned with what Christ's siblings were doing when Jesus spoke at the temple any more than it was concerned with what Mary & Joseph's friends and neighbors were doing at that time. So there was no need to bring it up.

So since you have no capacity to see the pope's fallibility, then I have no more wish to hear you butcher scripture because it doesn't agree with your god. This conversation is therefore, over.

 

[CatholicXian]

Heidi... have you taken a course in Hebrew or Greek? (or even checked out a book on Hebrew/Greek?)... got a concordance? even Strong's numbers?

"ad" and "heos" are two words which can be validly translated as "until"... look it up. I am not just making it up.


Regardless, however, if you want to take out the word "until", fine. It doesn't change the point. "Until" does not always mean "and then it happened".

Matthew 18:22 "Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven." (the same Greek word, "heos" is used here). In this passage then, Heidi, is Jesus telling us to keep track of exactly how many times we forgive someone-- and when we've forgiven them 77 times, we don't forgive them anymore? Of course not.

You are claiming an absolutist sense of the word "heos" which is not the true meaning of the term. There is another Greek word that also means "until" ("achi") and it is that Greek term that implies time (i.e., "and then it happened"). Yet that is not the word used in Matthew's Gospel, "heos" is the word the Holy Spirit inspired the author to write. I am not the one twisting the Scriptures, Heidi.

I said that scripture wasn't concerned with what Christ's siblings were doing when Jesus spoke at the temple any more than it was concerned with what Mary & Joseph's friends and neighbors were doing at that time. So there was no need to bring it up.

Surely Jesus' supposed siblings are more relevant than friends and neighbors. Why then mention Mary and Joseph at all? Or why Joseph? He doesn't speak in the passage. Also, why does the passage only speak of Jesus "parents"? Why not "family" or "parents and siblings"? Surely if Jesus had siblings at this point in time they would have went with Mary and Joseph to the temple, as a family and they would've been mentioned in the Gospel passage.

 

[JM]

This topic is a great example of how the Catholic Church "T"radition has superseded and nullified the word of God. The Bible makes it plain, all have sinned, Mary was a sinner just like you and I.

Peace.

But again, "all have sinned" is a hyperbole. Jesus did not sin and Jesus is also true man.

I'm also pretty sure that the Gospel writers knew basic grammar enough that they wouldn't accidently put a perfect participle in a sentence if they didn't mean it. (i.e., Luke 1:28).

Show me how it's hyperbole? If that's true, why don't you apply the same "rule" to understanding the atonement? TRADITION! That's how.

 

[Heidi]

This topic is a great example of how the Catholic Church "T"radition has superseded and nullified the word of God. The Bible makes it plain, all have sinned, Mary was a sinner just like you and I.

Peace.

But again, "all have sinned" is a hyperbole. Jesus did not sin and Jesus is also true man.

I'm also pretty sure that the Gospel writers knew basic grammar enough that they wouldn't accidently put a perfect participle in a sentence if they didn't mean it. (i.e., Luke 1:28).

Show me how it's hyperbole? If that's true, why don't you apply the same "rule" to understanding the atonement? TRADITION! That's how.

There's no point in arguing with her, catholic. She doesn't know that "until" is used in the context of the phrase. In Matthew 1:25, the bible makes it quite clear that Joseph & Mary didn't have sexual relations until after Christ was born. "Until" in that phrase means exactly what it says. The phrase didn't say that Joseph and Mary never had sex, or it would have said so.

She also doesn't understand that Christ's siblings had no relevance to the passage because they weren't involved in Jesus's teaching at the temple. But Mary & Jospeh did indeed have relevance to that passage because they noticed that Jesus wasn't with them. But you cannot argue with people who have no clue what the bible means. They''s make up whatever itching ears want to hear. I feel sorry for her. She looks quite desperate.

 

[Heidi]

Actually a marriage that is never consummated is grounds for annulment in the catholic church because it's considered cruel and unusual punishment. So according to the catholics, Mary was a rotten wife. So they not only contradict the bible, they contradict themselves! ;-)

 

[CatholicXian]

Actually a marriage that is never consummated is grounds for annulment in the catholic church because it's considered cruel and unusual punishment. So according to the catholics, Mary was a rotten wife. So they not only contradict the bible, they contradict themselves! ;-)

Proof?

Documents, encyclicals, canons, anything?



Since you feel so sorry for me, Heidi, I hope you're praying for me. As a college kid, I can use all the prayers I can get! ;-)
I'm praying for you and the other members of this forum.

 

[Klee shay]

Only got to page 8 before a question came to mind?

For those who believe in praying to Mary; can I ask why you don't trust the Lord Jesus enough to go straight to the source with the power to answer all prayers?

Will Jesus listen to Mary on your behalf but not you directly?

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand the need to worship someone who may have been the mother of Jesus, when you can go straight to Jesus Himself.

I too respect what the Apostles did for the message of the Lord, but I don't pray to them or seek their intervention on my part when I know full well I can go straight to the Lord myself and he will hear and answer my prayers.

On a sidenote - do you think Mary would want us to worship/respect her when she witnessed what her Son gave up? Do you think she would want any gratitude for herself? She watched her innocent Son whom she loved from birth, crucified on the cross for all of mankind's salvation...she saw him slowly tortured...every painful second she waited nearby for his suffering to end...and you waste your prayers/respect on her?

If I had to give up a perfect child for the rest of the world, I would want to slip away into obscurity so that my child's sacrifice would never for one second be in vain. Why would a mother want to take the credit for what their child gave up to save the world? I would feel nothing but disgrace for those who would look past His sacrifice to see me. If they could not see what my child gave up for them, why would I want anything to do with them?

Just a personal perspective from a mother and woman.

 

[Heidi]

Actually a marriage that is never consummated is grounds for annulment in the catholic church because it's considered cruel and unusual punishment. So according to the catholics, Mary was a rotten wife. So they not only contradict the bible, they contradict themselves! ;-)

Proof?

Documents, encyclicals, canons, anything?



Since you feel so sorry for me, Heidi, I hope you're praying for me. As a college kid, I can use all the prayers I can get! ;-)
I'm praying for you and the other members of this forum.

You need to become familiar with the catechism of the catholic church. So I suggest you look that one up. Lack of consummation has been recognized as gorunds for annulment for a long time in the catholic church. And if it no longer is, then I guess their doctrine isn't infallible, is it? ;-)

I was fortunate that I didn't go to church as a child. So when I accepted Christ, I used the bible as my source of knowledge about Christianity and believed every word of it. So I hadn't been brainwashed by any denomination.

Then after I read the bible, I started going to the different churches and I was shocked to see how many denominations didn't agree with the bible! They cannot all be right because they all disagree with each other. So I decided to only believe the bible as the Word of God which Jesus & Paul tell us to do. I now go to an E-free church whose only doctrine is that we be born again of the Holy Spirit which the bible teaches.

So, never put your faith in a pastor as having the absolute truth because all pastors including the pope are fallible human beings. Only follow Christ and you will know which teachings are true and which are false. So I will continue to pray for you.

 

[CatholicXian]

Only got to page 8 before a question came to mind?

For those who believe in praying to Mary; can I ask why you don't trust the Lord Jesus enough to go straight to the source with the power to answer all prayers?

Oh, it has absolutely nothing to do with not trusting Christ. If I didn't trust Christ, then I wouldn't pray at all. My prayers, no matter to whom they are dircted are only efficacious in and through Jesus Christ. I trust Christ completely, and that is why I pray, period.

Will Jesus listen to Mary on your behalf but not you directly?

Jesus listens to me directly... I pray to Christ all the time (look at the phrase/mini-prayer in my signature, it's one of my favorite prayers).

As to Jesus listening to Mary on my behalf... yes, of course. Jesus is the Great High King. In the OT, the Queen was not the wife of the King (for a king could have many wives), but the mother of the King. Thus, as a Catholic, I believe Mary also to be the Queen of Heaven (in and through, and under a great grace of Jesus Christ).

1 Kings 2:13-20 "And Adonijah the son of Haggith came to Bathsheba the mother of Solomon. And she said, Comest thou peaceably? And he said, Peaceably. (14) He said moreover, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And she said, Say on. (15) And he said, Thou knowest that the kingdom was mine, and that all Israel set their faces on me, that I should reign: howbeit the kingdom is turned about, and is become my brother's: for it was his from the LORD. (16) And now I ask one petition of thee, deny me not. And she said unto him, Say on. (17) And he said, Speak, I pray thee, unto Solomon the king, (for he will not say thee nay,) that he give me Abishag the Shunammite to wife. (18) And Bathsheba said, Well; I will speak for thee unto the king. (19) Bathsheba therefore went unto king Solomon, to speak unto him for Adonijah. And the king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself unto her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a seat to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand. (20) Then she said, I desire one small petition of thee; I pray thee, say me not nay. And the king said unto her, Ask on, my mother: for I will not say thee nay."

Sorry, I'm just trying to understand the need to worship someone who may have been the mother of Jesus, when you can go straight to Jesus Himself.

I too respect what the Apostles did for the message of the Lord, but I don't pray to them or seek their intervention on my part when I know full well I can go straight to the Lord myself and he will hear and answer my prayers.

We do not venerate and honor Mary and the other Saints in Heaven to the exclusion of Christ. On the contrary, my veneration of the them leads to Christ all the more when I see the great grace He has bestowed on others who trusted in Him.

Prayer does not make up merely one act out of my day. I am constantly praying throughout the day, and which each prayer, whether it be to Christ or His mother, I still remember and recognize Christ as the power and grace behind each prayer I have to offer.

On a sidenote - do you think Mary would want us to worship/respect her when she witnessed what her Son gave up? Do you think she would want any gratitude for herself? She watched her innocent Son whom she loved from birth, crucified on the cross for all of mankind's salvation...she saw him slowly tortured...every painful second she waited nearby for his suffering to end...and you waste your prayers/respect on her?

If I had to give up a perfect child for the rest of the world, I would want to slip away into obscurity so that my child's sacrifice would never for one second be in vain. Why would a mother want to take the credit for what their child gave up to save the world? I would feel nothing but disgrace for those who would look past His sacrifice to see me. If they could not see what my child gave up for them, why would I want anything to do with them?

Just a personal perspective from a mother and woman.

"wasting" prayers is your term (which I would object to... no prayer is a "waste" whether in vain or not-- at least they are turning to God (directly or indirectly through His Saints in Heaven) and God is the One who can change their hearts).

Now, as to Mary's thoughts... Mary desires all to know Christ. That is Mary's point and purpose-- to point to Christ. Her last words to us in Scripture are "do whatever He tells you" (cf. John 2:5). If I had to wager a guess, I'd say Mary is amazed at the great grace God has bestowed upon her to allow her to point any and all to her Son and His Redeeming Sacrifice. And His great suffering on the cross of calvary only makes that grace all the more wonderous and great.


Perspectives...

 

[CatholicXian]

Actually a marriage that is never consummated is grounds for annulment in the catholic church because it's considered cruel and unusual punishment. So according to the catholics, Mary was a rotten wife. So they not only contradict the bible, they contradict themselves! ;-)

Proof?

Documents, encyclicals, canons, anything?



Since you feel so sorry for me, Heidi, I hope you're praying for me. As a college kid, I can use all the prayers I can get! ;-)
I'm praying for you and the other members of this forum.

You need to become familiar with the catechism of the catholic church. So I suggest you look that one up. Lack of consummation has been recognized as gorunds for annulment for a long time in the catholic church. And if it no longer is, then I guess their doctrine isn't infallible, is it? ;-)

I was fortunate that I didn't go to church as a child. So when I accepted Christ, I used the bible as my source of knowledge about Christianity and believed every word of it. So I hadn't been brainwashed by any denomination.

Then after I read the bible, I started going to the different churches and I was shocked to see how many denominations didn't agree with the bible! They cannot all be right because they all disagree with each other. So I decided to only believe the bible as the Word of God which Jesus & Paul tell us to do. I now go to an E-free church whose only doctrine is that we be born again of the Holy Spirit which the bible teaches.

So, never put your faith in a pastor as having the absolute truth because all pastors including the pope are fallible human beings. Only follow Christ and you will know which teachings are true and which are false. So I will continue to pray for you.

I am familiar with the Catechism, Heidi. That's not in there anywhere. So I ask again... where does Catholicism espouse such an idea that "not consummating a marriage is cruel and unusual punishment"?


Thanks for the prayers, they are reciprocated on this end.

 

[Heidi]

Actually a marriage that is never consummated is grounds for annulment in the catholic church because it's considered cruel and unusual punishment. So according to the catholics, Mary was a rotten wife. So they not only contradict the bible, they contradict themselves! ;-)

Proof?

Documents, encyclicals, canons, anything?



Since you feel so sorry for me, Heidi, I hope you're praying for me. As a college kid, I can use all the prayers I can get! ;-)
I'm praying for you and the other members of this forum.

You need to become familiar with the catechism of the catholic church. So I suggest you look that one up. Lack of consummation has been recognized as gorunds for annulment for a long time in the catholic church. And if it no longer is, then I guess their doctrine isn't infallible, is it? ;-)

I was fortunate that I didn't go to church as a child. So when I accepted Christ, I used the bible as my source of knowledge about Christianity and believed every word of it. So I hadn't been brainwashed by any denomination.

Then after I read the bible, I started going to the different churches and I was shocked to see how many denominations didn't agree with the bible! They cannot all be right because they all disagree with each other. So I decided to only believe the bible as the Word of God which Jesus & Paul tell us to do. I now go to an E-free church whose only doctrine is that we be born again of the Holy Spirit which the bible teaches.

So, never put your faith in a pastor as having the absolute truth because all pastors including the pope are fallible human beings. Only follow Christ and you will know which teachings are true and which are false. So I will continue to pray for you.

I am familiar with the Catechism, Heidi. That's not in there anywhere. So I ask again... where does Catholicism espouse such an idea that "not consummating a marriage is cruel and unusual punishment"?


Thanks for the prayers, they are reciprocated on this end.

I just read it online althought I didn't write down the site. So if you're really interested in the truth, then you need to do the research yourself. I'm 55 years old and when I was a young girl, this was common practice in the catholic church. The bible is very celar about not denying spouses sex because Paul says our bodies do not belong to ourselves alone in marriage, but also to our spouse.

So again, not only has the catholic church disagreed with the bible on sex between Jospeh and Mary and in the process said that Christ's siblings were really not his siblings, but they have made Mary out to contradict Paul on denying sex with her husband.

There is no place in scripture that says that Mary was a virgin all of her life and that Mary and jospeh mutually decided not to have sex with each other. That's all made-up. Once again,you need to, as Jesus says, see Jesus as your one teacher instead of worshiping fallible human beings as having the truth. If you don't, then you are disobeying Christ again and in danger of eventually being deceived by the anti-Christ who, like the pope, will sit in the holy of holies and declare himself to be God. Anyone who takes a title for himself that Jesus says should be resevred for God alone is setting himself up as God. As jesus says; "He who exalts himself will be humbled." And that is not a lie.

 

[Heidi]

Actually, I just found a site; http://www.religioustolerance.org where it lists the reasons for annulments and lack of consummation is one of them. I'm sure there are many more sites also. Paul tells husbands and wives to come together after awhile if they have mutually abdstained for devotion to God, so that they will not be unduly tempted by Satan.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Actually, were it not for the fact that most mainstream Christians believe that the righteous go immediately to heaven at death (a catholic doctrine?) we wouldn't even be debating this issue.

 

[Heidi]

Actually, were it not for the fact that most mainstream Christians believe that the righteous go immediately to heaven at death (a catholic doctrine?) we wouldn't even be debating this issue.

I agree with you. One has to first know what the bible means by righteous to begin with in order to know who goes to heaven. "There is not one righteous man, not one." Therefore, only the blood of christ can save us.

 

[gingercat]

Actually, were it not for the fact that most mainstream Christians believe that the righteous go immediately to heaven at death (a catholic doctrine?) we wouldn't even be debating this issue.

I agree with you. One has to first know what the bible means by righteous to begin with in order to know who goes to heaven. "There is not one righteous man, not one." Therefore, only the blood of christ can save us.

Heide,

You are missing Spute point.

I believe you believe the same way too. Do you believe we see Jesus as soon as we die?

 

[CatholicXian]

Actually, I just found a site; http://www.religioustolerance.org where it lists the reasons for annulments and lack of consummation is one of them. I'm sure there are many more sites also. Paul tells husbands and wives to come together after awhile if they have mutually abdstained for devotion to God, so that they will not be unduly tempted by Satan.

That's not a Catholic site. If it were truly Catholic dotrine it would be stated plain as day in an encyclical, Catechism reference, Canon Law, or Conciliar statement. Nonetheless, Heidi, I wasn't worried about what the grounds for annulments are (and just because one has grounds for an annulment, doesn't guarantee one... there are MANY other factors cited in Canon Law as pertain to annulments), but I was concerned by your remark that not consummating a marriage is considered "cruel and unusual punishment" in the Catholic Church. This not only blatantly false, it's completely ridiculous and absurd.

Furthermore, a valid marriage can exist without consummation. A valid marriage comes into being through the free consent of the will of both persons (who are not otherwise impeded to marry). It's in Canon Law.

Thus, in the eyes of the Catholic Church, Mary and Joseph, while refraining from consummation by mutual consent for the sake of Jesus, had a valid marriage.

And the whole "cruel and unusual punishment" bit is just made up nonsense.

 

[gingercat]

Catholic,

There are huge differnces between Catholics and Protestans, as far as the Bible facts.

Not both can be right. One of us are of evil, either Catholics or Protestants. Do you realize that?

 

[CatholicXian]

Catholic,

There are huge differnces between Catholics and Protestans, as far as the Bible facts.

Not both can be right. One of us are of evil, either Catholics or Protestants. Do you realize that?

One has to be evil?

I don't think Protestants are evil (not most of them anyway). I recognize them as fellow Christians and seekers of the Truth (the person of Christ). We may disagree on interpretation of the Sacred Scriptures (and that's fine, I pray the Holy Spirit will convict the hearts of those who read, as well as my own), but Catholics do use and find doctrine in the Sacred Scriptures.

And personally, on many issues, I find the Catholic pratice more in line with early Christian intentions than modern day interpretations... where are bishops and deacons? where are people gathering together to break bread & celebrate the Lord's supper? Many of these modern day churches seem to be more focused on their music than they are on their doctrine and faith.

 

[gingercat]

Catholic,

Have you ever considered or taken look at, honestly and openly, the Protestants' claim if they are telling the whole truth from beginning of the history of RC why so many faithful ones were martyered by them?

Don't you think they have changed the Bible and doctrine so they can continually practice their evil deeds?

 

[CatholicXian]

Catholic,

Have you ever considered or taken look at, honestly and openly, the Protestants' claim if they are telling the whole truth from beginning of the history of RC why so many faithful ones were martyered by them?

? I am not entirely sure to what you are referring?

Don't you think they have changed the Bible and doctrine so they can continually practice their evil deeds?

No. I don't see evil deeds being practiced as doctrine in the Catholic Church. Do people make mistakes in Church? Of course, we're all human. People make mistakes in every Church, regardless of Creed.

I read through the Scriptures and talked to many pastors/priests, etc. before I embraced Catholicism, and I continue to read through the Scriptures as often as I can. I don't see conflict in Scripture with my Catholic faith (or else I wouldn't be Catholic). When I teach my religious education class we use the Sacred Scriptures all the time-- we begin the class by re-reading the readings from that Sunday and talking about them, and whatever else we discuss of Catholic doctrine, I always bring in the Bible.

So no, I don't think the Bible has been changed by the Catholic Church, or is misinterpreted, etc.