One cannot be lost and be in the Kingdom of God
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
Sinless To Be Saved
- Thread starter jarde
- Start date
A text taken out of context, is a pretext.
GodsGrace
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Free, I'm sure you know how long it would take to go through the golden chain of redemption...
I really cannot do this.
Suffice it to say that ALL scripture must be harmonized,,,
all verses must be reconciled with all other verses.
If someone want to believe that forfeiture of salvation, or loss of salvation is NOT possible....
many verses will have to be ignored...this just cannot be done.
NOTHING can separate us from the love of God BUT OURSELVES.
I believe we have free will.
I believe we have the free will to abandon God if we so choose.
Jesus states that this is possible and Paul and all the writers.
Of course.
For as long as we want Him to...
otherwise there would be no IF's in the NT.
Sealed in Him...used to mean baptism.
Many who are baptized decide to abandon Christianity.
Also, the Holy §Spirit is a downpayment.
The fee must be paid to the end in order to receive the product.
Sure.
If you allow Him to.
I believe in free will.
God will not force us to be saved.
Absolutely.
Not talking about other members.
This conversation is sufficient to show that there's a problem with the Christian community.
It's NEW problem that did not exist in the early church.
Christianity cannot be changed...
it is what it is.
I'll repeat it again...no use for you to tell me I stated it.
We must believe AND OBEY in order to be saved.
AFTER salvation Free...
I've said this many times now.
Big difference.
Works DO NOT save anyone.
BELIEF IN GOD saves.
Faith saves.
AFTER salvation...BELIEVERS are required to OBEY GOD.
Not listing anymore verses.
I don't like to continue these debates for too long since we will only be repeating.
I've posted John 15:2....
you have not explained in satisfactority.
It is plain and easy to understand.
We could accept what Jesus taught..
or we could accept what man has been teaching recently.
I accept what Jesus taught.
GodsGrace
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As I said, if you want to call it works salvation, it's fine with me.
There was NO SUCH term in the early church.
Works were expected of Christians.
Some even went to their death for believing in Jesus.
As to a scale....
I don't see any talk of a scale in the NT.
Please explain what BELIEVE means....
this conversation would end...
and all conversations such as this one.
See,,,You state that you agree that we are to do good works....
but then you find a problem with it and call it "works salvation".
No mention of works in the verses you posted.
Mention of works in MANY other verses of Jesus' teachings.
Let's discuss John 15:2
Every branch IN ME (a saved person) that does NOT BEAR FRUIT...
will be cut away.
Seems very clear.
Now, maybe we need to erase Jesus' teachings from the NT so that there is no conflict.
OR
There is no conflict, but MAN is causing it.
By man, I mean modern-day teachings.
I just don't hear evidence being taught.
Jesus said to be a light so that our good works may be seen and glory given to God.
I stated that God doesn't require evidence.
OK
Then we better start behaving well and obeying !
Didn't hear any question that requires a reply.
I hear statements that do not make sense and which betray the questioner:
Statements about scales.
The limit of sins before one losses salvation.
Once a child always a child.
and so on....
I'd prefer to post verses except that this convo has gone on to long.
If you wish to discuss one particular verse,,,I'm willing.
Verse ping pong doesn't interest....
Let's hear your take on John 15:2
And I'll repeat it Free.
Your statements sound accusatory....
Here it is again:
Those that teach that behavior is not important are stating that a person could ACT however he wants to and still be saved.
Jesus said that those that DO NOT ACT on His words are fools.
I don't care for the "they were never saved to begin with" theory.
I don't find this in scripture...
If you do, please post some verses.
Jesus said a person could believe and then become lost.
Paul a person could fall away...
fall away from what?
Agreed.
So IF a believer goes back to being sexually immoral, an idolater, adulterer, etc.
he will be as a tax collector...he will go back to his vomit.
Again,,,God doesn't need evidence....
We obey because God DEMANDS obedience...
in the OC and in the NC.
GodsGrace
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Yes.
You can know you have eternal life right now...
IF
you do what Jesus taught.
Matthew 7:24
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matthew 7:26
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”
There are conditions to accepting the salvation Jesus offers to everyone.
He wants us to ACT on His words.
If we do NOT ACT on His words we're like the foolish man who built his house on sand...
the wind caused the house to FALL.
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The scripture plainly says the prodigal was dead and lost.
He was not physically dead.
He was spiritually dead.
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ Luke 15:32
Angels are sons of God.
Being a son of God doesn’t stop someone from being cast down to hell.
For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 2 Peter 2:4
Lucifer and one third of the angels are sons of God.
GodsGrace
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GodsGrace
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Right !
What if the sanctification process just ends?
What if a believer just doesn't want to obey God anymore - for whatever reason?
What would happen....?
Would the person still be saved or would they return to the condition they were in before salvation?
(IOW they'd be lost again).
- Apr 2, 2003
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What do you mean by "practice"?
Right before which he says:
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)
Verse 21 is saying that those who do the will of Father, are those whose profession of faith is true. Those who made a false profession and still did "many mighty works in [his] name," he never knew. His knowing us is based on putting our faith and trust in him, as evidenced by doing the will of the Father.
But, we know he says a lot more than just that.
I already did, and you quoted them, but I'll expand on them a bit:
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. (ESV)
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. (ESV)
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
...
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)
The NT is consistent in stating that living a life of habitual, willful sin, a life characterized by sin, can only be done by someone who isn't saved. Christians can sin, but because of the conviction of the Holy Spirit, will repent.
Of course, but since you continue to avoid simple questions, you're going to continue to make these sorts of arguments which don't address anything I have said.
I agree, but what you're saying implies that perfection is necessary. Of course, you could just answer those questions to clarify things.
Avoiding words of Scripture is the equal and opposite error. What John is certainly not saying is that simply doing good works will cleanse our sin. That would mean our works would save us to begin with and it would mean we don't have to confess our sins. But, that would contradict what he says in verse 9:
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (ESV)
Note the condition for the believer--they must confess their sins in order to be forgiven and cleansed, the word John uses in verse 7. That is, these are those sins committed by one who is already a believer. So, verse 7 is likely either talking about something different, or verse 9 is a detailed explanation of what it means to walk in the light--letting the light expose our sin so we can confess it, and have Jesus's blood cleanse us.
Where did Jesus say this?
Sure, but you appealed to verses that likely don't refer to saved persons.
Since I didn't do it once, I'm not doing it again. What have I supposedly added "to plain scripture"? It would be very helpful that if you're going to make such claims, that you specify what you're addressing.
Have you not read of false teachers and false prophets throughout the NT, even those that the churches put up with as though they were true teachers? Doesn't that mean these false teachers were not actually true Christians, but maybe even thought they were? Aren't we to recognize a tree by its fruit? Doesn't Paul warn about wolves in sheep's clothing? Doesn't Jesus say that there are tares among the wheat?
1Co 5:11 But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?
1Co 5:13 God judges those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.” (ESV)
Is an evil person saved?
Doesn't John, in the very passage we are discussing, clearly show that there are those who claim to be believers but are not? In just the next chapter, John says this:
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (ESV)
And Paul:
1Co 11:18 For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part,
1Co 11:19 for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. (ESV)
That there are those in churches who think they're saved, and maybe have others convinced they're saved, but are not actually saved, is definitely a teaching of Scripture.
So, again, be careful of avoiding words of Scripture; that is as bad as adding to it.
But, you're ignoring my point completely by ignoring what else Jesus said. Read that passage again, slowly, noticing what the people say.
- Apr 2, 2003
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Where does Paul put that caveat in? Paul says "nothing;" you say "nothing but ourselves." So, Paul's nothing doesn't really mean nothing. You warned me earlier about adding to Scripture.
So do I, but it is within bounds and subject to certain qualifications. No one has absolute free will. Besides, the question is not whether or not God will force us to be saved, although we will not "choose" to be saved in the first place apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, the question is whether or not once saved God will stop his work in us and let us go, after paying the ultimate price for our salvation. Since "it is God who works in [us], to will and to work for his good pleasure," I don't think he's going to stop.
It seems the strongest position is that anyone who wants to "choose" to become unsaved, was never actually saved to begin with.
That makes little of Jesus's death and makes sin greater than God's love.
Where does Jesus state this is possible?
Where is that stated in the passage?
Baptism doesn't save. A baptized person is not necessarily a saved person, especially in those traditions which practice paedobaptism.
And here is the main issue: the fee has been paid. Your position makes little of Jesus's death. Do you really understand the true cost of salvation, that no greater price could be paid? Our state is so bad that only the death of God's Son could suffice.
"We are his workmanship." Does God's workmanship fail? Do you really think that once a person is truly saved, that God, who saved them in the first place, is going to let people walk away if they choose?
This is what Paul is getting at by saying that "will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So, salvation is dependent on us now? That really makes light of God's plan of salvation and Christ's work.
Except that if it is God who works in us, to lose one's salvation means that God isn't working in us. That makes this verse false.
You're gaslighting. You are talking about other members, or another member.
You stated: "As I said Free....whether you wish to believe there are those that state obedience is not necessary and that we are not judged by our behavior, is of no relevance.
The fact is that these persons do exist, and, If I remember correctly, I sent you an exact quote."
You claimed you "sent . . . an exact quote," which was by another member in this thread. I responded by providing the post in which I responded to that "quote," and showed how you took it out of context.
Please stop gas-lighting. I had to tell you since you denied you ever made that claim--you said: "I NEVER said obedience is necessary for salvation." But, you said "We must believe AND OBEY in order to be saved."
I know you have and I have pointed out just as many times that your position is not biblical; it is self-contradictory: "We must believe AND OBEY in order to be saved" contradicts "AFTER salvation."
But they don't save us, otherwise there is no difference between our works saving us in the first place. This, too, undermines Christ's work on the cross and God's work in keeping us saved.
Gal 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? (ESV)
Paul's point is that adding anything to salvation, after one has already been saved, is to try and be "perfected in the flesh." That is another gospel. Being obedient and doing good works saves no one. Those who are already saved obey and do good works.
Yes, and it doesn't mean that such a person is actually saved.
You accept some of what Jesus taught, which means you're even taking that out of context. We should also accept what Jesus taught throughout the rest of the NT, right?
GodsGrace
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NOTHING can separate us from the love of God.
WHAT is Paul speaking of?
It's right there in
Romans 8:35
35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
Verse 38 states that nothing can separate us....
Is OURSELVES in the list?
38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
OURSELVES in nowhere to be found in Paul's writings.
WE can separate ourselves from God.
However, he does speak about OUR being able to fall away from our faith...
and the necessity to continue in the faith:
For example...by listening to false teachers. WE pay attention...and thus all away.
1 Timothy 4:1
1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons
We must continue in the faith:
Colossians 1:22-23
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,
Of course we have free will.
Biblical free will...
The free will to choose between two moral options.
Choose this day whom you will serve:
Deuteronomy 30:19
Acts 16:31
If OSAS is true...and we are saved no matter what...
then God is forcing us to be saved...
even if we do NOT WANT TO be saved by our bad behavior.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Behavior causes loss of heaven.
Men are free to choose their behavior.
The wrong choice AFTER SALVATION will keep us from attaining heaven.
No Free.
We CHOOSE to be saved.
No one is going to hell that does not want to be there.
God is not responsible for those going to hell...
He gives to all the same opportunity to be saved.
As long as the person meets with God's requirements:
Acts 10:35
35 “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
§When did I EVER say that God let's us go?
WE leave God.
GOD does not leave US.
We leave God when we fall from our faith,,,just as Paul stated.
We leave §God when we return to a life of sin.
WE leave God.
Great excuse.
But not a worthy one.
JESUS said a BELIEVER could become CUT OFF.... John 15:2
A BELIEVER could FALL AWAY....Luke 8:13
This is because you do NOT believe in free will.
Want to discuss the Reformed/Calvinist faith?
I'm willing.
See above.
Where is WHAT stated??
Can't find it.
Did I say ALL baptized persons are saved?
page 1 of 2
GodsGrace
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page 2 of 2
No.
Stating that obedience is not necessary is making little of Jesus' death.
Spitting on the face of Jesus is making little of His death.
Are you really explaining soteriology to me?!
Here's one for you:
WHY did §God make us so evil?
He could have made us good.
He is Sovereign, is He not??
I don't second-guess God.
I read the bible and it teaches things that I feel I MUST believe.
Others can read the bible and come up with their own ideas....
But yes, due to our FREE WILL,
God will make us walk away...
Our salvation depends on each and every one of us.
If I wish to throw away my salvation...
it is my free will right to do so.
IF we sin, and we have no free will...
that makes God the author of that sin.
It makes God the author of evil.
Here's what I meant:
I'm not here to discuss other members.
NOT
That other members did NOT make the statements I quoted (not verbatim).
I sent you a PM with an exact quote.
Which is totally irrelevant to this conversation.
I NEVER said obedience or works are necessary for salvation.
BUT
Obedience and works are necessary AFTER salvation.
I've said this very many times now...
If it is not understood...maybe the time should be taken to try to understand it instead of accusing me of gaslighting.
Could you prove this with scripture?
EVERYONE?
Is this what Jesus taught?
Please read again
John 15:2a
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;
Every branch IN JESUS ---this would be a saved person
That does NOT BEAR FRUIT, God takes away......God takes away, removes, cuts off, those that do not bear fruit.
That's Jesus saying it...
not me.
We must believe ALL of what Jesus taught.
No.
Stating that obedience is not necessary is making little of Jesus' death.
Spitting on the face of Jesus is making little of His death.
Are you really explaining soteriology to me?!
Here's one for you:
WHY did §God make us so evil?
He could have made us good.
He is Sovereign, is He not??
Free,,,I don't THINK anything.
I don't second-guess God.
I read the bible and it teaches things that I feel I MUST believe.
Others can read the bible and come up with their own ideas....
But yes, due to our FREE WILL,
God will make us walk away...
Answered above.
Yes sir.
Our salvation depends on each and every one of us.
If I wish to throw away my salvation...
it is my free will right to do so.
Here's one for you:
IF we sin, and we have no free will...
that makes God the author of that sin.
It makes God the author of evil.
Perhaps I stated it incorrectly...
Here's what I meant:
I'm not here to discuss other members.
NOT
That other members did NOT make the statements I quoted (not verbatim).
Not interested in I said he said you said.
I sent you a PM with an exact quote.
Which is totally irrelevant to this conversation.
Here, I'll say it again....
I NEVER said obedience or works are necessary for salvation.
BUT
Obedience and works are necessary AFTER salvation.
I've said this very many times now...
If it is not understood...maybe the time should be taken to try to understand it instead of accusing me of gaslighting.
It's unbiblical?
Could you prove this with scripture?
Responded to.
Do you know what THE LAW is?
Those who are saved do good works?
EVERYONE?
Is this what Jesus taught?
Please read again
John 15:2a
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;
Every branch IN JESUS ---this would be a saved person
That does NOT BEAR FRUIT, God takes away......God takes away, removes, cuts off, those that do not bear fruit.
That's Jesus saying it...
not me.
Jesus does not agree with you.
Agreed.
We must believe ALL of what Jesus taught.
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if you had eternal salvation you would need no more grace no more sanctification no more perfection, you would be glorified in heaven
but we are not!
we only have redemption, and justification in Christ by grace, now we need sanctification and more grace unto perfection
thks
Living members of Christ:
In the new covenant of grace by faith and baptism: Mk 16:16
union with God in Christ, communion with the saints:
Mt 28:20 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32
Abide in Christ and bear fruit: Jn 15:4
Deny thyself take up thy cross and follow Christ the good shepherd on the narrow road that leads to life:
mt 7:14 mt 16:24 phil 1:29
With prayer, fasting, alms, mass & sacraments, and the practice of the virtues of Jesus Christ: mt 7:7
mt 11:2 1 cor 13:13
Keeping ourselves in the love of God. Jude 1:21
Enduring to the end mk 13:13 Matt 10:22 matt 24:13
By the Supernatural good works the virtues of Jesus Christ (gifts of God) and the gifts of the holy spirit we can increase the grace we have received and by sin can lose all grace and salvation!
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 acts 22:16 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)
Redemption :
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 eph 2:1-8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.
Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21
Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29
Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13
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ask Judas?
gal 5:5 you can fall from grace
gal 5 eph 5 lose the grace of God and eternal life by sin!
gal 5:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
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so you reject the eternal words of Jesus Christ?
and "all scripture is inspired"
even one word?
Judas was never a saved person, as Jesus knew that He wa s a devil from very beggining, the one predestined to turn him over to his enemies
Per John, we know that in Jesus we are saved and have eternal life right now
For it is God Himself who will complete that which he started in all of us who are now the redeemed
I belive Jesus when he stated plainly that NONE whom the father has given to Him shall be lost, as ALL he shall raise up in the resurrection
