- Apr 2, 2003
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Actually, technically he isn't, as I'll explain below.
There is zero mention of losing one's salvation, "loss of eternal life," in those verses. (Hence why I asked.) Now, why would that be?
"MANY members" where? I have yet to see a member in this thread state "that obedience is not necessary, or does not matter." That very much is important to this conversation, lest you are misunderstanding and so misrepresent what others believe. Every member I have seen has said that obedience is not necessary for salvation, which is biblical. A person who is truly saved will obey, but that obedience doesn't save them or keep them saved.
More than that, we come back to disobedience being sin, which you avoided addressing previously. It comes back to these questions:
Is sin disobedience? If it is, then doesn't that mean we "decide whether or not to obey God," by not actually obeying him? Does one sin mean a person is no longer saved? Are we saved one minute and then not saved the next, the moment we sin?
Because, according to what you stated above--"Those that teach that obedience is not necessary, or does not matter, are, in effect, stating that a person COULD indulge in these behaviors and STILL be saved"--if you don't think that a person can commit those sins and be saved, then you're teaching sinless perfectionism, which is heresy. All of these things matter and must be taken into account, rather than making such broad, general statements.
The only people who will not attain the Kingdom of God are unbelievers, and unbelievers' lives are characterized by sin. Notice in particular, 1 Cor. 9:9, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?". All that Paul is saying in these places is that those who practice such things as a matter of lifestyle are not truly saved.
That is the same point that both Jesus and John make:
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. (ESV)
1Jn 3:3 And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.
1Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. (ESV)
The NT is consistent in stating that living a life of habitual, willful sin, a life characterized by sin, can only be done by someone who isn't saved.
What both you and he are close to teaching (pretty much implying), is sinless perfectionism. This is why I wanted you to address the fact that disobedience is sin and asked you a few questions about it, but you didn't want to answer. Every Christian sins:
1Jn 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)
The issue is whether there is conviction and asking for forgiveness, or whether one is not at all bothered by their sin and their sin is a matter of lifestyle.
Can they become saved again? If so, how?
2Pe 2:18 For, speaking loud boasts of folly, they entice by sensual passions of the flesh those who are barely escaping from those who live in error. (ESV)
2Pe 2:18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. (NIV)
According to M. R. Vincent:
"Were clean escaped
The A. V. follows the Tex. Rec., ὄντως ἀποφυγόντας; ὄντως meaning really, actually, as Luk 24:34; and the participle being the aorist, and so meaning were escaped. But the best texts all read ὀλίγως, in a little degree, or just, or scarcely; and ἀποφεύγοντας, the present participle, are escaping; and denoting those who are in the early stage of their escape from error, and are not safe from it and confirmed in the truth. Hence, Rev., correctly, who are just escaping. Ὀλίγως, only here."
So, it seems that Peter is mostly likely talking about those who were not truly converted yet, but moving in that direction.
Verse 20 does not mean that such persons were truly converted and saved. There are many who go to church, Sunday after Sunday, who act like a Christian and talk like a Christian and think they are saved, but have never actually been saved.
Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (ESV)
Of course, but whether it speaks of true believers or not doesn't matter. My point in using it is to differentiate from the numerous "Christians" who aren't actually Christians, who are false believers.
