Sinless To Be Saved

[JesusFan]

by "faith alone" or by obedience?

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

not saved now mk 13:13 mt 10:22 & 24:13

Saved unto good works, not saved due to good works

 

[JesusFan]

"IF"!!!

Jesus had NO IF on His declaration, so why would you?

 

[JesusFan]

who provides eternal salvation?

Jesus Christ!

how can a man have eternal salvation and not be in the kingdom of Jesus Christ!

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

more

you can fall from grace which is the life of God in us!
Judas fell from grace

gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

sin cause's eternal death
righteousness by grace cause's eternal life, thy will be done, keep the commandments etc.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(he does not say "faith alone")

1. 1 John 5:16
   If any man see his brother sin a sinwhich is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sinunto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
2. 1 John 5:17
   All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

spiritual death loss of union with God by Christ and grace

thks

NO Saved can experience spiritual death, as having been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and kept by Him until receive glorified state

 

[JesusFan]

No. And neither does God disown His children.

However if they choose to disown God then that is their choice.

Surely you understand this.


Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living…

But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’ ”


The son left the father, the father did not disown the son.

The prodigel always stayed the child and heir of the Father no matter how much sin was living in

 

[GodsGrace]

Saved unto good works, not saved due to good works

Try to understand this Jesus §Fan ----

Not even the CC teaches that we are saved by works....
NOT the works of The Law
and
NOT good works.

We are saved by FAITH.

donadams, JLB and every other member on here posting scripture about good works
are referring to AFTER salvation.

So,,,it would be nice to stop with the
"saved unto good works, not saved due to good works"
and get on with the teachings of the NT.

Which is:
The SAVED are to be obedient to God.
The SAVED are to do good works.

If you think this is not true...
just post some scripture that states this is incorrect and we are NOT to do good works
and we are NOT to be obedient to God - because that's what it will take.

 

[GodsGrace]

The prodigel always stayed the child and heir of the Father no matter how much sin was living in

Jesus doesn't agree with you.
Jesus said the Prodigal Son became lost after leaving home.

If YOU leave God...
YOU will also become lost.

Luke 15:24
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again;

Jesus said the son had come to life AGAIN...
This means the son was:
ALIVE
DEAD
ALIVE AGAIN

 

[Free]

who provides eternal salvation?

Jesus Christ!

how can a man have eternal salvation and not be in the kingdom of Jesus Christ!

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

more

Where does that verse or the context state that "a man have eternal salvation and not be in the kingdom of Jesus Christ"? That doesn't even make sense. To have eternal salvation is, by definition, to be in the kingdom of Jesus (John 3:1-21).

you can fall from grace which is the life of God in us!
Judas fell from grace

What do you mean by "grace"?

gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

In context, this verse is talking about adding works of the law to salvation; that is what makes one fall from grace--by putting oneself back under the law.

Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (ESV)

sin cause's eternal death
righteousness by grace cause's eternal life, thy will be done, keep the commandments etc.

Not by keeping the commandments. That is to put oneself under works, which means salvation is no longer by grace.

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(he does not say "faith alone")

1. 1 John 5:16
   If any man see his brother sin a sinwhich is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sinunto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
2. 1 John 5:17
   All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

spiritual death loss of union with God by Christ and grace

I don't know what your point is here.

 

[Free]

There are many verses about falling away from the faith.

1 Timothy 4:1

1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


Revelation 2:4-5
4‘But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
5‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent

Romans 11:22
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

Matthew 24:10
10“At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another.

There seem to be, just as there are verses which suggest that that is an impossibility:

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Rom 8:34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
Rom 8:36 As it is written, “For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered.”
Rom 8:37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

2Co 1:21 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us,
2Co 1:22 and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee. (ESV)

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (ESV)

Php 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (ESV)

Php 2:13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. (ESV)

As I said Free....whether you wish to believe there are those that state obedience is not necessary and that we are not judged by our behavior, is of no relevance.

The fact is that these persons do exist, and, If I remember correctly, I sent you an exact quote.

You said that a member here said that and provided the quote, but I showed you that you clearly took it out of context and it didn't mean what you said. That was HERE. And, I never said such persons do not exist, but simply that I have not seen anyone in this thread say that. I've said that a few times now.

Please stop.
I NEVER said obedience is necessary for salvation.

But you have. You said: "We must believe AND obey in order to be saved." That was HERE.

I've been saying that AFTER salvation we must obey God.

You said that too. But, as I have pointed out, there is no difference between saying "works keep us saved" and "our works save us to begin with." They are both earning salvation, which goes directly against Paul, particularly in Rom. 3, 4, and 5.

 

[Free]

And what does TRULY SAVED mean?
One is saved or not.

And I don't believe the following statement can be misunderstood :

"BEHAVIOR IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION...
WE WILL NOT BE JUDGED ON OUR BEHAVIOR"

This after JESUS stated we WILL be judged by our behavior.

John 5:27-29
27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Yes, but we know, based on the totality of the NT evidence, that our works are evidence of whether or not we are saved. You are promoting works salvation by misunderstanding this verse. Jesus is basically going to put all our works in scale and see which way it tips, and hopefully we've done enough good.

What is salvation actually based on?

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
Joh 3:20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.
Joh 3:21 But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” (ESV)

Notice first that Jesus says it is those who believe--put their faith and trust--in him have eternal life and are not condemned. Then he says that those who stand "condemned already," are those who have "not believed in the name of the only Son of God." There is no mention of works. It is by faith alone. And then verse 20 also supports what I've been saying all along--those who hate the light, those who are unsaved, do "wicked things." That is, those "wicked things" are evidence that they are not saved.

That is why we are judged on behaviour--because it is the evidence that we are either saved or not saved. Those works, good or bad, do not determine whether or not we are saved.

I'm not replying to statements that make no logical sense.
Sorry.

There is absolutely nothing illogical about them; they're just questions. Why do you continue to refuse to answer simple questions?

Again,,,,you're not quoting what I state.
I'm not going to spend time correcting what you don't understand about my statements.

I quoted you; they're your words. You stated: "Those that teach that obedience is not necessary, or does not matter, are, in effect, stating that a person COULD indulge in these behaviors and STILL be saved." That was HERE.

There is nothing to correct. When you continue to avoid relevant questions and take something else I say out of context of those questions, and if it looks like I need correction, then that is your misunderstanding.

We cannot live in sin an still be saved.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

A person is free to obey God or not.
Whether the above is practiced BEFORE salvation or AFTER salvation is of no importance...the result will be the same....
no entrance into the Kingdom of God...not here and not in heaven.

If a person "practices" those things, that is, if their life is characterized by those things, then they aren't saved and weren't saved to begin with.

1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (ESV)

Those that teach that we are not judged by our behavior are wrong...

We WILL be judged by our behavior.

Only as evidence as to whether or not we are saved.

Romans 8.12-13
12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul teaches that IF we are living by the spirit...we are putting to death the deeds of the body/flesh.
This teaches good behavior. We are to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.

Of course.

 

[donadams]

Saved unto good works, not saved due to good works

not saved!

Living members of Christ:

In the new covenant of grace by faith and baptism: Mk 16:16
union with God in Christ, communion with the saints:
Mt 28:20 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32

Abide in Christ and bear fruit: Jn 15:4

Deny thyself take up thy cross and follow Christ the good shepherd on the narrow road that leads to life:
mt 7:14 mt 16:24 phil 1:29

With prayer, fasting, alms, mass & sacraments, and the practice of the virtues of Jesus Christ: mt 7:7
mt 11:2 1 cor 13:13

Keeping ourselves in the love of God. Jude 1:21

Enduring to the end mk 13:13 Matt 10:22 matt 24:13

By the Supernatural good works the virtues of Jesus Christ (gifts of God) and the gifts of the holy spirit we can increase the grace we have received and by sin can lose all grace and salvation!

 

[donadams]

Jesus had NO IF on His declaration, so why would you?

Conditional perseverance:

((If you are saved there would no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance))

Conditional perseverance:

ex 20 mt 19:17 1 tim 6:14 keep the commandments
deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
ez 36:25-27 ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Mk 13:13 mt 10:22 endure to the end
Matt 7:14 narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life
Matt 16:24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matt 24:13 endure to the end
Jn 3:16 continues in believing
Jn 15:4 abide in christ
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
Jn 15:10 keep my commandments
Rom 1:5 obedience
Rom 8:13-17 but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 11:22 if thou continue in his goodness:
1 cor 7:24 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
2 thes 1:4 faith & patience
heb 6:12 faith and patience inherit the promises.
Gal 5:2-4 fallen
Gal 5:25 if we live in the spirit
Col 1:21-23 If ye continue in the faith
Col 2:5 steadfast
2 Tim 2:3 endure hardship
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
1 pet 2:20 if we suffer patiently
1 Jn 2:24-28 grace must abide in us
1 Jn 3:6 abideth in Him (Christ)
Heb 3:4-6 if we hold fast
Heb 6:4-9 if they fall away
Heb 12:7 if ye endure
Heb 12:22-25 if we turn away
James 1:12 endureth

1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[donadams]

Jesus had NO IF on His declaration, so why would you?

I'm saved and can't be lost!

then why are you still tempted?

why required to watch & prayer to avoid temptation and sin?

resist the devil?

resist unto blood?

Romans 5:21
That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

we still must choose!

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrowis the way, which leadeth unto life...

phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

james 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered intheflesh hath ceased from sin;

thks

 

[donadams]

NO Saved can experience spiritual death, as having been sealed by the Holy Spirit, and kept by Him until receive glorified state

I agree but who says we are saved?

sealed by the spirit is the grace of justification or baptismal regeneration

 

[JesusFan]

I agree but who says we are saved?

sealed by the spirit is the grace of justification or baptismal regeneration

God does, as he wrote to us that we may KNOW that we are saved and have eternal life right now

 

[Bruce.Leiter]

Bruce,
Agreed 100%

But I do believe that God can bring to completion any work that we either have to do...
or salvation itself.

I'd say that if we allow the Holy Spirit....He will help us to complete all works.

(you may not agree).

I agree, GodsGrace. I pray every day that God will complete my online and book ministries to touch many people's lives. That completion may take place after he has taken me home before Jesus returns. At his return, all of our service will have been completed. I look forward to that day either with my soul coming back with Jesus for my resurrection or for my translation to my resurrection body directly!

 

[donadams]

Where does that verse or the context state that "a man have eternal salvation and not be in the kingdom of Jesus Christ"? That doesn't even make sense. To have eternal salvation is, by definition, to be in the kingdom of Jesus (John 3:1-21).


What do you mean by "grace"?


In context, this verse is talking about adding works of the law to salvation; that is what makes one fall from grace--by putting oneself back under the law.

Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (ESV)


Not by keeping the commandments. That is to put oneself under works, which means salvation is no longer by grace.


I don't know what your point is here.

right so to have no part in the kingdom of Christ is to have no salvation

eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

 

[donadams]

Where does that verse or the context state that "a man have eternal salvation and not be in the kingdom of Jesus Christ"? That doesn't even make sense. To have eternal salvation is, by definition, to be in the kingdom of Jesus (John 3:1-21).


What do you mean by "grace"?


In context, this verse is talking about adding works of the law to salvation; that is what makes one fall from grace--by putting oneself back under the law.

Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (ESV)


Not by keeping the commandments. That is to put oneself under works, which means salvation is no longer by grace.


I don't know what your point is here.

grace or eternal life the life of God in us! Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10 Jn 14:6 Eph 2:1

 

[donadams]

Where does that verse or the context state that "a man have eternal salvation and not be in the kingdom of Jesus Christ"? That doesn't even make sense. To have eternal salvation is, by definition, to be in the kingdom of Jesus (John 3:1-21).


What do you mean by "grace"?


In context, this verse is talking about adding works of the law to salvation; that is what makes one fall from grace--by putting oneself back under the law.

Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you.
Gal 5:3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law.
Gal 5:4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. (ESV)


Not by keeping the commandments. That is to put oneself under works, which means salvation is no longer by grace.


I don't know what your point is here.

spiritual death loss of union with God by Christ and grace caused by sin

 

[donadams]

God does, as he wrote to us that we may KNOW that we are saved and have eternal life right now

saved does refer to eternal salvation in glory but in the process of salvation

grace is the life of God "eternal life" in us we can increase by supernatural works and gifts of the spirit or lose it by sin

Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10 etc.

 

[JesusFan]

saved does refer to eternal salvation in glory but in the process of salvation

grace is the life of God "eternal life" in us we can increase by supernatural works and gifts of the spirit or lose it by sin

Jn 1:16-17 Jn 10:10 etc.

We are saved right new have eternal life right now in the beloved, but then are part of ongoing sanctification process