Slain In The Spirit v2.0

[Free]

In all due respect, Free, for me it was because of the gray areas that flank the spectrum of an individual's acceptance of a belief as belonging to his/her religion.

Fair enough.

Pentecostals are considered Christian for far more than that they merely "preach from the Bible only." I think you need to do a lot more study on just what it is that defines a Christian and why Mormons cannot be considered Christians.

I don't classify Mormons as Christians, as I concluded in my OP, even though I didn't elaborate in too much detail as I continued to move toward my main point.

Yes, I see that. My point is that to say Pentecostals are considered Christians just because they preach from the Bible is to miss out on the real reason they are considered Christians and why Mormons are not. There are significant theological and doctrinal differences between the two.

Pentecostals are very much the same as many other denominations, with the exception that they believe in speaking in tongues, etc. There are core beliefs that define Christianity, core beliefs which any denomination or individual must have in order to truly be a Christian. Some of these core beliefs are not held by Mormons (or JWs), hence why they are not Christian. That is quite apart from them believing in the Book of Mormon.

That's all I was getting at. My apologies for coming off a little harsh and if I've just told you what you knew already.

Free, I've read many of your posts on this forum. I can't remember disagreeing with any of them . . . except for this one. I am forty years old. I have only seen "speaking in tongues" on two occasions in real life(I've watched many on YouTube). Both instances occurred in Pentecostal churches. It's not like I go to a different church every Sunday, but in my forty years, I've attended my "regular" churches on Sundays, and I've been to countless weddings, baptisms, and funerals. Besides my two visits to different Pentecostal churches, I have never seen speaking in tongues, people being slain in the Spirit, or faith healings.

Because I have learned that you are intelligent and I respect your advice from reading your posts, I will check further into your claim.

I believe I read about it a few years ago in The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity, by Philip Jenkins. Some don't even consider Pentecostalism a denomination anymore because it has made so many inroads into various denominations and streams of Christianity.

I should also mention that Jesus couldn't do much in his hometown because people had little faith. This is also true of churches and denominations where such things do not happen. They typically either deny such things still happen or they just don't have faith. God rarely "moves" in such circumstances.

To be honest, right now I can't explain why those Jewish leaders didn't naturally flock to Jesus. All I can say is that, in my opinion, those Jewish leaders were insane, evil, or something more further inexplicable. But, I honestly greatly believe that most people would naturally flock toward places where miracles are constantly happening. To be completely honest, I find it hard to believe that you don't agree with me on the majority of people flocking towards real live miracles.

Let's put it another way. They may flock but whether or not they do, most will find a way to "debunk" it all or rationalize it away somehow. It is just like the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The whole point is that many people will not be convinced "even if someone should rise from the dead" (Luke 16:31, ESV).

 

[Deborah13]

Today, it seems that either the Lutherans and Catholics aren't really giving it much thought, or they are being silent about their thoughts on this when interacting with members of "slain in the Spirit" churches. But, make no mistake, if a Lutheran or Catholic says he/she believes that these people are physically moved by the Holy Spirit, then why do they still attend their Lutheran or Catholic church? If they truly believed these people, Lutherans and Catholics would be flocking to these "slain in the Spirit" churches. People would naturally flock to places where real live miracles are constantly happening. Trust me.

You are too young I think to remember the 1970's. I was born again in 1977. Saved in Baptist and lead to Assemblies of God. We also had a mid-week Bible study in our home. This was in Connecticut. Two Catholic raised and bred couples came to that study. The wife of one couple had even gone to Catholic schools taught by the nuns K-12 and devout. The first couple received the gospel, got born again and did not go to the Catholic church any longer. The second couple got born again but continued to go to the Catholic church. Both couples believed the gifts of the Spirit are for today. The second couple said they stayed to witness to other Catholics about being born again. They did not go to confession any longer or say the rosary, etc. But they loved the people in their church.
We didn't not study the gifts or such things nor did we speak in tongues and interept, etc at our bible study therefore they did not come there for a "fix" if you will. They came to study the word which they did not get in their church. In fact, they were discourage from reading it on their own.
Like Reba said we can't put people in a box and we can't put God in a box. He will use who He chooses to use for whatever purpose He so desires.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

I don't classify Mormons as Christians, as I concluded in my OP, even though I didn't elaborate in too much detail as I continued to move toward my main point.

Yes, I see that. My point is that to say Pentecostals are considered Christians just because they preach from the Bible is to miss out on the real reason they are considered Christians and why Mormons are not. There are significant theological and doctrinal differences between the two.

Pentecostals are very much the same as many other denominations, with the exception that they believe in speaking in tongues, etc. There are core beliefs that define Christianity, core beliefs which any denomination or individual must have in order to truly be a Christian. Some of these core beliefs are not held by Mormons (or JWs), hence why they are not Christian. That is quite apart from them believing in the Book of Mormon.

I just realized something about myself. For me to attempt to properly categorize those three beliefs by "level of Christianity", with "Most Christian" being listed first, I would have to make two separate lists.

If the Holy Spirit physically moves at least one person in 50% or more of all the Pentecostal Churches in the world, my list would most certainly be this:

1)Pentecostalism
2)Jehovah's Witnesses
3)Mormonism

If the Holy Spirit has never physically moved anyone in any Pentecostal church, ever, my list would most certainly be this:

1)Jehovah's Witnesses
2)Pentecostalism
3)Mormonism

Obviously, the closer you get to the middle of those 2 proposed Pentecostalisms, the harder my decision is to make.

Why Jehovah's Witnesses over Pentecostalism in the second list? They both use the Bible. Jehovah's Witnesses interpret it differently. Making your Bible read "Jehovah" instead of both "Jehovah" and "Elohim" is just a minor detail, although I know they have majorly different interpretations of other parts of the Bible. Who doesn't interpret the Bible differently? Flipping and flopping around on the ground and speaking jibberish week after week throughout your entire-church going life, and claiming that it is the Holy Spirit that is making you do those things and claiming that you have little or no control over your physical actions is a huge detriment to you being "more Christian" than someone who was simply brought up to a different interpretation of the Bible. Everyone has been fooled to believe something false or not totally accurate, but acting like an idiot and attempting to fool others in serious spiritual matters is not acceptable. This is if the Pentecostalism in the second list is close to being accurate.

The Pentecostalism in the first list might be the most Christian denomination of all time, besides whatever name you would give to the denomination that Jesus Christ's original disciples belonged to.

That's all I was getting at. My apologies for coming off a little harsh and if I've just told you what you knew already.

No problem, Free.

I believe I read about it a few years ago in The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity, by Philip Jenkins. Some don't even consider Pentecostalism a denomination anymore because it has made so many inroads into various denominations and streams of Christianity.

That's interesting. I'll have to check it out.

I should also mention that Jesus couldn't do much in his hometown because people had little faith. This is also true of churches and denominations where such things do not happen. They typically either deny such things still happen or they just don't have faith. God rarely "moves" in such circumstances.

Let's put it another way. They may flock but whether or not they do, most will find a way to "debunk" it all or rationalize it away somehow. It is just like the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The whole point is that many people will not be convinced "even if someone should rise from the dead" (Luke 16:31, ESV).

Fair enough. Philosophically, anything's possible.

 

[reba]

Deb,

Dad held Bible studies at a Catholics home. The Priest would open the study then turn it over to dad...Dad about 50 years in the AofG...
I am skeptical of a lot because of the phonys i have known God is no phony nor was dad or is mom...

1Co_14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.

 

[Free]

I just realized something about myself. For me to attempt to properly categorize those three beliefs by "level of Christianity", with "Most Christian" being listed first, I would have to make two separate lists.

If the Holy Spirit physically moves at least one person in 50% or more of all the Pentecostal Churches in the world, my list would most certainly be this:

1)Pentecostalism
2)Jehovah's Witnesses
3)Mormonism

If the Holy Spirit has never physically moved anyone in any Pentecostal church, ever, my list would most certainly be this:

1)Jehovah's Witnesses
2)Pentecostalism
3)Mormonism

Obviously, the closer you get to the middle of those 2 proposed Pentecostalisms, the harder my decision is to make.

Why Jehovah's Witnesses over Pentecostalism in the second list? They both use the Bible. Jehovah's Witnesses interpret it differently. Making your Bible read "Jehovah" instead of both "Jehovah" and "Elohim" is just a minor detail, although I know they have majorly different interpretations of other parts of the Bible. Who doesn't interpret the Bible differently? Flipping and flopping around on the ground and speaking jibberish week after week throughout your entire-church going life, and claiming that it is the Holy Spirit that is making you do those things and claiming that you have little or no control over your physical actions is a huge detriment to you being "more Christian" than someone who was simply brought up to a different interpretation of the Bible. Everyone has been fooled to believe something false or not totally accurate, but acting like an idiot and attempting to fool others in serious spiritual matters is not acceptable. This is if the Pentecostalism in the second list is close to being accurate.

The Pentecostalism in the first list might be the most Christian denomination of all time, besides whatever name you would give to the denomination that Jesus Christ's original disciples belonged to.

I must admit that I don't entirely follow what you're getting at here. Really, either one is Christian or they are not. I do not see how there can be degrees of being Christian. The main deciding factor in the three religions above is the nature of God. Jesus is the central figure of the entire Bible and belief in who he is is really what separates Christians from those claiming to be Christian.

Mormons believe Jesus is a spirit child from the sexual union of God the Father and his supposed wife, making Jesus the spirit brother of Satan. God is just one of many gods, hence polytheism, which is completely unbiblical. The JWs believe that Jesus is a mere creature, a created being, formerly known as Michael the Archangel, if I recall correctly. Neither believe that Jesus is God in the true sense, yet not the Father, which is what the Bible teaches and what Pentecostals believe (with Oneness Pentecostals being an exception).

That is just one of the central beliefs of Christianity, which Pentecostals adhere to. Again, one of the main differences between Pentecostals and other Christian denominations is that they practice speaking in tongues. There is, however, an error in the way this is typically practiced in church settings. That very error is what Paul is addressing in 1 Cor 14. But note that Paul isn't saying not to do it, in fact he says tongues is a gift to be sought, he is just addressing it's misuse and perhaps even abuse. That is a significant issue for the Pentecostal church today.

 

[Blev]

There are Lutheran Charismatic churches/ organizations and also Catholic Charismatic churches/organizations, as well as others. One of the Pope's even prayed for another pentecost

 

[VirginShallConceive]

There are Lutheran Charismatic churches/ organizations and also Catholic Charismatic churches/organizations, as well as others.

They might call themselves "Lutheran Charismatic", but I don't think that Martin Luther would find them very charismatic. It's just like the name "Jesus Christ and the Latter-Day Saints". The real Jesus Christ might not want anything to do with their "church" and their latter-day charlatans.

One of the Pope's even prayed for another pentecost

If he did in fact pray for another Pentecost, it just goes to show that he doesn't believe in any of the constantly occurring "current pentecosts".

 

[Free Christian]

Old thread I know but... I was once in the Pentecostal church years ago. People would burst out in tongues all the time during prayer. Thing was the Bible say's that only a couple should do it and only if there is an interpreter, if not they should keep quiet. This church had over a dozen speaking out and no interpreters. Nothing even sounded remotely like a language. They also said to me that when I speak in tongues it will mean I then have the Holy Spirit. I used to be worried that I didn't have the Holy Spirit because I couldn't speak in tongues. I then read the Bible and asked them why the Bible talks about this differently to how they practice it? I also questioned what was the go with slain in the spirit. I mean, in the Bible the only people who fell down backwards were those who came to take Christ just before the crucifixion! The only other time people went down was to worship or show respect and reverence to God, but notice they went face down, not backwards. I also saw some people who the "catchers" couldn't physically hold on to and the person fell and hit their head! How on earth was that a blessing? I asked and mentioned all this as to why it wasn't anywhere in the Bible the things they did and why so many spoke with no interpreter? The head Pastor told me I was going to hell for questioning these things. This I might add was the biggest Pentecostal church in Melbourne Australia. Often too the service resembled more rock concert than a worship meeting. They preached the prosperity doctrine all the time as well and would cast out demons for everything from smoking cigarettes to swearing, all of which are just sins and not demon possession. When I left there all my friends there turned on me.

 

[10s3r]

Old thread I know but... I was once in the Pentecostal church years ago. People would burst out in tongues all the time during prayer. Thing was the Bible say's that only a couple should do it and only if there is an interpreter, if not they should keep quiet. This church had over a dozen speaking out and no interpreters. Nothing even sounded remotely like a language. They also said to me that when I speak in tongues it will mean I then have the Holy Spirit. I used to be worried that I didn't have the Holy Spirit because I couldn't speak in tongues. I then read the Bible and asked them why the Bible talks about this differently to how they practice it? I also questioned what was the go with slain in the spirit. I mean, in the Bible the only people who fell down backwards were those who came to take Christ just before the crucifixion! The only other time people went down was to worship or show respect and reverence to God, but notice they went face down, not backwards. I also saw some people who the "catchers" couldn't physically hold on to and the person fell and hit their head! How on earth was that a blessing? I asked and mentioned all this as to why it wasn't anywhere in the Bible the things they did and why so many spoke with no interpreter? The head Pastor told me I was going to hell for questioning these things. This I might add was the biggest Pentecostal church in Melbourne Australia. Often too the service resembled more rock concert than a worship meeting. They preached the prosperity doctrine all the time as well and would cast out demons for everything from smoking cigarettes to swearing, all of which are just sins and not demon possession. When I left there all my friends there turned on me.

Some Assemblies of God churches are really bent on speaking in tongues and the pre-trib rapture. I have my own understanding of speaking in tongues and I say it's the gift that's the easiest to counterfeit. I go to an AG quite often but all of them are different. There's some in southern NH that I'll never go to again because of the reasons you mention above.

 

[Free Christian]

Yes 10s3r they were the AOG. I probably should add that im sure there are many true believers of Jesus in many of these congregations. Its just much of what they are taught and practice is wrong.

 

[berk60]

Some Assemblies of God churches are really bent on speaking in tongues and the pre-trib rapture. I have my own understanding of speaking in tongues and I say it's the gift that's the easiest to counterfeit. I go to an AG quite often but all of them are different. There's some in southern NH that I'll never go to again because of the reasons you mention above.

When you said that,"it's the gift that's the easiest to counterfeit.", it reminded me of when I was flipping channels on TV recently and seen a preacher who was teaching people right there in the audience how to speak in tongues. If it's truly a gift of the Holy Spirit I don't think it can be taught. It's seems that the speaking in tongues in the Bible was a real language spoken by people who didn't know that language. Today's speaking in tongues is said to be God's language and it's special. It seems self edifying then, when in biblical times it was to edify others.

 

[Deborah13]

It seems self edifying then, when in biblical times it was to edify others.

Hi berk60, actually it was both in Biblical times...here is what Paul said in part in 1 Corinth. 14

14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit does pray, but my mind is unproductive. 15 So, what about it? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind. .. For undoubtedly you are giving thanks very nicely, but the other person is not being edified. 18I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you, 19 but in a congregation meeting I would rather say five words with my mind in order to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue!

In a congregation, there must be interpretation, but not alone as the spirit is edified.
There are reports of the gift of tongues, (real language) used to witness. Not planned just happened. Our Lord still uses miracles at His will.

 

[10s3r]

Some Assemblies of God churches are really bent on speaking in tongues and the pre-trib rapture. I have my own understanding of speaking in tongues and I say it's the gift that's the easiest to counterfeit. I go to an AG quite often but all of them are different. There's some in southern NH that I'll never go to again because of the reasons you mention above.

When you said that,"it's the gift that's the easiest to counterfeit.", it reminded me of when I was flipping channels on TV recently and seen a preacher who was teaching people right there in the audience how to speak in tongues. If it's truly a gift of the Holy Spirit I don't think it can be taught. It's seems that the speaking in tongues in the Bible was a real language spoken by people who didn't know that language. Today's speaking in tongues is said to be God's language and it's special. It seems self edifying then, when in biblical times it was to edify others.

And Deborah said,

In a congregation, there must be interpretation, but not alone as the spirit is edified.
There are reports of the gift of tongues, (real language) used to witness. Not planned just happened. Our Lord still uses miracles at His will.

In the book of acts it seems the gift was as much in the hearing of tongues as it was in the speaking of them and it was always spoken in a known human tongue. In the KJV the word unknown is italicized which means the word was added to the passage. The problem with speaking in an unknown non-human or angelic tongue esp. in public is that there's no way to really confirm that what was interpreted was indeed what was spoken. There's no way of authenticating that it truly was a miracle from God so it does nothing to convince the unbeliever it was indeed from God. However. Take the word unknown out of the text, or consider unknown as an earthly language that's unknown to you and you have a different story. In acts when Peter was speaking he was speaking in all of THEIR languages some of which were unknown to him and some unknown to them. So if an Arab unbeliever is visiting your church bilingual or not, hears a Texan speak in Arabic knowing the Texan can't speak Arabic then the unbeliever is lifted up, the gift is authenticated, and the congregation is also edified after he reveals it to them.

That in a nutshell is my take on tongues.

 

[Free Christian]

Yep, me too. A known language. And you cant teach a person to do it either, that's nowhere in the Bible.

 

[10s3r]

Yep, me too. A known language. And you cant teach a person to do it either, that's nowhere in the Bible.

I witnessed the gift twice when it was authentic. In my Church in Germany at the time there were three Muslim's from Cyprus who had visa problems and we were helping. They were astonished when they heard a message from God spoken by an American in a dialect of their native language. These guys could barely speak English and they were well acquainted with the speaker and knew he couldn't speak in their 'tongue.' They right away testified to the church about it and we were all edified!

That's how I've seen it and that's why I believe it the way I do.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This is the "Christianity & Other Religions" forum. One fascinating reality is that while some things fall somewhere in the middle of their classification, other things seem to float in that gray area between classifications. For instance, I was reading a thread in this forum that involved a Mormon. The Mormons usually consider themselves Christian. Many Christians consider Mormonism a seperate religion. Personally, if I had to choose one, I guess I would consider them non-Christian, with one of the main reasons being the Book of Mormon. But, I have to admit that I had to put some thought into my decision. For instance, I wouldn't even think of classifying Hindus as Christians. That one is easy.

This thinking-about-where-to-classify-Mormonism brings me to the fairly modern thriving of churches whose majority of members practice "miracles" of "speaking in tongues" and being "slain in the Spirit".

I, myself, come from a more traditional Roman Catholic/Lutheran background. Throughout history there have been many Christian creeds, doctrines, and various rituals. As far as us Catholics/Lutherans overwhelmingly see it, the last time speaking in tongues occurred was the one mentioned in the Bible.

So, you have the speaking in tongues in the Bible. Then, you have about 1800 or 1900 years of Christianity without it. All of the sudden, in the early 20th century, there's this explosion of "Christians" practicing speaking in tongues. They will even drop to the ground and start convulsing, like they have epilepsy. Is everyone required to believe that this is actually the Holy Spirit causing these violent outbursts?

You know, when I was a kid, I had a Pentecostal friend in school. He took me to his church. He and his mother warned me not to be alarmed if I saw anyone "speaking in tongues". So, the service starts, and lo and behold, this kid about two rows behind me eventually starts "speaking in tongues". At no point did I ever believe the Holy Spirit had anything to do with this. Like I said, there is a whole history of Christianity that dates back to Antiquity. If they were all speaking in tongues back in the 16th century, Martin Luther wouldn't have had the need to post his Ninety-Five Theses, because with the Holy Spirit running through all of them, all the Christians back then would have been on the same page.

I can see why people classify the Pentecostals and such as Christians, because they preach from the Bible only. But, there is a reality that looms. It is "the elephant in the room". Why do us Christians think Mormonism is wrong? It's because we know that Joseph Smith was lying about the "Golden Tablets". We know the Book of Mormon has zero inspiration from God Almighty. So, if the Holy Spirit has never had anything to do with those claiming to be "slain in the Spirit" or perfoming "healing services" or even "speaking in tongues", then these antics are no different than what Joseph Smith was doing.

Today, it seems that either the Lutherans and Catholics aren't really giving it much thought, or they are being silent about their thoughts on this when interacting with members of "slain in the Spirit" churches. But, make no mistake, if a Lutheran or Catholic says he/she believes that these people are physically moved by the Holy Spirit, then why do they still attend their Lutheran or Catholic church? If they truly believed these people, Lutherans and Catholics would be flocking to these "slain in the Spirit" churches. People would naturally flock to places where real live miracles are constantly happening. Trust me.

Wow... classifying Pentecostals as similar to Mormons.. Perhaps you should actually do some research 1) on the Bible and what it has to say, 2) what non-super-charismatics are like... My Church operates in the spiritual gifts but we do so in an orderly way, there is no people being slain in the Spirit or convulsing and shouting.

Honestly, this thread should be moved to another forum, posters would be insulted if a thread about Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. were started here and this is no different..

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Wow... classifying Pentecostals as similar to Mormons.. Perhaps you should actually do some research 1) on the Bible and what it has to say, 2) what non-super-charismatics are like... My Church operates in the spiritual gifts but we do so in an orderly way, there is no people being slain in the Spirit or convulsing and shouting.

Honestly, this thread should be moved to another forum, posters would be insulted if a thread about Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. were started here and this is no different..

Hi, Doulos!

I obviously disagree.

How would you respond to post #5?

 

[Free]

I obviously disagree.

How would you respond to post #5?

And how would you respond to post #25?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

How can I possibly convince you to see from my point of view?

Let me try this:

There have been many people who have claimed to be the Second Coming of Christ. Have you ever found yourself hurrying over to their church to be with Jesus? You are probably just like me in that regard. You and I know, as much as we know anything, that they are either lying or they are insane. Jesus could be anywhere He wants to be. Should we now think, "You know, I bet some of these Jesus claimants are liars, but I have to respect them all because some of them are probably telling the truth"?

It's no different for the Roman Catholics/Lutherans/Eastern Orthodox/etc. when properly addressing both Pentecostals and the Second Comers. Either Jesus is preaching in the flesh as we speak in the Second Coming churches and has totally or somewhat abandoned the Catholics/Lutherans/Orthodox, or He isn't, and I am better off in my normal, non-blasphemous church. Either the Holy Spirit is causing powerful seizures in the Pentecostal church down the street and has totally abandoned my church throughout its entire history, or He isn't, and I am better off in my normal, non-blasphemous church.

What if, let's say, a Muslim showed up in this forum. This Muslim is losing faith in his religion. He was doing some research and found out that they found some scrolls near the Dead Sea that really put a hurtin' on his once-beloved Quran. You could possibly see some Lutherans and Pentecostals in his thread teaming up to try to convert him, all the while not worrying about which denomination he will end up if he's converted, as long as it's Christian. Now let's say a man enters the thread claiming to be the Second Coming of Christ, and tries to join in on the Christians' side. If the Muslim ends up joining the church of the Jesus imposter, do you think that Lutherans and Pentecostals would relax, thinking this former Muslim is now saved?

Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit . . . same difference.

If the term "same difference" is properly applied anywhere, it is properly applied here. Holy Trinity = 3 in 1. Same, but different.

The question I believe is not, whether or not the Spiritual Gifts for today. I think that it is unquestionable within the Biblical teaching, though if you are Cessasionalist I will be happy to debate you on the matter.

The question I believe we need to ask this this: Are those claiming to operate in the Spiritual Gifts actually doing so?

Some people point out gifts like tongues as it is one of the more "odd" gifts that people don't really understand, when tongues seems to have two uses according to Paul, 1) to edify the individual as a prayer language, and 2) interpretive tongues, where the person speaks before the congregation in tongues and gives the interpretation for that prophetic utterance. These are not to be held as 100% from God as the Spirit is subject to the prophets, and the prophets in this case are fallible. We need to test everything against Scripture and hold fast to what is good and toss out the bad.

However, with regards to people being "slain in the Spirit" I don't think that is a genuine manifestation of the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit's expression in the Church Body is orderly and as stated earlier, subject to the prophet. In other words, the Spirit shouldn't "take over" a person's body to cause them to do anything, it is two wills working in tandem.

Also, have you done research on miraculous occurrences throughout Church History, as performed by many different Christians across denominations?

Another point.. and something you seem to have not factored into your way of thinking. The Spiritual gifts according to Scripture are something that need to be sought after, the gifts are given of course as God wills, but we are admonished to eagerly desire and go after the higher gifts.

This isn't a different "Spirit" or a different "Jesus," the issue is are the gifts for today? If so, how can we seek them and what do they really look like.

I suggest not looking to radical expressions as an example as we can find Catholics that literally worship Mary in some parts of the world, but they don't really represent the majority of Catholics do they?

Hope this helps,
Servant of Jesus

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Free, I am so sorry for not responding to this sooner. I am amazed that I didn't.

I must admit that I don't entirely follow what you're getting at here. Really, either one is Christian or they are not. I do not see how there can be degrees of being Christian.

We might have to agree to disagree on this one, and I'm fine with that. I seriously had to think about the Mormons for at least one minute before I came to the conclusion that I don't consider them to be Christian.

The main deciding factor in the three religions above is the nature of God. Jesus is the central figure of the entire Bible and belief in who he is is really what separates Christians from those claiming to be Christian.

Mormons believe Jesus is a spirit child from the sexual union of God the Father and his supposed wife, making Jesus the spirit brother of Satan. God is just one of many gods, hence polytheism, which is completely unbiblical.

Overall, I would classify the Mormons as non-Christian. Would I classify them as such for polytheism alone? No. Lately, I've been wondering if Christianity itself isn't polytheistic. This is something new for me, but I've been wondering about it. (It seems that, with a topic like this, every single sentence that we type in response to each other could be a thread on its own, and might have already been.)

The JWs believe that Jesus is a mere creature, a created being, formerly known as Michael the Archangel, if I recall correctly.

Well, they do believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for their sins. A Triune God is a difficult concept for some people to wrap their head around. As far as the Michael/Jesus thing, I surely don't subscribe to that doctrine. But, I don't think the people who do are purposely trying to be evil or misleading. I think that is just how they interpret it, and I am not offended by it. I saw a thread on the "Jesus/Michael Connection" awhile back. I don't even remember the person who was pro-Michael/Jesus even being a JW. The Bible can be very unclear or even seemingly contradictory on some issues that some Christians find extremely important, while others do not feel that they are important. Just look at our Apologetics & Theology section. One day, you find yourself agreeing with one member and not another. The next day, it's the opposite. Some of these people could even claim to be of the same "denomination" as the person who they disagree with.

Do I consider JW's as being Christian if my only two options were placing a check mark in the "Yes" or "No" box? I check "Yes". This is why I believe that there is a wide spectrum of degrees of what one person might consider as Christian or not(I know that you and I disagree on this).

What if you met a preacher who believed every single doctrine that you do down to every last detail except for one: He claims to be the Second Coming of Christ. You, not surprisingly, don't believe him. Do you consider him Christian or non-Christian? Was your decision easy to arrive at, or was it difficult?

Neither believe that Jesus is God in the true sense, yet not the Father, which is what the Bible teaches and what Pentecostals believe (with Oneness Pentecostals being an exception).

That is just one of the central beliefs of Christianity, which Pentecostals adhere to. Again, one of the main differences between Pentecostals and other Christian denominations is that they practice speaking in tongues. There is, however, an error in the way this is typically practiced in church settings. That very error is what Paul is addressing in 1 Cor 14. But note that Paul isn't saying not to do it, in fact he says tongues is a gift to be sought, he is just addressing it's misuse and perhaps even abuse. That is a significant issue for the Pentecostal church today.

I chose to use Pentecostals as an example because when I think of "speaking in tongues", "being slain in the Spirit", or "faith healing", that is the first denomination that pops into my mind. But, someone mentioned, "Hey, there are also Catholics who speak in tongues!" So, I'm just going to switch my example to all "tongue speakers".

To take a page out of your book (jk), I am going to say that you are either a "tongue speaker" or you are not.

It seems to me that both sides should be more vocal about how heretical the other side is.

From the "tongue speaker" side, you have the Holy Spirit performing real live miracles. The other side is denying that this miracle is happening. The other side is totally missing out, only to blow it off and to continue on without seeking the gifts of the Spirit.

From the other side, you see a bunch of people claiming to be Christians and claiming that the Holy Spirit is causing them to speak in tongues, just like the stuff you read about in the Bible, only you are "certain" that they are liars.

Like I said, it just seems to me that both sides downplay or outright avoid acknowledging this huge difference in practice.