Bible Study SO YOU THINK YOU ARE SAVED.

[Chopper]

I see you shrinking down fast into contentiousness. Can you relate this to the topic of the thread in some way?

Many, many 'Christians' act like they don't have the new nature--like no change has occurred in them at all. One of two things is true: 1) they simply don't have the new nature as claimed, or 2) they are terribly ignorant of that new nature and are easily led away and deceived into thinking they still have it and HAVE to sin. Honestly, I'm not sure which one is more true. I used to think #1, but maybe #2 is the more common reason.

I liked what you just posted because it fit's into my thinking that all who say they're saved, some are not, but they think they are. It's a fine line between saved and being chastised because of sin, and no chastisement because there is no re-birth. It's quite hard to distinguish between the two.

 

[Chopper]

Ok folks. now that a foundation has been laid, I have a question about chastisement that needs an answer.

If, Joe Schmuckface is a sound believer in Christ Jesus and he steals Jethro Bodine's truck. Joe is not sorry and won't give it back until he wrecks it. He asks Jethro for forgiveness as well as God for stealing. God see's the hurt that Joe has inflicted on Jethro and chastises Joe with a huge loss financially.

Question # 1.. How does Joe know that the financial loss is the result of his sin against Jethro.
Question # 2.. Lets say there is no financial loss for Joe, and he goes on his merry way leaving poor Jethro without a truck. Joe thinks he's saved, but there is no chastisement for his sin against God and Jethro. Can he figure out that He's not saved?

These questions may not have an answer but it is a reality in the sin and chastisement issue.

Lets look at....
1Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

This is our model text. How would we discern if we are being chastised?
On the other hand, if we took of the the elements of Communion in an unworthy manner and no chastisement comes, are we Lost?

Is there an answer?

 

[for_his_glory]

If there was no chastisement from God for stealing then Joe truly was not of God, Hebrews 12:5-8. Some people only give lip service to the Lord as they have not Gods spirit in them. Jethro should forgive him for stealing his truck as if we do not forgive, God will not forgive us, Mark 11:25, 26.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Chopper
Chastisement in any language means punishment.
You first need to distinguish between punishment and discipline.

 

[Malachi]

Is there an answer?

And then we have righteous Job, who lost everything although he was not being chastised.
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was (1) perfect and (2) upright, and one that (3) feared God, and (4) eschewed evil. (Job 1:1).

 

[Chopper]

Chopper
Chastisement in any language means punishment.
You first need to distinguish between punishment and discipline.

Sorry, I don't play word games.

 

[Chopper]

And then we have righteous Job, who lost everything although he was not being chastised.
There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was (1) perfect and (2) upright, and one that (3) feared God, and (4) eschewed evil. (Job 1:1).

O yes, Job. You're right. That was a test of faith. That's a horse of a different color.

 

[ezrider]

If Christ accepts you for who you are, why then try and obey the law? What becomes your motivation to seek after the knowledge of sin and death?

EZ
Watch the road! Your bike is swerving...

Your first pp is legitimate. She could have thought as you say. From scripture it seems like she wanted to be wise, as God was. Okay. She had her reasons for wanting to be wise. It still doesn't make it right - she did something God told her not to do. She tried to do something on her own. You know the story of Ishmael. Genesis 16. It never turns out good. And, in fact, it didn't.

Please explain your second pp. I don't get it. You question why we obey the law, then you say it's seeking after sin and death. Did I misunderstand?

Wondering

Just so you know, when I do swerve, it is with purpose and intent.

Perhaps you did misunderstand my intent. It was a follow up a question for you based upon the question you asked of Eve. Why would she eat? So knowing that eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil resulted in the penalty of death; And knowing that the purpose of the law is to reveal in us Sin by the penalty of Death, through which the prophets called a Covenant with Death, Is there really any difference between the Tree of Knowledge and the Law?

So in trying to understand Eve's motivation, I asked you what is your motivation for knowing good and evil according to the law. What is your motivation for seeking after the knowledge of Sin within the Law? Answer that and then you may begin to understand Eve's motivations for eating of the same.

 

[gr8grace3]

Ok folks. now that a foundation has been laid, I have a question about chastisement that needs an answer.

If, Joe Schmuckface is a sound believer in Christ Jesus and he steals Jethro Bodine's truck. Joe is not sorry and won't give it back until he wrecks it. He asks Jethro for forgiveness as well as God for stealing. God see's the hurt that Joe has inflicted on Jethro and chastises Joe with a huge loss financially.

Question # 1.. How does Joe know that the financial loss is the result of his sin against Jethro.
Question # 2.. Lets say there is no financial loss for Joe, and he goes on his merry way leaving poor Jethro without a truck. Joe thinks he's saved, but there is no chastisement for his sin against God and Jethro. Can he figure out that He's not saved?

These questions may not have an answer but it is a reality in the sin and chastisement issue.

Lets look at....
1Corinthians 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
11:32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

This is our model text. How would we discern if we are being chastised?
On the other hand, if we took of the the elements of Communion in an unworthy manner and no chastisement comes, are we Lost?

Is there an answer?

OR...............was Jethro being disciplined OR was Jethro being tested?

 

[smaller]

Are you saying that the Lord created Adam in corruption, weakness and dishonor?

I cited Paul's statements of how Adam, the natural man was made from 1 Cor. 15:43-49, and likewise every natural man that followed.

That does not make his body weak, corruptible and dishonorable.
JLB

One of us takes the print, verbatim. Your conclusion won't and can't line up.

 

[smaller]

Bingo. Wondering gets it. There is absolutely a choice involved too. If we had no choice but simply had to sin because of sin indwelling in us then we've got our blank check, let's go party...not.

Party or not there are no sinless people, never have been with One sole exception.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Sorry, I don't play word games.

In other words, you want me out.
Fine, I'm not God, I'll remember this.

 

[JLB]

I'm at a complete loss as to why you think it necessary to even entertain the absurd notion that Adam and Eve were perfect and never sinned again after the fall. Why are they different than the rest of us that they should not become slaves to sin as the result of obeying sin (Romans 6:16 NASB)?

Just post the scripture Jethro, that led to your unbiblical conclusion that Adam and Eve were given over to a life of bondage to sin by God, because they, in their innocence fell prey to the evil one.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression [singular] of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Romans 5:14

How old were Adam and Eve, when this happened?

How many years had they lived on the earth?

These two were fully formed adults, with the capacity of two year old children, if that.



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just post the scripture Jethro, that led to your unbiblical conclusion that Adam and Eve were given over to a life of bondage to sin by God, because they, in their innocence fell prey to the evil one.

Here it is again:
"16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?" (Romans 6:16 NASB)

 

[smaller]

From observation I'd have to say that the deception of indwelling sin, which is demonic, has it's lowest most successful work in the believers. How so?

Believers who think they are not sinners or are only sinners when they do the act (or only when they get caught) really do have honesty problems. In this indwelling sin has turned may into liars and hypocrites. The very people Jesus showed the most disdain for, and He did so because that activity IS demonic in the people making such claims. It's one of the things I look for in fellowship. Am I dealing with an honest person or not on this issue? Or am I dealing with yet another religious phony who pretends they are something other than what they really are?

Doesn't mean I would say such aren't saved. But they are just not honest. And that I can't tolerate.

 

[JLB]

Here it is again:
"16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?" (Romans 6:16 NASB)

17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Romans 6:17-18

Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them. Genesis 3:21

Was this not a type of the sacrifice to come, whereby the innocent, would pay the price to redeem the guilty, so that their sins would be removed?

• You assume what the Lord did for them, was insufficient.

• You assume that the Lord did not forgive them.

• Again, you assume that Adam and Eve sinned again.

Please post the scripture that describes or identifies the other sins they committed.

Something that would clarify, and over rule what is said here in Romans 5.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. Romans 5:14

This scripture says to me that there was one transgression that Adam committed, which was really committed by Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 1 Timothy 2:14

Their transgression was eating of the tree.

I just don't see any other transgression they committed.

If that's not how you see it, then so be it.


I'm going to drop it, and let Chopper's points be made without disrupting his thread.

Be blessed. :nod


JLB

 

[RevSRE]

I have a question for you Chopper, Paul says in Romans 10:9-11
Rom 10:9 That if you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believes unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture says, Whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.
I have been in the Church for over 60 years and have heard many explanations of what these verses mean. I know what this SAYS, but people always add things to what is needed for SALVATION. I take it to say, Believe in your heart (meaning your LIFE) and confess with mouth, AND YOU ARE SAVED. All the rest is in the area of CHRISTIAN LIVING, That is living the Life in Christ.
OK, the question is, How much is required TO BE SAVED??
Believe, confess, keep commandments, go to church, love the breathern, tithe, You get the point.
Or How much can one do and not be saved, We are saved by grace not works.
I truly do not know!!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Believers who think they are not sinners

In thirty years as a born again Christian I have yet to meet one.

 

[smaller]

In thirty years as a born again Christian I have yet to meet one.

There are a wide array of self justifying views on the subject.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Question # 1.. How does Joe know that the financial loss is the result of his sin against Jethro.

I would think that any financial loss on his part which is directly related to repairing or replacing my truck would be an obvious indicator that his pain is simply the result of his sin. Any financial loss beyond that and not directly related to the incident is what Schumckface has to determine as being a punishment from God of some sorts or not. My first inclination would be that since he made it right with me financially and there was a true humility of repentance about the situation there is no reason for God to chastise him with additional ongoing financial strain. In fact, I would not be surprised if God does the exact opposite and blesses him abundantly.

Question # 2.. Lets say there is no financial loss for Joe, and he goes on his merry way leaving poor Jethro without a truck. Joe thinks he's saved, but there is no chastisement for his sin against God and Jethro. Can he figure out that He's not saved?

Schmuckface would have to seriously consider that he may not be saved at all since God apparently feels no obligation to punish him for his sin as a Father would punish his own son in the hope of teaching him not to do that anymore. But we have to remember, too, that David was a real Schmuckface, and God did eventually approach him about his sin, but it did take a whole year before he did that through the prophet Nathan. Maybe there's a lesson there for us to consider in the matter of God's timing. What was the value of a whole year of not being punished? I don't know.


All this reminds me of how the Bible tells us how important it is for us Christians to keep clear consciences so that when we do suffer we know with confidence that we are suffering for righteousness sake, not because we are suffering for our own wrong doing. I know from personal experience that it is tough to ask God for comfort and deliverance in the midst of suffering when there is the possibility that it's your own fault that you are suffering. But if we are suffering for righteousness sake (we did nothing wrong but are being unjustly abused) we can find comfort and strength in the fact that God knows this and that we can expect his merciful intervention in some form or another.