Bible Study SO YOU THINK YOU ARE SAVED.

[GodsGrace]

She was unclothed.

Why do you think Adam and Eve had to have a sin nature to sin? Do you have to have the nature of a dog to bark like a dog? Of course not. The difference between you barking like a dog, and a dog barking is, you don't do that by the very nature of who and what you are. A dog does. That's why I have to say you barking LIKE a dog. You are not by nature a dog. You can only be like a dog.

So because it is the nature of a dog to bark he has no choice but to do that. Likewise with us in regard to sin. Because of a change of nature we don't have to sin. We still can, but we don't have to by nature anymore. Our old nature was that we DID have to sin, like a dog has to bark. God turned us over to that so that sin would be our very nature. Are you still in that nature, or do you agree with Paul that we are no longer slaves to sin in that we HAVE to sin, like a dog has to bark?

Adam and Eve, after they sinned, DID have to sin as a matter of who and what they were, because God turned them over to that. In Christ, that nature is removed and replaced with a new nature--the nature of Christ's righteousness--a nature that doesn't have to bark....I mean....sin. The sinful nature was not that Adam and Eve were capable of sin. The sinful nature was sin becoming the very characteristic and definition of who they were and what they did--like how barking defines a dog. I'm thinking you're not getting this because you still can't distinguish between what a creature can do, and what that creature does because it is in the nature of that creature to do so.

Ooops Jethro -
You're back into the sin nature. We were discussing Adam and Eve.
Been busy. Will be doing my studying today on whether or not The Flesh and The Sin Nature is the same.

But back to Adam and Eve:
They didn't have to have the sin nature to sin?
And sin wasn't in their flesh.
So, here we are again. WHAT made them sin?

Hint Jethro. There's no answer...

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

↑FOR JETHRO

Can't do that quote thing...

I asked:
She didn't have the sin nature YET, so what made HER tend toward the evil?

You replied:
She was unclothed.

By unclothed I know you mean she wasn't "wearing Jesus."

It won't work.
We have Jesus. We could wear Him. We still sin because of our flesh.

Eve didn't have Jesus to wear. So what?
God made her good. She knew no evil. She didn't have "the flesh" or the "sin nature" yet. She didn't NEED to wear Jesus. She was good and pure till she ate.
The flesh or sin nature was in the tree of knowledge - she hadn't eaten of its fruit yet.

See?

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Wow Steven, thank you so very much. I was thinking of a list and you provided it. That's a lot of work as you say. I hope everyone reads it. Jesus says, if you love me keep my commands.

Hi Chopper,
There's a problem with lists.
I have difficulty remembering everything on there.
We don't need a list.
We need Jesus' COMMANDMENTS.
Every other thing He said to do is covered by these commandments:
Mathew 22:37-39
Then Jesus said ALL THE LAW and the prophets hang on these two commandments.

Love covers all.
No need for lists.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, I've never made that claim. 1 Cor. 15:43-49 is very clear that the natural man, which Adam was, is planted in weakness, corruption, dishonor.

The flesh has been made "subject to" intrusion by the tempter. And that intrusion arrived "into" the weak, corruptible dishonorable dust/flesh of Adam immediately after Gods Words of blessings were spoken to him as Mark 4:15 stipulates. We know that this did happen because after this came the first law, do not eat, and the law is for "sinners" and the "lawless." We can not see this matter as one of just Adam, but of the fact of Mark 4:15, Satan entered Adam's heart. Satan is assuredly a sinnner and entirely lawless as such.

So seeing the law just to Adam is pointless. There was more going on "in" the flesh of Adam than meets the eye.

I would prefer when you use my name that a fairly accurate recount of statement is made, as I did NOT claim Adam had no sin nature.

The flesh has had indwelling sin from the beginning, from the instant God Spoke to the flesh man, Adam, THEN Mark 4:15 happened as a matter of fact.

Paul shows us this same matter, exactly, as the "entrance" of sin into the flesh of man:

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The entrance of SIN came when the tempter entered the heart of Adam, EXACTLY as Jesus stipulated in Mark 4:15.

Smaller,
Your claim, that I was referring to, is your second pp.

Maybe the way I expressed it in my post didn't turn out right.
Sorry. But I did mean what you say in your second pp and I believe I was speaking to Jethro soI hope he sees this.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

That was from Adam's sin, by eating of the fruit.

What "other" sin did they commit, as you said they were turned over to be sinners by God.

JLB

Well JLB, we can't know what other sins they committed. They were forbidden to remain in the garden and forced to go out into the world. Once there they very naturally sinned - they became just like we all are now after they ate of the fruit. They now knew good and evil. The sin nature entered into man.

Now, were they "sinners" in the way that you understand it?
I don't see how we could know. I kind of doubt it since they had spoken to God and knew their maker.
But they definitely sinned.

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I see you shrinking down fast into contentiousness. Can you relate this to the topic of the thread in some way?

Many, many 'Christians' act like they don't have the new nature--like no change has occurred in them at all. One of two things is true: 1) they simply don't have the new nature as claimed, or 2) they are terribly ignorant of that new nature and are easily led away and deceived into thinking they still have it and HAVE to sin. Honestly, I'm not sure which one is more true. I used to think #1, but maybe #2 is the more common reason.

See Jethro,
This is the problem with thinking the sin nature is dead. It leads you to make one of your two assumptions.
If you believe it's under submission, everything is easier to explain without having to wrap our brain around how we sin if the sin nature is dead. Having to make distinctions between "the flesh" and the "sin nature".

Because, in reality, neither of the two are true.
1. Who are we to know or decide if they have the new nature? Do we get it all of a sudden? is the change immediate? Do we not have to go through sanctification all our lives? Justification is immediate - sanctification is not. Maybe the person is just at a lower level of sanctification. Maybe they'll never get to a higher level. Isn't this why we need the saving power in Jesus? So God saves us IN HIS SON, not because of our works. (this doesn't mean we don't keep the commandments). (anyone going through sanctification will want to.)
2. I don't know anybody who knows the Lord and feels they HAVE to sin, as you stated above. I know that people sin. I know we're weak. I know it's impossible to be sinless or John would not have told us not to sin and to confess our sins. Of course we keep sinning. Does this mean we don't have the victory? NO.
We have the victory because the SIN NATURE IS UNDER SUBMISSION. THIS is our victory - that we are no longer slaves to it.

You used to think it was no. 1 - now you think it's no. 2

I stopped worrying about this about 30 years ago and the way I view the sin nature has helped me in that I don't have to think about it or worry about how it is anymore.

--why can't you just agree with me so I don't have to do that study? --


Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Just so you know, when I do swerve, it is with purpose and intent.

Perhaps you did misunderstand my intent. It was a follow up a question for you based upon the question you asked of Eve. Why would she eat? So knowing that eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil resulted in the penalty of death; And knowing that the purpose of the law is to reveal in us Sin by the penalty of Death, through which the prophets called a Covenant with Death, Is there really any difference between the Tree of Knowledge and the Law?

So in trying to understand Eve's motivation, I asked you what is your motivation for knowing good and evil according to the law. What is your motivation for seeking after the knowledge of Sin within the Law? Answer that and then you may begin to understand Eve's motivations for eating of the same.

EZ
Happy to know you swerve with purpose and intent!
Took a ride on a Honda 750 once. ONCE!


So you're question is: Is there any difference between the tree of knowledge and the law?

I'd have to say No. God gave Adam the Law. God told him not to eat from that one tree. This was a law. Adam broke the law - the first law ever given to man. So now we're given more laws, and we still break them. The Mosaic Covenant could not be kept even though the Jews said they would.

The tree revealed the sin, just as the Law reveals sin.
I see a little bit of a difference but it's such a small nuance I hesitate to get into it:
When we break the law, it reveals our tendency toward sin, our willingness to sin - thus it reveals the death we have in our spirit (before being born again) and also the death we will have physically at some point.

The tree reveals sin also. But this is the point I can't quite make clear. WHAT sin was it revealing if man had no sin in him yet? I guess we could say it revealed his tendency to sin - but it's the sin nature that makes us have this tendency and Adam didn't have it yet. See?

As to your second pp, I can't answer it. I don't have a motivation for knowing good and evil. I know both from birth. It's not my desire to know both - I just do. I wish we could know only the good. Romans would never have had to be written... You're going to have to help me out here.

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

I would think that any financial loss on his part which is directly related to repairing or replacing my truck would be an obvious indicator that his pain is simply the result of his sin. Any financial loss beyond that and not directly related to the incident is what Schumckface has to determine as being a punishment from God of some sorts or not. My first inclination would be that since he made it right with me financially and there was a true humility of repentance about the situation there is no reason for God to chastise him with additional ongoing financial strain. In fact, I would not be surprised if God does the exact opposite and blesses him abundantly.


Schmuckface would have to seriously consider that he may not be saved at all since God apparently feels no obligation to punish him for his sin as a Father would punish his own son in the hope of teaching him not to do that anymore. But we have to remember, too, that David was a real Schmuckface, and God did eventually approach him about his sin, but it did take a whole year before he did that through the prophet Nathan. Maybe there's a lesson there for us to consider in the matter of God's timing. What was the value of a whole year of not being punished? I don't know.


All this reminds me of how the Bible tells us how important it is for us Christians to keep clear consciences so that when we do suffer we know with confidence that we are suffering for righteousness sake, not because we are suffering for our own wrong doing. I know from personal experience that it is tough to ask God for comfort and deliverance in the midst of suffering when there is the possibility that it's your own fault that you are suffering. But if we are suffering for righteousness sake (we did nothing wrong but are being unjustly abused) we can find comfort and strength in the fact that God knows this and that we can expect his merciful intervention in some form or another.

Very well said my friend....Home Run!

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper,
There's a problem with lists.
I have difficulty remembering everything on there.
We don't need a list.
We need Jesus' COMMANDMENTS.
Every other thing He said to do is covered by these commandments:
Mathew 22:37-39
Then Jesus said ALL THE LAW and the prophets hang on these two commandments.

Love covers all.
No need for lists.

Wondering

I appreciate your sentiments. I like the list because it is like a fingerprint of Jesus that shows us His Nature. I like to know what a person likes and dislikes, that's all that is intended with the list. Jesus reveals so much more than the list in the beatitudes.

 

[JLB]

Well JLB, we can't know what other sins they committed. They were forbidden to remain in the garden and forced to go out into the world. Once there they very naturally sinned - they became just like we all are now after they ate of the fruit. They now knew good and evil. The sin nature entered into man.

Now, were they "sinners" in the way that you understand it?
I don't see how we could know. I kind of doubt it since they had spoken to God and knew their maker.
But they definitely sinned.

Wondering

How could Adam and Eve continue to "sin", when the only law they had was "do not eat of the tree", and the were now banished from the garden where both the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were?




JLB

 

[JLB]

Hi Chopper,
There's a problem with lists.
I have difficulty remembering everything on there.
We don't need a list.
We need Jesus' COMMANDMENTS.
Every other thing He said to do is covered by these commandments:
Mathew 22:37-39
Then Jesus said ALL THE LAW and the prophets hang on these two commandments.

Love covers all.
No need for lists.

Wondering

I have trouble remembering all the things on list's also.

Thank God He has given me His Spirit and written them upon my heart and mind.

I thank God for His Divine Nature within me.


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:1-4

The promise of His Son, and the promise of the Holy Spirit, are given to those who believe and obey the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1



JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I appreciate your sentiments. I like the list because it is like a fingerprint of Jesus that shows us His Nature. I like to know what a person likes and dislikes, that's all that is intended with the list. Jesus reveals so much more than the list in the beatitudes.

Hi Chopper
I know what you mean. I also was thinking, after I posted, that a list might come in handy for a new believer.
It's like when you get married. At first you have to tell each other what food you like, or what not to say to avoid an argument or 1000 other things. Then, after a while, you instinctively know what grates on the other person, what gets them upset - so you just know and don't do it.

BTW, I like the beatitudes a lot. Saves a lot of money on shrinks - Jesus was the best shrink of all!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I have trouble remembering all the things on list's also.

Thank God He has given me His Spirit and written them upon my heart and mind.

I thank God for His Divine Nature within me.

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 2 Peter 1:1-4

The promise of His Son, and the promise of the Holy Spirit, are given to those who believe and obey the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 1 John 5:1

JLB

JLB
You know how to crack the nut well.

With the spirit of God within and the law written on the heart, we need nothing else.

W

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
Your claim, that I was referring to, is your second pp.

Maybe the way I expressed it in my post didn't turn out right.

That's why I adjusted the sight. Not a problem

These are always difficult subjects and there are legitimate reasons they are difficult.

For example, in many of Choppers examples there is no mentions of the deceiver in operations in all these various sin constructs. Chopper only sees, like most do, the person. Never is the real adversary brought into the equations of judgments. And without an accurate view, judgment fails on every count.

 

[JLB]

For example, in many of Choppers examples there is no mentions of the deceiver in operations in all these various sin constructs. Chopper only sees, like most do, the person. Never is the real adversary brought into the equations of judgments. And without an accurate view, judgment fails on every count.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Where is the deceiver mentioned in this scripture?


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

How could Adam and Eve continue to "sin", when the only law they had was "do not eat of the tree", and the were now banished from the garden where both the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were?

JLB

Easy. Was it the only Law? Did not the law exist from the beginning? Or did it only come into being at Mt. Sinai?

Even atheists believe in the Natural Law. The natural law was given by God too. When Caine killed Abel was there a law that said: Thou shalt not kill? So how is it that God was so mad at Caine?

The Law was given at Mt. Sinai for two reasons (that I know of):

One was to show the Jews how to live well. How to live in a civil manner. What to do and not do in both the case of man and of God. They'd been in Egypt for 400 years and were slaves for the great part of those years so they didn't know anymore how to live in a free society. The rules had been forgotten.

The second reason was to show man that he was sinful. The Law revealed our sin. As you say many times. We could run the red light many times, but if someone doesn't tell us it's illegal - how could we know?

But even before it was written for us, God knew it, God created it, God knew what he wanted from man.
The natural law always existed.

So when Adam would get mad at Eve, it was sin in God's eyes and, I'm sure, he knew it in some way.
When I ran the red light, it was illegal even though I didn't know it. If a cop stopped me, I'd still have to pay the fine. Adam knew he had sinned, he hid from God. Do you think that was the last natural law he broke?
All fall short of the glory of God. Only Jesus didn't sin.

Don't you think Romans 1:18... would go to this?

Wondering

 

[smaller]

How could Adam and Eve continue to "sin", when the only law they had was "do not eat of the tree", and the were now banished from the garden where both the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were?
JLB

We know enough details from the Garden to make some accurate assessments.

We know the deceiver, symbolized/allegorized as a snake, was in the Garden. Was it GOOD that a deceiver was IN THE GARDEN? It was not a "real physical snake." Deception is an internal matter. I doubt very much that there was a physical tree that had fruit that granted "eternal life" either. This too is an allegory. Only God has the power to grant eternal life, not a physical tree. This too has to be a parable/allegory or we fall into polytheism. Both a physical tree and God, both with abilities to grant eternal life? Uh, no. It's an allegory.

Personally I think God could have pointed to any tree in the Garden to have the "knowledge" of good and evil. That knowledge was INSIDE Adam and Eve. But I might speculate that there was actually that tree, and it probably looked pretty nice as trees with fruit on it go. But did it contain "knowledge?" No. That knowledge was in them looking at it.

Not everything is as it appears on the surface in these matters.

 

[smaller]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Where is the deceiver mentioned in this scripture?
JLB

The deceiver has been judged and condemned from the beginning. John 8:44.

Yes, there will be a final accounting for these parties too. At the last judgment. They will all be put away where they belong. I might even call the LoF a form of anti-heaven for anti-Christ spirits. A place of permanent containment.

 

[GodsGrace]

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Where is the deceiver mentioned in this scripture?

JLB

Wait. What are you saying??
Are you saying evil doesn't come from satan?
John 8:44
2 Corinthians 2:11

John 8 is for non-believers. Just using it to show that satan is a deceiver and evil in every way.
2 Cor says we're always to be on the lookout for him so he doesn't outwit us. And, he roams the earth, seeking whom he will devour.

I think Smaller goes a bit too far for me in that sometimes it seems like we're possessed by the evil one; however, we can't deny that he does work evil in the world and is always trying to get us to sin. It's like there's a tug of war going on - they both would like to win.

But we already have the victory in Christ.

Wondering
P.S. Some believe satan doesn't exist. Just checking...

 

[smaller]

I think Smaller goes a bit too far for me in that sometimes it seems like we're possessed by the evil one;

I've never made such a claim. But many WILL hear that in their own minds.

IF we understand that temptations transpire internally, and that they are of the tempter, the math should be abundantly clear on every count.

Our flesh is contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. And it is so because of the presence of indwelling sin/evil present with us. There is no way to justify that working in anyone. That is why we rest on Gods Mercy and Grace in Christ Alone. We have no works to either justify or eradicate the sin indwelling the flesh or evil present with us. We contend with it and it's contrary to the Spirit. Eph. 6:12. And yes, it is demonic in nature. Our flesh is given to that situation. The body does die a factual death because of sin indwelling it and evil present with us. God is MERCIFUL in only allowing us a short time here in this hell hole of the flesh.

Believers are saved to the uttermost. But that doesn't encompass the whole equation. There are other activites going on of the evil kind in everyone. If we are honest with ourselves, we'll see it, and not deny that it's a reality of the sin indwelling the flesh/evil present. And we will both hate and condemn our own flesh because of these very real adverse operations therein. Paul saw this as the "wretched man" condition in Romans 7. He knew that the Promise of the Gospel is to obtain a NEW body that does not have these current issues. A Spiritual Body. Phil. 3:21.