Bible Study SO YOU THINK YOU ARE SAVED.

[GodsGrace]

We know enough details from the Garden to make some accurate assessments.

We know the deceiver, symbolized/allegorized as a snake, was in the Garden. Was it GOOD that a deceiver was IN THE GARDEN? It was not a "real physical snake." Deception is an internal matter. I doubt very much that there was a physical tree that had fruit that granted "eternal life" either. This too is an allegory. Only God has the power to grant eternal life, not a physical tree. This too has to be a parable/allegory or we fall into polytheism. Both a physical tree and God, both with abilities to grant eternal life? Uh, no. It's an allegory.

Personally I think God could have pointed to any tree in the Garden to have the "knowledge" of good and evil. That knowledge was INSIDE Adam and Eve. But I might speculate that there was actually that tree, and it probably looked pretty nice as trees with fruit on it go. But did it contain "knowledge?" No. That knowledge was in them looking at it.

Not everything is as it appears on the surface in these matters.

Does anyone think it's NOT an allegory?
But this is the only way we have to speak of it - use the same objects and persons as are in the allegory.
Of course it was to teach us something - and we do glean a lot from it, it does explain a lot.

Wondering

 

[JLB]

Easy. Was it the only Law? Did not the law exist from the beginning? Or did it only come into being at Mt. Sinai?

God's laws are eternal.

What He gave them, as innocent beings, was one thing, which was God's law to man.

Wait. What are you saying??
Are you saying evil doesn't come from satan?
John 8:44
2 Corinthians 2:11

John 8 is for non-believers. Just using it to show that satan is a deceiver and evil in every way.
2 Cor says we're always to be on the lookout for him so he doesn't outwit us. And, he roams the earth, seeking whom he will devour.

I think Smaller goes a bit too far for me in that sometimes it seems like we're possessed by the evil one; however, we can't deny that he does work evil in the world and is always trying to get us to sin. It's like there's a tug of war going on - they both would like to win.

But we already have the victory in Christ.

Wondering
P.S. Some believe satan doesn't exist. Just checking...

Of course Satan exist's.

He was a sinner from the beginning.

I personally believe he defiled and deceived, [with what came out of him,Mark 7:18-23] Eve who entertained dialog with him, and therefore she became polluted.

Never the less, we have been given the Spirit of God, and are responsible for the choices we make.

If we produce "thorns and briers", or if we produce "herbs and fruit", we will all give an account.


JLB

 

[Chopper]

How could Adam and Eve continue to "sin", when the only law they had was "do not eat of the tree", and the were now banished from the garden where both the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were?




JLB

Good point JLB. There must have been some rules that God made known at that time otherwise Cain and Abel wouldn't have known what was a proper sacrifice. I've always wondered at that. For 1,500 years from Adam to Moses, there was no Law that the people were accountable for and none of their faults were being recorded against them. See....
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[GodsGrace]

I've never made such a claim. But many WILL hear that in their own minds.

IF we understand that temptations transpire internally, and that they are of the tempter, the math should be abundantly clear on every count.

Our flesh is contrary to the Spirit. Gal. 5:17. And it is so because of the presence of indwelling sin/evil present with us. There is no way to justify that working in anyone. That is why we rest on Gods Mercy and Grace in Christ Alone. We have no works to either justify or eradicate the sin indwelling the flesh or evil present with us. We contend with it and it's contrary to the Spirit. Eph. 6:12. And yes, it is demonic in nature. Our flesh is given to that situation. The body does die a factual death because of sin indwelling it and evil present with us. God is MERCIFUL in only allowing us a short time here in this hell hole of the flesh.

Believers are saved to the uttermost. But that doesn't encompass the whole equation. There are other activites going on of the evil kind in everyone. If we are honest with ourselves, we'll see it, and not deny that it's a reality of the sin indwelling the flesh/evil present. And we will both hate and condemn our own flesh because of these very real adverse operations therein. Paul saw this as the "wretched man" condition in Romans 7. He knew that the Promise of the Gospel is to obtain a NEW body that does not have these current issues. A Spiritual Body. Phil. 3:21.

Smaller,
I said "sometimes it SEEMS like".
You never said what is in the rest of my sentence. You just come close to it.

For instance, I agree with all of the above but then you use these words that throw me off:

"Temptations transpire internally - they are of the tempter." Does this mean the tempter is IN me??
"The presence of indwelling sin/ evil". I'm not sure if you mean the evil one, or just the sin nature.
"It is demonic in nature." Satan is demonic - so it's him indwelling in us?
(my bolds)

See. This is why I say it SEEMS LIKE you're saying we're possessed. Because if satan is in us, that's what it would be. But he can't live where they Holy Spirit dwells - we've spoken of this. Mathew 12:44

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

God's laws are eternal.

What He gave them, as innocent beings, was one thing, which was God's law to man.

Of course Satan exist's.

He was a sinner from the beginning.

I personally believe he defiled and deceived, [with what came out of him,Mark 7:18-23] Eve who entertained dialog with him, and therefore she became polluted.

Never the less, we have been given the Spirit of God, and are responsible for the choices we make.

If we produce "thorns and briers", or if we produce "herbs and fruit", we will all give an account.

JLB

Whew! Okay. This is what I thought you believed. Re satan.
I'm good with the rest.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
I said "sometimes it SEEMS like".
You never said what is in the rest of my sentence. You just come close to it.

For instance, I agree with all of the above but then you use these words that throw me off:

"Temptations transpire internally - they are of the tempter." Does this mean the tempter is IN me??
"The presence of indwelling sin/ evil". I'm not sure if you mean the evil one, or just the sin nature.
"It is demonic in nature." Satan is demonic - so it's him indwelling in us?
(my bolds)

See. This is why I say it SEEMS LIKE you're saying we're possessed. Because if satan is in us, that's what it would be. But he can't live where they Holy Spirit dwells - we've spoken of this. Mathew 12:44

Wondering

Believers LOVE to justify their own flesh.

however

The flesh is contrary to the Spirit. As such it can not be justified for any reasons. Gal. 5:17

Coverups are also demonically inspired. It is the working of sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us. Believers LOVE to cover this fact, and to justify that which is and remains contrary to the Spirit when the opposite is meant to transpire. And in doing so, such are being pawned and gamed by their own flesh and the workings therein. Vainly trying to define the entirety of themselves as only God like.

Reality stands though. The flesh is against the Spirit and contrary to the Spirit. It can not be justified because of the presence of indwelling sin and evil present with us, which is in fact demonically sourced.

Believers will always have a hard time condemning their own contrary flesh. And will instead love that which is contrary and justify that which is contrary to and against the Spirit.

It is a very hard turn to make for those who have lived in this type of false justification.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good point JLB. There must have been some rules that God made known at that time otherwise Cain and Abel wouldn't have known what was a proper sacrifice. I've always wondered at that. For 1,500 years from Adam to Moses, there was no Law that the people were accountable for and none of their faults were being recorded against them. See....
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Chopper,
Your above is for JLB but you have me confused.
What do you mean by your underlined sentence?
People were saved by faith, as in Hebrews 11.
Then Romans 5:14 says they did not sin in the similitude of Adam's transgression, meaning their sin was different than Adam's but it was still sin.
Impute means to hold responsible. Were the people of old not responsible for their sins?
Were they waiting in Abraham's bossom?
God was mad at the inhabitants of Sodom.
He was mad at Caine.
He was mad at all those in the flood.
Please explain.

Wondering

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper
I know what you mean. I also was thinking, after I posted, that a list might come in handy for a new believer.
It's like when you get married. At first you have to tell each other what food you like, or what not to say to avoid an argument or 1000 other things. Then, after a while, you instinctively know what grates on the other person, what gets them upset - so you just know and don't do it.

BTW, I like the beatitudes a lot. Saves a lot of money on shrinks - Jesus was the best shrink of all!

Wondering

Ha Ha! sometimes you crack me up. That was my point exactly. I like how you put it. I sure hope no one thinks that I've referred to the Law given to Moses has anything to do with our Salvation, because it's not!! Quite a while ago, I studied the 10 Commandments along with the Beatitudes and found similarity there. It's almost like Jesus was giving us the Grace side of the 10 Commandments.

These Commandments given by Moses, as many have said, leads to death. It's almost as if they were commands of death as it turned out for Israel. Now, I see the 10 Commandments as life for us because they flow from the Nature of God. I've used this phrase "fingerprints" because Elohim left His mark of Who He is for us to follow. FOLLOW, not to obtain righteousness.

Just like you said about the marriage bond at first. We have to know what our Mate likes and dislikes. The Father and His Son has given us their likes and dislikes for us to follow as His Children.

Thanks for your reply, I always like to read and ponder your statements. They show me that you have a very good grasp of God's Word and that comes by a lot of study. Good for you, I respect that very much....

Shh, don't tell anyone, I love you!! :kiss

 

[GodsGrace]

Believers LOVE to justify their own flesh.

however

The flesh is contrary to the Spirit. As such it can not be justified for any reasons. Gal. 5:17

Coverups are also demonically inspired. It is the working of sin indwelling the flesh and evil present with us. Believers LOVE to cover this fact, and to justify that which is and remains contrary to the Spirit when the opposite is meant to transpire. And in doing so, such are being pawned and gamed by their own flesh and the workings therein. Vainly trying to define the entirety of themselves as only God like.

Reality stands though. The flesh is against the Spirit and contrary to the Spirit. It can not be justified because of the presence of indwelling sin and evil present with us, which is in fact demonically sourced.

Believers will always have a hard time condemning their own contrary flesh. And will instead love that which is contrary and justify that which is contrary to and against the Spirit.

It is a very hard turn to make for those who have lived in this type of false justification.

The flesh is contrary to the spirit. True.
No one here is trying to justify.
But the fact that you do not DENY what I wrote in my post no. 324, which is plainly stated and leaves nothing to the imagination, means that you agree with what I wrote.

Right?
Make believe you're in a courtroom and are instructed to answer with a Yes or No.

You know what Jesus said. Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No.
Mathew 5:37

W

 

[GodsGrace]

Ha Ha! sometimes you crack me up. That was my point exactly. I like how you put it. I sure hope no one thinks that I've referred to the Law given to Moses has anything to do with our Salvation, because it's not!! Quite a while ago, I studied the 10 Commandments along with the Beatitudes and found similarity there. It's almost like Jesus was giving us the Grace side of the 10 Commandments.

These Commandments given by Moses, as many have said, leads to death. It's almost as if they were commands of death as it turned out for Israel. Now, I see the 10 Commandments as life for us because they flow from the Nature of God. I've used this phrase "fingerprints" because Elohim left His mark of Who He is for us to follow. FOLLOW, not to obtain righteousness.

Just like you said about the marriage bond at first. We have to know what our Mate likes and dislikes. The Father and His Son has given us their likes and dislikes for us to follow as His Children.

Thanks for your reply, I always like to read and ponder your statements. They show me that you have a very good grasp of God's Word and that comes by a lot of study. Good for you, I respect that very much....

Shh, don't tell anyone, I love you!! :kiss

It'll be our little secret Chopper.
Mum's the word...

I truly doubt anyone here thinks you mean that keeping the commandments is what saves us.

We'd all be lost!!!

I love you too.

Wondering

 

[smaller]

The flesh is contrary to the spirit. True.
No one here is trying to justify.
But the fact that you do not DENY what I wrote in my post no. 324, which is plainly stated and leaves nothing to the imagination, means that you agree with what I wrote.

Right?
Make believe you're in a courtroom and are instructed to answer with a Yes or No.

You know what Jesus said. Let your Yes be Yes and your No be No.
Mathew 5:37

W

The activity of the tempter DOES transpire in the flesh. And YES, condemned to the uttermost.

 

[JLB]

Whew! Okay. This is what I thought you believed. Re satan.
I'm good with the rest.

What was violated, that caused Adam and Eve to become deceived, and transgress God's law was they did not fulfill there purpose that God spoke to them.

The first words spoken to Mankind, which includes us, as we were contained within the loins of Adam when God said.....

Be fruitful and multiply, subdue the earth and have dominion...

The same Lord said the same thing as He restored man's authority to subdue and have dominion...

ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND EARTH HAS BEEN GIVEN TO ME...

Go therefore....

Go into all the world and preach the Gospel.... Make disciples.

I give you power over All the power of the enemy.

The original purpose has been restored to man who obeys the Gospel of the Kingdom.

Abiding in Christ is the work of being fruitful.

Making disciples is the work of multiplying.

The goal is:

The kingdoms of this world becoming the kingdoms of our Lord.

So that.... The knowledge of the glory of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea....

 

[Chopper]

Chopper,
Your above is for JLB but you have me confused.
What do you mean by your underlined sentence?
People were saved by faith, as in Hebrews 11.
Then Romans 5:14 says they did not sin in the similitude of Adam's transgression, meaning their sin was different than Adam's but it was still sin.
Impute means to hold responsible. Were the people of old not responsible for their sins?
Were they waiting in Abraham's bossom?
God was mad at the inhabitants of Sodom.
He was mad at Caine.
He was mad at all those in the flood.
Please explain.

Wondering

Good questions. The underlined "sin is not inputed when there is no law" means that for the period of 1,500 years, people were sinning but their sins were not being recorded in heaven against them. After the Commandments came thru Moses, all people were responsible to not break them, if they did, it was recorded in heaven against them. Impute in this case means to record.

Adams sin effected the whole human race where the people after him, their sin was personal. Still sin, but not being held against them.

I said before, that I wondered what rules God laid down for the first 15 hundred years before the 10 Commandments were given. I doubt that anyone knows. What ever the rules were, there was unbridled wickedness in Sodom as well as prior to the flood.

 

[Malachi]

Impute means to hold responsible. Were the people of old not responsible for their sins?

Before the Law was given, Israel (and mankind) would know that they were sinning only through their conscience. Once the Law of given, each one would know the precise charge that God would bring against them at their judgement.

In the absence of specific laws, the conscience is the guide (Rom 2:11-16). But once there are specific laws and penalties, charges are laid based upon those laws. This is true for civil and criminal laws, as well as moral and spiritual laws. As far as God is concerned, the WHOLE WORLD is guilty before God (Rom 3:19). Therefore God now commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

 

[ezrider]

Good point JLB. There must have been some rules that God made known at that time otherwise Cain and Abel wouldn't have known what was a proper sacrifice. I've always wondered at that. For 1,500 years from Adam to Moses, there was no Law that the people were accountable for and none of their faults were being recorded against them. See....

Two points:

Cain and Abel came after Adam and Eve ate. So once they ate of the tree of Knowledge, all the rules were made known unto them. It was the tree of Knowledge, their eyes were open. Like Pandora's Box, once you take the lid off, there is no going back.

As for your comment about the people not being accountable if there was no law, then how would you explain the Flood of Noah? Or how about the judgement that came upon Sodom and Gomorrah?


While their sins were not imputed unto them, it seems to me that God still Judged the nations because of wickedness. But even at that, their sin was not after the similitude of Adam's transgression. It is the sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression that we are held accountable for, the sins of the flesh are not held to our account, but they do come with consequences that we each must bare.

From Adam to Moses there was no law and their sins were not accounted unto them. From Moses till Jesus the tribes of Israel were under the Law. From Jesus till now, the new covenant has made the law obsolete, and where there is no law, their sins are not accounted unto them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good questions. The underlined "sin is not inputed when there is no law" means that for the period of 1,500 years, people were sinning but their sins were not being recorded in heaven against them. After the Commandments came thru Moses, all people were responsible to not break them, if they did, it was recorded in heaven against them. Impute in this case means to record.

Adams sin effected the whole human race where the people after him, their sin was personal. Still sin, but not being held against them.

I said before, that I wondered what rules God laid down for the first 15 hundred years before the 10 Commandments were given. I doubt that anyone knows. What ever the rules were, there was unbridled wickedness in Sodom as well as prior to the flood.

Personal sin.
Will be looking into that.
Thanks!

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

Before the Law was given, Israel (and mankind) would know that they were sinning only through their conscience. Once the Law of given, each one would know the precise charge that God would bring against them at their judgement.

In the absence of specific laws, the conscience is the guide (Rom 2:11-16). But once there are specific laws and penalties, charges are laid based upon those laws. This is true for civil and criminal laws, as well as moral and spiritual laws. As far as God is concerned, the WHOLE WORLD is guilty before God (Rom 3:19). Therefore God now commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30).

Thanks to you too!
This is so good.
What you call conscience, I've been calling the natural law.

Wondering
P.S. I think you just explained personal sin.

 

[GodsGrace]

Two points:

Cain and Abel came after Adam and Eve ate. So once they ate of the tree of Knowledge, all the rules were made known unto them. It was the tree of Knowledge, their eyes were open. Like Pandora's Box, once you take the lid off, there is no going back.

As for your comment about the people not being accountable if there was no law, then how would you explain the Flood of Noah? Or how about the judgement that came upon Sodom and Gomorrah?

While their sins were not imputed unto them, it seems to me that God still Judged the nations because of wickedness. But even at that, their sin was not after the similitude of Adam's transgression. It is the sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression that we are held accountable for, the sins of the flesh are not held to our account, but they do come with consequences that we each must bare.

From Adam to Moses there was no law and their sins were not accounted unto them. From Moses till Jesus the tribes of Israel were under the Law. From Jesus till now, the new covenant has made the law obsolete, and where there is no law, their sins are not accounted unto them.

Hi EZ
All good.
Could you expound a bit on the "similitude" of Adam's transgression.
Doesn't this just mean that Adam's sin was different from ALL future sin because it was directly prohibited by God to him?
Or any other way you want to explain it.

Wondering

 

[RevSRE]

Where is the deceiver mentioned in this scripture?JLB

JLB the deciever is found in Satan's answer to God in the first of the book.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From where come you? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.
THE second is Rev12:9
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So from the Garden with EVE to the time Satan is cast out of heaven his office is to deceive men. It is all he has left to do!

 

[JLB]

JLB the deciever is found in Satan's answer to God in the first of the book.
Job 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From where come you? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.
THE second is Rev12:9
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, who deceives the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
So from the Garden with EVE to the time Satan is cast out of heaven his office is to deceive men. It is all he has left to do!

Yes. Agreed.

Satan is a deceiver.


JLB