Bible Study SO YOU THINK YOU ARE SAVED.

[GodsGrace]

Hi Smaller,
Sorry I never got back to you. It's too off-topic. (post no. 82)
I'll just post this:
Philippians 2:1-14
Philippians 3:12-16
Philippians 4:8

Wondering

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm back...."Consequences. Lets look at this important Scripture which is the foundation of my thoughts here....
Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

So you think you are saved? The reality of these Scriptures are, if we can go on sinning without any repercussions, then chances are, we are not saved. At this point, I imagine that there will be a lot of posts about the process of sinning. How much sin constitutes a lifestyle of sin, and therefore not saved. JLB has, in the past, posted a lot of important teachings in this area. He has mentioned Romans 7 & 8 as dealing with our new nature not to sin. Hopefully he will add some information.

I have used marriage and divorce as a main example and I don't want anyone to think I'm looking down on anyone who has gone thru the heart wrenching tragedy of a divorce. I'm simply pointing out a sin against God's joining two people in marriage, and man breaking that bond, and the consequences of that act.

I'll leave the marriage example and move on to the 10 Commandments of God, and the Commands of Jesus the Son of God in Matthew Chapter 5.

To be continued....

Hi Chopper,
Could you please explain this in more detail:
So you think you are saved? The reality of these Scriptures are, if we can go on sinning without any repercussions, then chances are, we are not saved.

Even to non-believers there are consequences to not following God's laws and also repercussions, which I think is the same thing.

So what do you mean? Are the repercussions different for a believer?

Wondering

 

[reba]

If we just THINK a sin - are there consequences?

a sinful thoughts flashes across ones mind.. A simple covetous thought about the neighbours new car... You check yourself stop the thought and tell them how nice the car is.. or do we ponder the thought in our heart ... walk away grumbling to our selves,,,,, I do not believe the 'passing ' thought is sin.. we can make it sin...

Are the repercussions different for a believer?

Wondering

I believe so because we "know" ,,
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

 

[smaller]

There is no avoiding the consequences of sin.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

People very often read the first part and think it doesn't apply because of the balance of the statement. Both sides of that equation are and remain true. Yes, the wages of sin is death. How do we know? Paul delineates this here, again:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

There is no changing that consequence.

 

[smaller]

a sinful thoughts flashes across ones mind.. A simple covetous thought about the neighbours new car... You check yourself stop the thought and tell them how nice the car is.. or do we ponder the thought in our heart ... walk away grumbling to our selves,,,,, I do not believe the 'passing ' thought is sin.. we can make it sin...

Jesus called "evil thoughts" for what they are. They are both evil and defiling. And, as such, yes, they would quite logically be "sin in thought" as such thoughts are evil and defiling.

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23 are all direct Words of God that show the thoughts of evil are evil, defiling and SIN, particularly the first one.

Most brush this off, not thinking they are of any consequence, but that is not the scriptural case. They are evil and they are defiling and in the case of Matt. 5:28 it's adultery, a sin, in the heart.

In my great days as a "sin hunter" seeking to eradicate every sin in my life, which in my heady modern day Pharisee mindset I was QUITE successful at, just like the religious fluke in Luke 18 who thought he was not like other men because he did this and that...or to the effect of "I am not a sinner like them OTHER sinners" I eventually had to confront my "random evil thoughts" as you stated above.

Yes, they are quite random. They come out of nowhere. They blind side a person. And yes, everyone has these evil thoughts, which are DEFILING. It was at this point that I realized there was no escaping the conclusion of being a factual sinner. Period.

So all this hoo haa about performances and consequences for sin is not going to avoid the consequences of sin, which is the death of the body of flesh. No matter how good we perform, the body does die because of sin.

BUT, the GIFT of God in Christ is eternal life.

Both sides of the equations are true and factual. No one is going to make themselves any more acceptable in their dead because of sin body.

I might even add that there are even more DIRE consequences for not being honest about being a sinner. And that is to be turned into a lying hypocrite. The very things that Jesus HATED the most.

Jesus pronounced WOE to hypocrites EIGHT TIMES in the N.T. The practice of hypocrisy is called vile villany in Isaiah 32:6.

The first dictate from Jesus to His disciples is to beware of HYPOCRISY.

Luke 12:1
In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

The infamous BEAM or LOG in the eye is what? Yeah, hypocrisy.

The subjects of sin and trying to claim sinlessness in any form is the basis of hypocrisy and eventually turns people into LIARS.

1 Timothy 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

Some people couldn't be honest about sin or being a sinner if their eternal life depended on it. They will try every time to be the opposite.

 

[Edward]

a sinful thoughts flashes across ones mind.. A simple covetous thought about the neighbours new car... You check yourself stop the thought and tell them how nice the car is.. or do we ponder the thought in our heart ... walk away grumbling to our selves,,,,, I do not believe the 'passing ' thought is sin.. we can make it sin...

I agree Sister.
Anyone can have a sinful thought enter their mind. It's not sin at this point though. It's what we do with the thought that counts. Paul tells us what to do with these thoughts...

2 Corinthians 10:5
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;/

We are to cast down these thoughts and put them out of our mind.

If we don't...and we dwell on the thought, allowing ourselves to think upon it...WHOOSH, it goes into our heart and becomes a part of us (sin).

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:.../
Proverbs 23:7

 

[for_his_glory]

Grace is defined in Scripture. ...."the kindness and love of God, our Savior, toward man"....(Titus 3:4). .........Grace is according to the measure of the gift of Christ. (Eph. 2:7) The one word that would best describe grace is "Salvation", But no man can know what grace is until man see's himself in his true sinful nature. Until then, it is just another word in the Bible.

What was being asked was is the actual words, unmerited favor, found in scripture and the answer is no, but the words kindness, love and gift of God are actually used in scripture. We use the Greek definition to show what grace means as unmerited favor of God even though we do not deserve it.

 

[smaller]

I agree Sister.
Anyone can have a sinful thought enter their mind. It's not sin at this point though. It's what we do with the thought that counts. Paul tells us what to do with these thoughts...

2 Corinthians 10:5
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;/

We are to cast down these thoughts and put them out of our mind.

If we don't...and we dwell on the thought, allowing ourselves to think upon it...WHOOSH, it goes into our heart and becomes a part of us (sin).

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:.../
Proverbs 23:7

I would consider the Words of Jesus on matters of evil thoughts being evil and defiling before I just brushed off "evil sin thoughts" and not calling them as Jesus called them, evil defiling sin.

To say otherwise I would consider to be a working of sin itself, denying that it is such. The notion that "my evil/wicked sin thoughts are NOT a sin, are NOT evil, are NOT defiling" is a direct affront to the truth about the matters that Jesus said here:

Matt. 5:28, Matt. 15:19-20 and Mark 7:21-23

IF anyone says otherwise, they have been deceived by sin and are making the OPPOSING or OPPOSITE position than what Jesus gave us in His Word.

In the O.T. there is a PROMISE that Jesus would MAGNIFY the LAW.

When Jesus said the mere thought of adultery was ADULTERY IN HEART, He magnified that LAW, pinpointing SIN to the mere thoughts of same.

To say otherwise is to put ones self at ODDS with Gods Words.

 

[Chopper]

Hi Chopper,
Could you please explain this in more detail:
So you think you are saved? The reality of these Scriptures are, if we can go on sinning without any repercussions, then chances are, we are not saved.

Even to non-believers there are consequences to not following God's laws and also repercussions, which I think is the same thing.

So what do you mean? Are the repercussions different for a believer?

Wondering

You are right, in that the consequences are the same for unbelievers as they are for believers. The difference is, unbelievers get as their consequence, the Lake of Fire. The believer, eventually get loss of rewards in the Kingdom. There are, I suppose many questions that could arise from my statement like, If I endure the spanking from the Lord for sins that I committed, would I then loose rewards later? Probably only in the fact that while I was sinning, I could have done a good work for the Lord and gain a reward. That reward would be lost because of my sin.

 

[Chopper]

"I say all of this to say CONSEQUENCES"

Chopper, I am sorry, but I do not agree with your reasoning here. You are suggestion that all these things befell them because they "sinned." Perhaps it was, or perhaps it was just coincidence. As I was reading your comment I kept thinking about the scripture about the tower that fell on some people and killed them.

Luke 13:1-5
There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Now I know absolutely nothing about marriage counseling, nor have I ever really counseled anyone for that matter; but I have been divorced, so I've been through the experience, and now have knowledge of divorce first hand: And yet His Grace is greater. Consequence? There would have been consequences either way.

But there is something that you said, or rather something that you did that I hope you might consider with me: "I told them there would be consequences."

You told them there would be consequences. Many many years ago while I was still married, my wife at the time had blamed me for cursing her. That by my spoken words I had caused God's curse to come upon her. Well that bothered me, but I have thought upon that statement, could I have caused God's curse to come upon someone? Well, I was much less mature in my Faith back then as I am now, but the idea about bringing the curse upon someone has taken a much deeper sense. Through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, we have been set free from the curse of the law, Jesus being made a curse for us (Galatians 3:13).

John 8:7-11
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last:and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus said neither do I condemn you: go and sin no more. Jesus did not say go and sin no more, or there will be consequences.

John 5:44-47
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words.

Now I can only base this on the example that you have given, so this is not meant to be anything other than an observation about this one example. So with that in mind, if you will recall my earlier post in this thread where I asked about legalism, or law versus grace. In the example that you give, you counseled from a standpoint of the law, and not one of grace. You counseled on what is sinful according to the law, and as with the law, you informed them of the consequences for sinning against the law. So now I ask you to consider, did you counsel them away from trusting to their faith in the Lord, or did you instead bring them back under the law, and by consequences, the curse of the law.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:6-10
For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit,
and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the Lord thy Redeemer.
For this is as the waters of Noah unto me:
for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth;
so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
For the mountains shall depart,
and the hills be removed;
but my kindness shall not depart from thee,
neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed,
saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee.

Revelation 22:3
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him.

I hope I haven't rambled on too long. But if I am dead to the law through Christ, why would I then try and bring someone back under the curse from which I have been set free. Consequences, why there are always consequences. Did you plant a seed of doubt in their faith in Christ's salvation by instructing them in the consequences of God's curse, and therefore their troubles befell them? Again, who is to say. Who knows how the story might have turned out had you blessed them instead, asked them to search their hearts for the Lord's will, and bid them to remain strong in the faith as new troubles will surely arrive as they walk away from old ones? Go, and sin no more.

.

Ez my good friend. I can't help but think that you believe that we, as Believers in Jesus the Son of God Who abolished the Law as a way to righteousness, is null and void as any use in the Believers life in this age of Grace. I have said several times that the Law given to Moses as the only way that righteousness could be counted as, what we call today, Salvation. This is not so for those who have been saved by faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the source of our Salvation, not the Law of Moses.

Now, having said that, you are implying that I'm doing something wrong because I go the God's Commands, Statues, and Laws in my counseling by saying to a person "don't steal" or "don't desire sex with your neighbors wife" or any other of God's Commands. That simply is not true. You need to realize that I'm using God's Commands as a standard for a holy life, not Salvation. I do not throw out the Commands of God or His Son and just pick up "if it feels good, do it".

Remember what Jesus said....
1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

 

[Chopper]

As we continue in this thread, I want to post a Scripture that will be my focus for this section....
Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Now, what do some of you think this means, that I have put in bold and underlined?

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi FHG

I'll be reading your site tomorrow morning. It's late here.
Of course, I didn't mean my question to be personal. I was hoping you'd explain your understanding of the difference between what Jesus said about divorce and what Paul said about divorce with the unequally yoked. Jesus never mentioned this. I know many couples who are such, and they get along fine. I know couples who are both christian and they have real problems. I mean, IS IT okay to leave one that is unequally yoked? Or do we make an effort and stay in the marriage as a witness?
This is a general question and should not be taken personally. If your experience doesn't make this possible, then I apologize and please don't answer.

Wondering

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

These two verses show that if a man/woman puts away his/her spouse they need a written divorce. If he/she puts away the other and does not have a written divorce than that is what causes he/she to commit adultery with another. Put away and divorce are two different things as put away means to walk away from the marriage without divorcing. Divorcing makes it alright to remarry again. If I had known at the time of my first two marriages about being equally yoked I would have never married either one. I was very young in the Lord at the time and had very little knowledge. Being equally yoked whether you are a Christian or not the both need to be as one flesh and always try to work out any problems.

 

[for_his_glory]

There is no avoiding the consequences of sin.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

People very often read the first part and think it doesn't apply because of the balance of the statement. Both sides of that equation are and remain true. Yes, the wages of sin is death. How do we know? Paul delineates this here, again:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

There is no changing that consequence.

The wages of sin is death as in not having that fellowship with God. Like Adam who sinned against God did not literally die, but the fellowship he had with God died at that moment. The body is dead (without fellowship) but as one who seeks after Christ also allows the Holy Spirit guide them into all of Gods way as we are to know the mind of Christ and no more conform to this world.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

(cross reference)
Proverbs 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:
Proverbs 3:12 For whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
Proverbs 3:13 Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding.

Just as a father corrects his children with a loving heart for his child so is God as our heavenly Father corrects His children. I would never grieve over correction from God as it make me happy for His wisdom and understanding that gives me a greater Spiritual growth and draws me even closer to all His truths in learning what He has already spoken to us in His word.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What Jethro says is very disconcerting to me. If you love God you want to keep His commandments MORE not less!

And thus the point of the thread. Why doesn't the church love God????
Perhaps the 'church' is not really the church they think they are.

Now, having said that, you are implying that I'm doing something wrong because I go the God's Commands, Statues, and Laws in my counseling by saying to a person "don't steal" or "don't desire sex with your neighbors wife" or any other of God's Commands. That simply is not true. You need to realize that I'm using God's Commands as a standard for a holy life, not Salvation. I do not throw out the Commands of God or His Son and just pick up "if it feels good, do it".

Remember what Jesus said....
1John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The wages of sin is death as in not having that fellowship with God. Like Adam who sinned against God did not literally die, but the fellowship he had with God died at that moment.

But surely that death includes the second death, don't you agree? The wages of sin includes the second death.

Hebrews 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Now, what do some of you think this means, that I have put in bold and underlined?

Don't be discouraged by the chastening of the Lord. That chastening shows you belong to God as a son, not a stranger for whom God has no obligation to train up as one of his own.

What do you think of Mathew 5:19, Mathew 5:22 and Mathew 5:28

I'm referring to your first sentence saying that we come under the law when we break it.
Is this what Jesus taught?

Without the forgiveness of Jesus, yes, we are subject to the damnation of the law for breaking it. Jesus speaks at length about unfaithful servants going to the place of weeping and gnashing of teeth because of their unrepentant, evil lives.

Is wanting to do something the same as doing it in God's eyes?

It depends.
God decides that according to the mitigating circumstances one is in, if there are any.

Do we sin in thought?

I'm 'wondering'....are you asking this because you think the law does not legislate how we think?

If we just THINK a sin - are there consequences?

I'm sure any Spirit-filled Christian can testify that it is impossible to fellowship with God through the Holy Spirit while full of unholy thoughts.
Perhaps many Christians don't realize this because they aren't very practiced at living in and enjoying the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit in their daily lives(?) IOW, they don't miss fellowship with God when they're doing and thinking sinful things because they really don't enjoy that in the first place anyway that they could somehow sense when he isn't there because of evil behavior and thoughts.

 

[smaller]

The wages of sin is death as in not having that fellowship with God.

This is the factual state of every believer regarding our "body" and "sin." This does not keep us from fellowship.

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

We should readily be able to perceive the above. We are honest and truthful in that sight. That is honest fellowship. NOT deceitful lying hypocrisy fellowship, which is no fellowship whatsoever.

Like Adam who sinned against God did not literally die, but the fellowship he had with God died at that moment.

Literal physical death is not the measure of the body being dead because of sin. Most will disagree with Paul about the conditions of the natural body of Adam that is depicted in detail by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:43-49. Paul tells us there that Adam, Gods son, was planted in a natural body that was dishonorable, corrupt and weak. It is DEAD because of sin. These are "always" the states of the natural body. I would note Jesus as the sole exception to these matters because there was no sin in Him.

The body is dead (without fellowship) but as one who seeks after Christ also allows the Holy Spirit guide them into all of Gods way as we are to know the mind of Christ and no more conform to this world.

That does not change the facts of having a body that is dead because of sin. The two are unrelated. ALL bodies are dead because of sin, believer or unbeliever. It has nothing to do with fellowship. I might even say if we claim we don't have a body that is dead because of sin, we are not truthful before God in Christ, to ourselves or to others, and can't be.

We are instead lying hypocrites, claiming fellowship.

Paul hammers this point home in many ways:

Romans 7:9
For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

We might even note that it was from concupiscence thoughts against the law in Paul's mind that MADE him understand this principle of sin indwelling the flesh being against the law, proven by evil defiling thoughts. Romans 7:7-13. Yes, THOUGHTS were sufficient to prove the case.

Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

It is sin in the flesh that will refuse this matter of fact every single time, and causes "believers" to see it otherwise. Yes, the body IS dead because of sin. There is no way around it.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Put away and divorce are two different things as put away means to walk away from the marriage without divorcing. Divorcing makes it alright to remarry again.

What support do you have for this doctrine?
Unless you can convince me, I do not accept this at all.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This is the factual state of every believer regarding our "body" and "sin." This does not keep us from fellowship.

Unrepentant, unconfessed sin keeps us out of manifest, felt fellowship with Jesus and the Father:

"21“He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.” 23 ...“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him."
10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love. 11“These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full."
(John 14:21,23 NASB, John 15:10-11 NASB)

The condition for enjoying God's presence and having his joy (the fruit of the Spirit) to the full in you is that you love Him as evidenced by your obedience to his commandments. But so many in the church think we have this manifest love of God even when we are disobedient because, as they say, it would be works to think otherwise. What a horrible misunderstanding of Paul's works gospel.

 

[for_his_glory]

What support do you have for this doctrine?
Unless you can convince me, I do not accept this at all.

Mat 5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat 5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

vs 31 Jesus said if you put away (leave) your wife then you need to give her a written divorce. If you do this then you also need to do that.

 

[smaller]

Unrepentant, unconfessed sin keeps us out of manifest, felt fellowship with Jesus and the Father:

Simple test number 1:

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

True or not?

Simple test number 2:

Does this fact change about our body after faith in Christ?

Yes or no?