Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[francisdesales]

A relationship that Christ secures Himself, for eternity, without fear that it can be "lost" because it was not "gained" on our strength in the first place, but on His.

Christ secures a relationship with us Himself, without us? That is not how I read the Bible, OT or NT. God allows His People to fail, fall away. He gives them the grace and opportunity to repent, but sometimes, they don't. Man has free will. "IF ONLY THEY WOULD TURN TO ME", He states in Psalm 81!

The idea that salvation was never gained to begin with is spurious at best, deceptive and illogical at worse. You can never know you were "born again", with that attitude - since someday in the future, you may fall away. Then, all your OSAS brothers will be accusing you of "never have been saved to begin with".

Regards

 

[Deborah13]

The doctrine of presumption is a bondage, as well, Deborah. We must be careful in not taking either extreme to heart.Regards

Walking in grace produces the fruit of the Spirit. The desire to do the will of the Father grows as we grow in faith and by responding to Him.

Law is good and glorious and has a good purpose. But it was never intended to give life.

I also believe we have the free will to choose our behaviors. God gave us this right, if we are wise we choose Him and His life.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Christ secures a relationship with us Himself, without us? That is not how I read the Bible, OT or NT.

Then I would submit that you haven't read it with understanding.

John 6 NASB
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Jude
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. [Emphasis added]
​

God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

John 10
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one."
​

Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their clasped hands. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son? Anticipating your protest, no, we are not able to "crawl out," nor would we want to. Really? Do you want to lose your salvation? What a bogus concept!

Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Ephesians 4
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
​

If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be for the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. Again, the idea of "losing" one's salvation is ludicrous and not biblically supported.

Romans 8
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit. You read passages that speak of perseverance and automatically believe they refer to "doing" right rather than the truth of those passages, which urge us to stay on course so as not to damage our witness. Making them about "doing" is a lie of man. They speak, rather, of remaining in a godly life, not to "keep hold" of a salvation you had nothing to do with receiving -- even your "open mind" was opened by the Holy Spirit the day you believed -- but to stay on a course of Christlikeness, first to not be tempted to act as the world and thus make yourself irrelevant to ministry, and two, to actively take part in that ministry. If you live like hell, the world won't notice you are heaven bound.

Again, the "teaching" that one can lose one's salvation is a ludicrous invention of Satan, and must be opposed at every turn.

 

[Deborah13]

It's much more than being addressed to those who "totally reject the blood of Christ". A person can live a life of sin WHILE claiming to believe in God and Christ's superior work on the cross. What did 1st John say about those who claim to love Christ but not their neighbor? Liars. Does Paul think liars will inherit the Kingdom?

Being a believer is much more than a simple intellectual assent to some abstract ideas. Belief, according to Scriptures, must be LIVED. Regards

I agree with you this person would definitely be a liar and a hypocrite to boot. If they were being honest they would have to believe that they had lost their salvation in order not to be a liar, would they not? And they would have to stop claiming to be a Christian, no pretending allowed.

Being born again is a change of heart and attitude about life and how it's lived. There follows the friut of the Spirit, does it not?

 

[gr8grace]

Then I would submit that yhou haven't read it with understanding.

John 6 NASB
35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life ; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.
36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

Jude
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. [Emphasis added]
​

God's power is able to keep the believer from falling. It is up to Him, not us, to present us before His glorious presence. Our eternal security is a result of God keeping us, not us maintaining our own salvation.

John 10
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish ; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all ; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 "I and the Father are one."
​

Both Jesus and the Father have us firmly grasped in their clasped hands. Who could possibly separate us from the grip of both the Father and the Son? Anticipating your protest, no, we are not able to "crawl out," nor would we want to. Really? Do you want to lose your salvation? What a bogus concept!

Ephesians 1
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
Ephesians 4
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
​

If believers did not have eternal security, the sealing could not truly be unto the day of redemption, but only to the day of sinning, apostasy, or disbelief. Again, the idea of "losing" one's salvation is ludicrous and not biblically supported.

Romans 8
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Our eternal security is based on God's love for those whom He has redeemed. Our eternal security is purchased by Christ, promised by the Father, and sealed by the Holy Spirit. You read passages that speak of perseverance and automatically believe they refer to "doing" right rather than the truth, with is staying on course. Making them about "doing" is a lie of man. They speak, rather, of remaining in a godly life, not to "keep hold" of a salvation you had nothing to do with receiving -- even your "open mind" was opened by the Holy Spirit the day you believed -- but to stay on a course of Christlikeness, first to not be tempted to act as the world and thus make yourself irrelevant to ministry, and two, to actively take part in that ministry. If you live like hell, the world won't notice you are heaven bound.

Again, the "teaching" that one can lose one's salvation is a ludicrous invention of Satan, and must be opposed at every turn.

Agreed! Eternal security is one of the strongest footholds in The Christian Life. It Is a major Part of our HOPE. If we do not believe it, our flesh takes over and has to try to keep one saved. It will be a hopeless and miserable Christian life, not to mention the consequences from our Lord for the believer that teaches otherwise.

John 5:24 Is the verse Jesus used to inform Christians that they have eternal security and this verse is The verse to Go to for that doctrine, if one has a doubt.

"truly,truly" is Jesus very emphatically saying," Listen to this very closely and make sure to take heed, because the Kingdom of darkness is going to attack what I am about to say!"

WHOEVER believes has eternal life......does NOT come into Judgement( no maybe,no if, but EMPHATICALLY does NOT!)

Eternal security is an unbreakable relationship, because it depends entirely on who and what God is, never on who and what we are. Grace always depends on God’s divine policy in dealing with us as believers. Your weaknesses cannot cancel God’s strength. Your failures cannot nullify or reduce in any way the integrity of God.

 

[Deborah13]

Agreed! Eternal security is one of the strongest footholds in The Christian Life. It Is a major Part of our HOPE. If we do not believe it, our flesh takes over and has to try to keep one saved. It will be a hopeless and miserable Christian life, not to mention the consequences from our Lord for the believer that teaches otherwise.

John 5:24 Is the verse Jesus used to inform Christians that they have eternal security and this verse is The verse to Go to for that doctrine, if one has a doubt.

"truly,truly" is Jesus very emphatically saying," Listen to this very closely and make sure to take heed, because the Kingdom of darkness is going to attack what I am about to say!"

WHOEVER believes has eternal life......does NOT come into Judgement( no maybe,no if, but EMPHATICALLY does NOT!)

Eternal security is an unbreakable relationship, because it depends entirely on who and what God is, never on who and what we are. Grace always depends on God’s divine policy in dealing with us as believers. Your weaknesses cannot cancel God’s strength. Your failures cannot nullify or reduce in any way the integrity of God.

I agree with both you and numbers on the gospel of grace and that if one has ever been truly ever born again He will bring that person back to Him even if they believe they have been lost forever. He works what I see as mircles everyday in peoples lives. He does not forsake us ever. The power of His saving grace....
The story of the prodigal is there for a reason both for the son who strays and for the one who is the righteous son. Lessons should be taken from both.

 

[farouk]

The end of Romans 8 is a case in point, about the Lord preserving His people.

 

[reba]

His Blood is more powerful then my sin.

 

[Deborah13]

His Blood is more powerful then my sin.

AMEN!!

 

[childeye]

For sure:

"25 ...whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do." (James 1:22 NIV)


Here's something to help us understand the matter a little better:

"15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth." (John 14:15-17 NIV)

"21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” (John 14:21 NIV)

"7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples." (John 15:7-8 NIV)

"10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete." (John 15:10-11 NIV)

"I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you." (John 15:16 NIV)

See? The manifest goodness and benefit of fellowship with God through the Holy Spirit (not salvation itself in regard to being put into Christ) is conditioned on obedience...specifically the obedience to love others. Notice John 15:8 --our fruitfulness, our obedience, SHOWS us to be disciples of Christ, not MAKES us into disciples of Christ.

Thanks for the reply. Obedience is not hampered by rebellion when one sees the Truth of God's Character and believes (trusts) in Him. But trust precedes obedience even when that obedience is unto Satan. The Christ and his sacrifice on the cross is undefeatable in human reasoning as to the integrity of his trustworthiness. That's the way I see it.

 

[gr8grace]

I agree with both you and numbers on the gospel of grace and that if one has ever been truly ever born again He will bring that person back to Him even if they believe they have been lost forever. He works what I see as mircles everyday in peoples lives. He does not forsake us ever. The power of His saving grace....
The story of the prodigal is there for a reason both for the son who strays and for the one who is the righteous son. Lessons should be taken from both.

The prodigal son is a great analogy to bring in to this. Which Son do we tend to focus on? The overtly bad one right? (Note: this story is more about the Father then the sons)

Like this thread, for some they are questioning if the younger lost His salvation. And the focus is on the "wild" brother.(Notice that that is what the self righteous brother does!)

The Father is pictured as always "looking" for His son to come back, and The son never loses his title of "SON"

when the son comes to his senses, and goes back notice the Father embraces and Kisses him BEFORE the son says a word(already saved!), the Father never loses or casts out His Sons.

The Son who strayed= the sinners
the self righteous Son=the scribes and pharisees

Now the self righteous son(remember the Father divided up both of the sons share) stayed and did the right things with his wealth. But He regarded that as worth something to the Father,it is , but the Sons motivations were wrong. He used it to promote himself, instead of the Father.

we See the self righteous accusing the younger of not deserving his Fathers attention(sound familiar on this thread?) Luke 15:30 " who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes,"......which is gossip, the older son did not know what the younger did.(He is describing what he would have done if he had went astray...transference arrogance.)

We see the older son, angry,implacable and self righteous.

We see the the younger son as restored to fellowship with his Father. But we Do not see the Older as restored to His Father. Both were and are always Sons though, Because of who the Father is.

 

[vocalyocal]

then after all is said and done we see Jesus only finding a few worthy to wear the white robe, a few in the church who repented and turned from sins that led to death, who escaped having their names blotted out of the book of life...............If I were a gambling man which I'm not, I would say if your going to be in error on this doctrine, ER ON THE SIDE OF LIFE!

 

[John Zain]

Elsewhere, I started a popular thread which tackled the major question ...
Can a born-again Christian end up NOT being part of God’s elect, i.e. lose his/her salvation?

I see that some of you here cast a vote of "YES", which is IMO what the NT warns us about.

God's blessing whilst you argue!

 

[Deborah13]

The prodigal son is a great analogy to bring in to this. Which Son do we tend to focus on? The overtly bad one right? (Note: this story is more about the Father then the sons)

Like this thread, for some they are questioning if the younger lost His salvation. And the focus is on the "wild" brother.(Notice that that is what the self righteous brother does!)

The Father is pictured as always "looking" for His son to come back, and The son never loses his title of "SON"

when the son comes to his senses, and goes back notice the Father embraces and Kisses him BEFORE the son says a word(already saved!), the Father never loses or casts out His Sons.

The Son who strayed= the sinners
the self righteous Son=the scribes and pharisees

Now the self righteous son(remember the Father divided up both of the sons share) stayed and did the right things with his wealth. But He regarded that as worth something to the Father,it is , but the Sons motivations were wrong. He used it to promote himself, instead of the Father.

we See the self righteous accusing the younger of not deserving his Fathers attention(sound familiar on this thread?) Luke 15:30 " who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes,"......which is gossip, the older son did not know what the younger did.(He is describing what he would have done if he had went astray...transference arrogance.)

We see the older son, angry,implacable and self righteous.

We see the the younger son as restored to fellowship with his Father. But we Do not see the Older as restored to His Father. Both were and are always Sons though, Because of who the Father is.

Your interpretation is accurate in my opinion.

 

[Deborah13]

then after all is said and done we see Jesus only finding a few worthy to wear the white robe, a few in the church who repented and turned from sins that led to death, who escaped having their names blotted out of the book of life...............If I were a gambling man which I'm not, I would say if your going to be in error on this doctrine, ER ON THE SIDE OF LIFE!

LOL yes, er on the side of LIFE!!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The prodigal son is a great analogy to bring in to this. Which Son do we tend to focus on? The overtly bad one right? (Note: this story is more about the Father then the sons)

Like this thread, for some they are questioning if the younger lost His salvation. And the focus is on the "wild" brother.(Notice that that is what the self righteous brother does!)

The Father is pictured as always "looking" for His son to come back, and The son never loses his title of "SON"

when the son comes to his senses, and goes back notice the Father embraces and Kisses him BEFORE the son says a word(already saved!), the Father never loses or casts out His Sons.

The Son who strayed= the sinners
the self righteous Son=the scribes and pharisees

Now the self righteous son(remember the Father divided up both of the sons share) stayed and did the right things with his wealth. But He regarded that as worth something to the Father,it is , but the Sons motivations were wrong. He used it to promote himself, instead of the Father.

we See the self righteous accusing the younger of not deserving his Fathers attention(sound familiar on this thread?) Luke 15:30 " who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes,"......which is gossip, the older son did not know what the younger did.(He is describing what he would have done if he had went astray...transference arrogance.)

We see the older son, angry,implacable and self righteous.

We see the the younger son as restored to fellowship with his Father. But we Do not see the Older as restored to His Father. Both were and are always Sons though, Because of who the Father is.

[video=youtube;IxAKFlpdcfc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxAKFlpdcfc[/video]

 

[gr8grace]

It's much more than being addressed to those who "totally reject the blood of Christ". A person can live a life of sin WHILE claiming to believe in God and Christ's superior work on the cross. What did 1st John say about those who claim to love Christ but not their neighbor? Liars. Does Paul think liars will inherit the Kingdom?

Being a believer is much more than a simple intellectual assent to some abstract ideas. Belief, according to Scriptures, must be LIVED.

Regards

So what are some of those abstract Ideas?

Are these abstract Ideas from God?

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

The abstract ideas are from creatures that add to these very basic and easy to read verses.

The more Faith alone in Christ alone is attacked, it becomes more obvious that it must be the truth. (and it IS)

3000 people will disagree with faith alone(because religion and the world rules today) and 2 will agree....I am going with the 2 that get attacked for their belief, if they get attacked it must be From Christ. The world does not attack that which is from this world.

 

[vocalyocal]

So what are some of those abstract Ideas?

Are these abstract Ideas from God?

“Whosoever believes in me will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:15

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.” Jn 3:16

“He that believes on him is not condemned, but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:18

“He that believes the Son has everlasting life, and he that believes not the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” Jn 3:36

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one that which sees the Son, and believes on him, will have everlasting life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”Jn 6:40

“Truly I say unto you, he that believes on me, has everlasting life.” Jn 6:47

The abstract ideas are from creatures that add to these very basic and easy to read verses.

The more Faith alone in Christ alone is attacked, it becomes more obvious that it must be the truth. (and it IS)

3000 people will disagree with faith alone(because religion and the world rules today) and 2 will agree....I am going with the 2 that get attacked for their belief, if they get attacked it must be From Christ. The world does not attack that which is from this world.

then I would contend that we discuss what does "Believing really mean"

 

[gr8grace]

then I would contend that we discuss what does "Believing really mean"

In the verses that I quoted, what do you think "believes" really means?

 

[Deborah13]

In the verses that I quoted, what do you think "believes" really means?

Definition from Strong's Concordance

http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4100&t=KJV

just to help out...