Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Deborah13]

Yes, but I don't accept it because that view assumes a person can act both to gain, and "lose", his/her salvation. We can't. (Read, please, the following.)

That is not of self, but the gift of God. We must look at all biblical passages using biblical terms from a biblical perspective. From where does faith come? As Paul tell us, it is from God.

Ephesians 2 NASB
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
​

It is not ours by merit, or by our "chosenness," but by the grace of God that we are saved. We are blessed with faith in Christ, and having made a profession of it were admitted to gospel ordinances -- established by Christ when He broke the law down into simplest terms: Love God, love others (Matthew 22:37-39). We are placed in fellowship with Him and with like believers, having been "grafted in" to a fellowship that recognizes the completion of His promise in Himself. We are held fast by His power to the profession of faith in a convincing manner. We stand, and continue in our relationship with Christ in His power, not our own. We cannot give way to a vain boasting spirit, which is what claiming others can lose what we would never admit ourselves that we have lost, but to be humble, modest, and dependent upon the Lord Jesus.

As I said in the previously (twice) posted information about being "grafted in," the graft has no power over its own survival. It relies completely on the sustenance of the Vine. If the Vine rejects it -- in the case of the professor of faith, a nonacceptance of that profession because it is false and not sincere -- it perishes. If it lives, it is because the graft has been accepted by the Vine, is nourished, fed, nurtured, and blessed.

The Jews who were "broken off" (hint: a gardener breaks off a failed graft before it damages the vine) were not true professors of faith. They believed that merely being Jewish saved them. Not true. It is also because of faith, just as it is with us as Christians.

Likewise, if a professor of Christian faith thinks he/she is saved because of a walk and a prayer but truly is not convicted, acting only on emotion, they will falsely believe they are saved. Often, this is the fault of their family and friends, who see the walk of the aisle and the saying of the prayer and pronounce it "good" when it is only God who can make that pronouncement. If there is no conviction behind their confession, nor sincerity in it, they will be like that failed graft, to be broken off and cast away, because the "grafting in" failed.

There is always a reason Jesus and the apostles use allegory like this grafting illustration. It is a good idea to know the truth behind the image in order to understand the passage.

Do you believe that someone who gets saved and they join a church that believes one can lose the salvation and that's what they are taught is not really saved?
The reason I ask is because of the statement you made twice about not meeting anyone who ever thought they had lost their salvation. I told you I did and you have no comment. I find that intriguing.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Do you believe that someone who gets saved and they join a church that believes one can lose the salvation and that's what they are taught is not really saved?
The reason I ask is because of the statement you made twice about not meeting anyone who ever thought they had lost their salvation. I told you I did and you have no comment. I find that intriguing.

First, I wasn't sure that was what you were saying, so you're right, now I've met one. But yes, I believe, if you joined a church that did not accept the doctrine of eternal security, that you could easily be swayed into thinking you could lose your salvation. Is that what happened? I don't know. No one can know, because as I said, only God knows the sincerity of your heart when you first professed Christ. I wouldn't presume to say you were not saved initially, because I do not know, and I would not presume to say you were misled into believing you were not saved when you actually were, because again, I do not know.

What matters is that now you know you are saved, assured of Christ's ability to hold you fast despite your own worst acts, knowing that your faith does not come from you but from Him. It is His act that saves, and nothing you can do can overcome His ability to hold you fast.

 

[Deborah13]

First, I wasn't sure that was what you were saying, so you're right, now I've met one. But yes, I believe, if you joined a church that did not accept the doctrine of eternal security, that you could easily be swayed into thinking you could lose your salvation. Is that what happened? I don't know. No one can know, because as I said, only God knows the sincerity of your heart when you first professed Christ. I wouldn't presume to say you were not saved initially, because I do not know, and I would not presume to say you were misled into believing you were not saved when you actually were, because again, I do not know.

What matters is that now you know you are saved, assured of Christ's ability to hold you fast despite your own worst acts, knowing that your faith does not come from you but from Him. It is His act that saves, and nothing you can do can overcome His ability to hold you fast.

I'm very glad to hear you say this. I have a lot of compassion for people in bondage to this doctrine of works.

 

[iLOVE]

Yes He said that narrow is the Way, and few would find it? He also said the harlot would enter before the hypocrite. Because the harlot knows that it is by Gods Grace and goodness. The hypocrite thinks he has earned something from God. That he has worked for his salvation. Just like that evil Cain, who labored in that which God had cursed? "the law is cursed" and by the deeds of the law shall no man be justified. Able offered the Lamb "righteousness of faith" and was accepted before God. The reason some have the heart of cain, and look to destroy the righteous, is because they hate those of us who are accepted before God. Freely justified by His Grace. So it is no wonder that those who think their salvation is dependent upon thier own efforts, have no assurance. They are not established upon the Rock and they do not and can not stand. But by grace we stand and will not be moved.
Now ilove, i have not judged you to this point. But as a true minister of The Living God, I have power to bring upon you that which you would lay upon others. So I would warn you to be a bit more humble and show respect for Gods people.

The Lord has spoken to me and wanted me to ask you what is meant by your last statement?

 

[Mitspa]

The Lord has spoken to me and wanted me to ask you what is meant by your last statement?

Well if God has spoken to you? He has corrected you. The basic priciple of accusing a righteous man is that , those who rise in judgment against the righteous are condemned by their words. Now a true minister understand this spiritual law. For a born-again Christian to accuse other christians, is different than a non-christian. I did not pray and ask the Lord to correct you, altough He confirmed that He would deal with you.

 

[Mitspa]

Could it be because they are heeding the Bible's warnings to be careful to persevere in the faith and not be lost? That's why they were given, not so we will fall away, but so we won't. Do you understand what I'm saying?

No! They are not heeding the warnings of scripture against turning back into works. They are preaching another gospel!
A gospel that mixes grace and works of law.
They are preaching another Jesus? Not the one who came to save what is lost, not the Jesus full of grace and truth. Not Jesus that said "nothing can take us from the Fathers Hand" or said "I will never leave nor forsake you"
They are teaching "another spirit" not the Spirit of Acts2, nor the Spirit that cries Abba Father. Or that witness to Gods Righteousness. But a spirit of bondage again unto fear.
"The accusing spirit" is not the same Spirit.

 

[Mitspa]

Do you love Lord Jesus Christ? Why do you start forums that starts conflict over and over? The Holy Spirit will never allow you to continue to post and talk as you do. Is He there? You do not depend on Christ and the Cross for anything. You have shown you are double minded. Choose several of these six things if you wish below.

16 There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

So you call me antichrist? and then you say accuse number of these things? Then you accuse him of causing conflict???

Hypocricy is an amazing thing! God stood before the pharisee and they ACCUSED Him of sin! Notice that even upon death He accused none of them? He said to them do not think that I will accuse you to the Father, but there is one who accuses you? MOSES IN WHOM YOU TRUST.
the name satan means ACCUSER, he is called the accuser of the brotheren.
Jesus Christ did not come to condemn but to save. HE IS THE JUSTIFIER.

those who look to accuse others, are not walking in truth.
They are not walking as the Lord walked.

 

[iLOVE]

So you call me antichrist? and then you say accuse number of these things? Then you accuse him of causing conflict???

Hypocricy is an amazing thing! God stood before the pharisee and they ACCUSED Him of sin! Notice that even upon death He accused none of them? He said to them do not think that I will accuse you to the Father, but there is one who accuses you? MOSES IN WHOM YOU TRUST.
the name satan means ACCUSER, he is called the accuser of the brotheren.
Jesus Christ did not come to condemn but to save. HE IS THE JUSTIFIER.

those who look to accuse others, are not walking in truth.
They are not walking as the Lord walked.

The Lord has informed me not to engage in conflict. However beware of the serpents. They will preach Satan ministry. Any one that preaches I did not mean what I said beware.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No! They are not heeding the warnings of scripture against turning back into works. They are preaching another gospel!
A gospel that mixes grace and works of law.

The people I'm talking about who go back to the world are preaching another gospel? How is that?

They are preaching another Jesus? Not the one who came to save what is lost, not the Jesus full of grace and truth.

The people I know that have gone back to the world are preaching no Jesus at all. They've abandoned all the speech and activities of their previous profession. They're openly engaging in their previous lifestyle and denying Christ with their mouths, not proclaiming any gospel at all.

Please stop accusing me of defending something I'm not, okay? If you want to start another thread about what you're ranting about, please do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, but I don't accept it because that view assumes a person can act both to gain, and "lose", his/her salvation. We can't. (Read, please, the following.)

That is not of self, but the gift of God. We must look at all biblical passages using biblical terms from a biblical perspective. From where does faith come? As Paul tell us, it is from God.

Ephesians 2 NASB
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith ; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
​

It is not ours by merit, or by our "chosenness," but by the grace of God that we are saved. We are blessed with faith in Christ, and having made a profession of it were admitted to gospel ordinances -- established by Christ when He broke the law down into simplest terms: Love God, love others (Matthew 22:37-39). We are placed in fellowship with Him and with like believers, having been "grafted in" to a fellowship that recognizes the completion of His promise in Himself. We are held fast by His power to the profession of faith in a convincing manner. We stand, and continue in our relationship with Christ in His power, not our own. We cannot give way to a vain boasting spirit, which is what claiming others can lose what we would never admit ourselves that we have lost, but to be humble, modest, and dependent upon the Lord Jesus.

As I said in the previously (twice) posted information about being "grafted in," the graft has no power over its own survival. It relies completely on the sustenance of the Vine. If the Vine rejects it -- in the case of the professor of faith, a nonacceptance of that profession because it is false and not sincere -- it perishes. If it lives, it is because the graft has been accepted by the Vine, is nourished, fed, nurtured, and blessed.

The Jews who were "broken off" (hint: a gardener breaks off a failed graft before it damages the vine) were not true professors of faith. They believed that merely being Jewish saved them. Not true. It is also because of faith, just as it is with us as Christians.

Likewise, if a professor of Christian faith thinks he/she is saved because of a walk and a prayer but truly is not convicted, acting only on emotion, they will falsely believe they are saved. Often, this is the fault of their family and friends, who see the walk of the aisle and the saying of the prayer and pronounce it "good" when it is only God who can make that pronouncement. If there is no conviction behind their confession, nor sincerity in it, they will be like that failed graft, to be broken off and cast away, because the "grafting in" failed.

There is always a reason Jesus and the apostles use allegory like this grafting illustration. It is a good idea to know the truth behind the image in order to understand the passage.

(I'm very short on time in the mornings, so I quickly read your post.)

Why does Paul tell people who are 'standing in faith' to 'continue' in that faith or else be cut out of the vine if they can't be removed from the vine by anything? He says the same thing about persevering to people who already have faith to hang in there, or else. What is the purpose of a warning that people standing in faith must hear, but which does not apply to them?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

(I'm very short on time in the mornings, so I quickly read your post.)

Why does Paul tell people who are 'standing in faith' to 'continue' in that faith or else be cut out of the vine if they can't be removed from the vine by anything?

Please show me where the Romans 11 passage has the word "continue" included in it. The "standing by your faith" statement in v. 20 is not a command to "keep doing," but is a simple statement of fact. Note that Paul goes on to say they should not be conceited, but fear. The conceit was found in the Gentile believers thinking the Jews were abandoned by God ("broken off" from the Vine) and they were placed in the Vine because they somehow merited that favor. The entire passage previous to v. 20 bears that out. There is no sense of "continuing" anywhere in that passage.

He says the same thing about persevering to people who already have faith to hang in there, or else. What is the purpose of a warning that people standing in faith must hear, but which does not apply to them?

The error of many Armenian thinkers is that "perseverance" is all about salvation, and quite clearly it is not. The Bible clearly teaches that we are born again of the Holy Spirit, based on faith which God Himself enables within us, not on any reasoning or wisdom we might conjure up that would be adequate to restore the fellowship with God that was lost when Adam sinned. All who have been born again absolutely possess the eternal security of Christ and will persevere. The doctrine of the perseverance of the saints is founded in this promises:

Philippians 1 NASB
6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

John 6
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day."
​

Beyond the concept of perseverance in regard to salvation, there are biblical exhortations to persevere in the Christian life. In his pastoral epistles to Timothy, the Apostle Paul gives this reminder to his young [FONT=&quot]protégé,[/FONT] the pastor at Ephesus.

1 Timothy 4
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.
​

Now, you could easily read that and say, "See? I was right!" But if you do so, you will be wrong. Timothy’s character was that of a godly man, and his doctrine was sound and scriptural. As such, he and Paul both knew from the teaching they had received that the other above passages teach that a believer cannot lose his/her security in Christ, and therefore the perseverance spoken of is in lifestyle, not belief, because -- as I've repeatedly said throughout this and other threads -- true belief, true faith in Christ can neither be faked, nor lost.

Paul warned Timothy to watch both himself and his teaching closely and persevere in them because it would save he and his flock from the errors of living as in the world. Given the vast amount of teaching that Jesus preserves those given to Him, that He will not lose one, there is no necessity here for Paul to admonish so mature a Christian as Timothy to watch out "that you don't lose your salvation." Paul did not believe it could be lost, so he certainly would not warn Timothy to avoid doing so!

This is a warning not just to Timothy, but to all Christians -- perseverance in godly living and believing the truth is a shield against the pollution of sin in the world, being dragged down from a high faith and practice of godly living into a morass of confusion that can make believing Christians appear little different from the world. In providing this example to his church, Timothy would have also helped them avoid the lies of erroneous principles and immoral practices. He would, by faithfully preaching the Gospel to his hearers, keep them on track, living a truly rewarding godly life in Christ.

 

[vocalyocal]

Hebrews 6:4-12

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

That's what I'm saying. So if you think that sin after being born again is classified as losing salvation then that person cannot be brought to repentance. The Holy Spirit no longer has influence in their life, they reject it. They won't want to come back. Get it. Someone can be in sin and not reject their belief that Jesus is their Savior. If one rejects God they can only do it by not believing anymore that He is their salvation, they reject the blood of the Savior. Maybe by turning to another belief, another god, or atheist. In this case in Hebrews I believe that the author was warning them not to go back to animal blood for atonement. Also notice that the person d.escribed is a very mature believer. The Bible says there is ONE sin unto death. Could repeated willful sin lead to rejecting the Savior? I don't know and it's not my place to judge someone else's salvation. I have the belief in my heart that Jesus will keep who the Father has given Him.

sorry so long to respond, while I agree with your post, I don't agree that a believer in Jesus will inherit the kingdom of God if he or she dies while living unrepentantly in a sin that leads to death, I'm not talking about a Christian that falls suddenly into a sin as we see King David do with Bathsheba, I'm talking about someone who knows the bible declares what they are doing is sin but they simply refuse to turn from it

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please show me where the Romans 11 passage has the word "continue" included in it. The "standing by your faith" statement in v. 20 is not a command to "keep doing," but is a simple statement of fact. Note that Paul goes on to say they should not be conceited, but fear. The conceit was found in the Gentile believers thinking the Jews were abandoned by God ("broken off" from the Vine) and they were placed in the Vine because they somehow merited that favor. The entire passage previous to v. 20 bears that out. There is no sense of "continuing" anywhere in that passage.

"20...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. " (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

This makes perfect sense in regard to covenant privilege, but the debate seems to center around if this is speaking of continuing in the covenant, or not, altogether, not just the blessings of the covenant. But the plain and undeniable point is (whatever it really is talking about), if you do not continue in the kindness of God you will be cut off. There's no arguing that point. There's a definite cutting off occurring for those who don't 'continue' in God's kindness.

(Maybe you addressed some of this in the rest of your post...will read it later)

 

[Mitspa]

The Lord has informed me not to engage in conflict. However beware of the serpents. They will preach Satan ministry. Any one that preaches I did not mean what I said beware.

Not even sure what this post means? Satan means "accuser" the New Testament makes clear and evident warnings against those who turn back into the ministry of death and condemnation. 2 Cor 3. Now to take those warnings and twist them as a snake, to bring others under the bondage of law, is the work of satan. THE ACCUSER.

so I mean exactly what I say, those who do this are breaking the law they are "pretending" to keep.

Now as for your desire to avoid conflict?? I think that would be wise for you.

 

[Deborah13]

"20...you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. " (Romans 11:20-22 NASB)

This makes perfect sense in regard to covenant privilege, but the debate seems to center around if this is speaking of continuing in the covenant, or not, altogether, not just the blessings of the covenant. But the plain and undeniable point is (whatever it really is talking about), if you do not continue in the kindness of God you will be cut off. There's no arguing that point. There's a definite cutting off occurring for those who don't 'continue' in God's kindness.

(Maybe you addressed some of this in the rest of your post...will read it later)

I see this as saying continue in faith the Christ, do not reject as those that were removed for lack of belief. We could not expect to be left there as a dead branch in unbelief.
Again I see this as a total reject of the blood of Christ. As was the problem with the unbelieving Jews.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

(Maybe you addressed some of this in the rest of your post...will read it later)

I did, and have to wonder why you would not wait until you had read the entire post before replying?

 

[francisdesales]

Oh boy,

Seems like nothing has changed here since my last post - arguing about OSAS vs "losing" said salvation - while ignoring a plethora of verses cited...

"They were written to the Church so they could go out into the world and warn the lost what would occur if they did not get saved."

Wow...Read them again. How about this one:

Paul forced his body unto subjection so he would not be disqualified. 1 Cor 9:27

Yea, clearly, the Scriptures are refering to non-saved individuals here...

Read the Scriptures again without your OSAS lenses. The warnings are given to THE CHURCH and her members, not the "lost" who need to be saved. The Bible isn't about a "membership drive"... It's about a relationship with God Almighty, a relationship that begins NOW, not a 'get out of hell free" promise for the future.


Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I'm very glad to hear you say this. I have a lot of compassion for people in bondage to this doctrine of works.

The doctrine of presumption is a bondage, as well, Deborah. We must be careful in not taking either extreme to heart.

Regards

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It's about a relationship with God Almighty, a relationship that begins NOW, not a 'get out of hell free" promise for the future.

A relationship that Christ secures Himself, for eternity, without fear that it can be "lost" because it was not "gained" on our strength in the first place, but on His.

 

[francisdesales]

I see this as saying continue in faith the Christ, do not reject as those that were removed for lack of belief. We could not expect to be left there as a dead branch in unbelief.
Again I see this as a total reject of the blood of Christ. As was the problem with the unbelieving Jews.

It's much more than being addressed to those who "totally reject the blood of Christ". A person can live a life of sin WHILE claiming to believe in God and Christ's superior work on the cross. What did 1st John say about those who claim to love Christ but not their neighbor? Liars. Does Paul think liars will inherit the Kingdom?

Being a believer is much more than a simple intellectual assent to some abstract ideas. Belief, according to Scriptures, must be LIVED.

Regards