Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[francisdesales]

A relationship that Christ secures Himself, for eternity, without fear that it can be "lost" because it was not "gained" on our strength in the first place, but on His.

God takes the initiative towards man - He loved us while we were still in sin. It does not follow, however, that man has nothing to do in this relationship but sit back and wait for God to "do it all".

You do recall the parable of the sower and the seed? Please note that the seed - the SAME SEED - fell on ALL. In other words, the "soil" has something to do with the fruit, does it not?

No one is saying that we gain anything on our strength ALONE. However, there is an interaction from man - something that God moves within us to respond. Otherwise, this makes free will a farce.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

So what are some of those abstract Ideas?

Are these abstract Ideas from God?

OSAS is not. It is from man.

Everyone of of your verses you cite includes the word BELIEVES. It is a present tense verb. Believe NOW. Not ten years ago, once believed always believed.

NOW, as in till the day you die.

Regards

 

[Mitspa]

The doctrine of presumption is a bondage, as well, Deborah. We must be careful in not taking either extreme to heart.

Regards

"doctrine of presumption" no its called the gospel of grace, freely justified by His grace.

There is not mixture in the gospel, it is not part works and part grace. For if its by works then it is no longer by grace, and if its by grace its no longer by works, or else grace is not grace and works is not works.

Besides that the discussion of the thread has been in regards to the warnings of scripture. All these warnings are clearly made to those who turn from grace back into law.

 

[vocalyocal]

In the verses that I quoted, what do you think "believes" really means?

well if someone yelled and said "a tornado is coming down the street" and I continued to sit on the porch doing nothing, I would imagine most would contend that I didn't believe the warning

I think if someone says they "believe" that actions will back up the "belief", otherwise they're just a knucklehead sitting on a porch with a tornado coming down the street

 

[Mitspa]

God takes the initiative towards man - He loved us while we were still in sin. It does not follow, however, that man has nothing to do in this relationship but sit back and wait for God to "do it all".

You do recall the parable of the sower and the seed? Please note that the seed - the SAME SEED - fell on ALL. In other words, the "soil" has something to do with the fruit, does it not?

No one is saying that we gain anything on our strength ALONE. However, there is an interaction from man - something that God moves within us to respond. Otherwise, this makes free will a farce.

Regards

Who has made the claim that we are to do nothing? When a legalist "who is in the flesh" hears the true gospel, they always think in terms of their carnal lust. The strength of sin is the law, those who are under law always have the desire to sin. So when they hear of Gods grace, they think in terms of their own lust. Those of us who know Gods grace, have no desire to sin or to set around and do nothing. We labor more abundantly, by grace.

And no one is discussing "free will" we are not calvinist, we are Spirit filled Christains, who live our lives in honor of Christ. We do good, because He is good and has empowered us by His mighty grace.

 

[francisdesales]

"doctrine of presumption" no its called the gospel of grace, freely justified by His grace.

There is not mixture in the gospel, it is not part works and part grace. For if its by works then it is no longer by grace, and if its by grace its no longer by works, or else grace is not grace and works is not works.

Besides that the discussion of the thread has been in regards to the warnings of scripture. All these warnings are clearly made to those who turn from grace back into law.

The doctrine of presumption is presuming that God owes you "salvation". No matter what you do, God is "bound" to "save" you for eternal life. It defeats the entire purpose of sanctification and a moral life. It is virtually blasphemy to think God owes us anything, even after we sin grievously - especially when the Bible clearly shows Christians who fall away. It is presumption to say that - despite Paul's words, for example, to the Corinthians (1 Cor 6) that NO [list of sinners] shall enter the Kingdom. NONE. Presumption presumes that God MUST allow such sinners into heaven because of a one time faith declaration?

I'm sorry, but that is a false doctrine.

I see, from past experience, the same error of equating "works" with ANY human act. This leads to the "God does everything" v "man does everything". Or any fraction in between.

It is quite simple. In Christ, I can DO all. Even be perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect. Me in Christ. This preserves the Scriptural balance of free will and grace.

While I agree that there are warnings to those who turn their back on grace - it does NOT follow that these people are "turning back to the law" - The Divine Law of God has not been abrogated, it is still in force. You shall love God with all of your heart and your neighbor as your self. Jesus told us this is the summation of the Law. Jesus did not come to overturn the Law.

Regards

 

[Mitspa]

OSAS is not. It is from man.

Everyone of of your verses you cite includes the word BELIEVES. It is a present tense verb. Believe NOW. Not ten years ago, once believed always believed.

NOW, as in till the day you die.

Regards

Who has claimed that a living faith is not needed? Only you seem to make the false ideas and then you attack an idea you made up in your own mind.
This is not honest, let me guess you "claim" to keep the law of moses?

 

[francisdesales]

Who has made the claim that we are to do nothing? When a legalist "who is in the flesh" hears the true gospel, they always think in terms of their carnal lust. The strength of sin is the law, those who are under law always have the desire to sin. So when they hear of Gods grace, they think in terms of their own lust. Those of us who know Gods grace, have no desire to sin or to set around and do nothing. We labor more abundantly, by grace.

And no one is discussing "free will" we are not calvinist, we are Spirit filled Christains, who live our lives in honor of Christ. We do good, because He is good and has empowered us by His mighty grace.

By stating this, it apears you are turning this thread into everything you have said it is not above:

Besides that the discussion of the thread has been in regards to the warnings of scripture. All these warnings are clearly made to those who turn from grace back into law.

If Paul is writing to Gentiles, how can they "turn back to the Law" when they never followed the Law to begin with? What exactly do you mean by "the law" here?

Correct me if I am wrong, it appears you are turning the idea of "work" into any action man does (as also noted by your comments on "grace v works"), rather than Paul's intent - a work being particularly Jewish cultic action. Such as circumcision. No, we don't have to be Jews. Gentiles don't have to become Jews.

I agree that we do need to labour. Abundantly. Being Christian is dying to self.

Regards

 

[Deborah13]

OSAS is not. It is from man.

Everyone of of your verses you cite includes the word BELIEVES. It is a present tense verb. Believe NOW. Not ten years ago, once believed always believed.

NOW, as in till the day you die. Regards

I would think it would be in present tense, wouldn't do much good to anyone in past tense.

Seeing our walk and life is reliant on the present faith, trust, and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[francisdesales]

Who has claimed that a living faith is not needed? Only you seem to make the false ideas and then you attack an idea you made up in your own mind.
This is not honest, let me guess you "claim" to keep the law of moses?

I think I was addressing someone else in my discussion on citations with the word "believes". The OSAS crowd thinks that if I believed, really believed, I would be eternally saved. The citation using the word "believes" strongly suggests the belief is ongoing. If that belief dies - as it certainly can and does in Christians later in life - that person no longer believes. No, never believed...!

This is sophistry, pure and simple. How does that falling away reflect on that one time act from long ago???

OSAS does not claim a living faith is needed. You DO understand what ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED means, don't you...

I would appreciate you not making remarks about my own personal spirituality. Whether I keep the Mosaic Law or not is none of your concern and has nothing to do with this thread.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I would think it would be in present tense, wouldn't do much good to anyone in past tense.

Seeing our walk and life is reliant on the present faith, trust, and indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Of course, so OSAS is false. That's the ENTIRE POINT of the doctrine OSAS! It is only that past declaration that matters. Glad we agree.

Regards

 

[gr8grace]

Definition from Strong's Concordance

http://v3.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?strongs=G4100&t=KJV

just to help out...

Thanks Deb.

looks to me that If I add anything to that, other than faith in the object, I would be intellectually and academically dishonest.


Christ died as a substitute for us once; we believe in Him once.

Hebrews 9:27-28, And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once

In both Romans 5:8 and 1 Peter 3:18, Christ died as a substitute for us. Notice that both verses say Christ died once. So our response to the one act of sacrifice is one act of faith, and faith alone. By one act of faith, we have eternal life.
Galatians 3:13, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for [instead of, in place of, on behalf of, as a substitute for] us for it stands written (Deuteronomy 21:23), "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree [cross]"

To say that we can lose our salvation and come back, is to crucify Christ again. And our God will not do that.

To say that we can lose our salvation is to say that Christ crucified was not enough.

To say that believing is more then Faith alone, is saying God requires works from us and His Sons sacrifice on the Cross was not sufficient.

 

[Mitspa]

The doctrine of presumption is presuming that God owes you "salvation". No matter what you do, God is "bound" to "save" you for eternal life. It defeats the entire purpose of sanctification and a moral life. It is virtually blasphemy to think God owes us anything, even after we sin grievously - especially when the Bible clearly shows Christians who fall away. It is presumption to say that - despite Paul's words, for example, to the Corinthians (1 Cor 6) that NO [list of sinners] shall enter the Kingdom. NONE. Presumption presumes that God MUST allow such sinners into heaven because of a one time faith declaration?

I'm sorry, but that is a false doctrine.

I see, from past experience, the same error of equating "works" with ANY human act. This leads to the "God does everything" v "man does everything". Or any fraction in between.

It is quite simple. In Christ, I can DO all. Even be perfect as my heavenly Father is perfect. Me in Christ. This preserves the Scriptural balance of free will and grace.

While I agree that there are warnings to those who turn their back on grace - it does NOT follow that these people are "turning back to the law" - The Divine Law of God has not been abrogated, it is still in force. You shall love God with all of your heart and your neighbor as your self. Jesus told us this is the summation of the Law. Jesus did not come to overturn the Law.

Regards

Who has made such a claim? only in your mind does these thoughts have any truth. You lay out a false charge that is not based in any truth, and then you go into some lecture of condemning your own made up nonsense.
Why do you quote only part of a scripture? thats being a false witness. Jesus said He came to fulfill the law, every jot and tittle is finsihed in Christ.
And the law is not of faith, it is not for the righteous! This is so clear that Paul says it is EVIDENT that no man is justified by the deeds of the law.

I do not really want to take the time to go in the big circle of lies that those who teach law go into, but I will and I will prove how untrue and false that doctrine is to anyone who reads this thread.

 

[reba]

I may not agree with ya Francisdesales....but nice to 'see' ya again. reba

 

[jasoncran]

odd. the torah has faith in it. How can one love God with out first believe in him? the first commandment is that.

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks Deb.

looks to me that If I add anything to that, other than faith in the object, I would be intellectually and academically dishonest.


Christ died as a substitute for us once; we believe in Him once.

Hebrews 9:27-28, And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once

In both Romans 5:8 and 1 Peter 3:18, Christ died as a substitute for us. Notice that both verses say Christ died once. So our response to the one act of sacrifice is one act of faith, and faith alone. By one act of faith, we have eternal life.
Galatians 3:13, Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for [instead of, in place of, on behalf of, as a substitute for] us for it stands written (Deuteronomy 21:23), "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree [cross]"

To say that we can lose our salvation and come back, is to crucify Christ again. And our God will not do that.

To say that we can lose our salvation is to say that Christ crucified was not enough.

To say that believing is more then Faith alone, is saying God requires works from us and His Sons sacrifice on the Cross was not sufficient.

Your welcome, and yes I agree with your deduction.

 

[jasoncran]

im far from a legalist, but I do believe that one can walk away from god knowingly. romans one implies the idea that those that do those things did so with the idea that they KNEW GOD WAS REAL.

 

[Mitspa]

By stating this, it apears you are turning this thread into everything you have said it is not above:

Besides that the discussion of the thread has been in regards to the warnings of scripture. All these warnings are clearly made to those who turn from grace back into law.

If Paul is writing to Gentiles, how can they "turn back to the Law" when they never followed the Law to begin with? What exactly do you mean by "the law" here?

Correct me if I am wrong, it appears you are turning the idea of "work" into any action man does (as also noted by your comments on "grace v works"), rather than Paul's intent - a work being particularly Jewish cultic action. Such as circumcision. No, we don't have to be Jews. Gentiles don't have to become Jews.

I agree that we do need to labour. Abundantly. Being Christian is dying to self.

Regards

Well first you have thown out so many false statements on these issues, I felt that your dishonest statements should be rebuked.
As far as the gentiles turning to law, anyone who has read the epistles knows that certain jews where coming into the chruch, seeking to bring them into bondage. Besides that many of the leaders of the gentile chruches was in fact jews.
Besides that, the warnings that have been used on this thread have come from different places in NT scripture.
So please understand you are making no point in bringing up this issue.

 

[iLOVE]

Luke 12:42-46

English Standard Version (ESV)


42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant[a] whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45 But if that servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.

 

[Mitspa]

I think I was addressing someone else in my discussion on citations with the word "believes". The OSAS crowd thinks that if I believed, really believed, I would be eternally saved. The citation using the word "believes" strongly suggests the belief is ongoing. If that belief dies - as it certainly can and does in Christians later in life - that person no longer believes. No, never believed...!

This is sophistry, pure and simple. How does that falling away reflect on that one time act from long ago???

OSAS does not claim a living faith is needed. You DO understand what ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED means, don't you...

I would appreciate you not making remarks about my own personal spirituality. Whether I keep the Mosaic Law or not is none of your concern and has nothing to do with this thread.

Regards

So you come on a thread to lash out at others, and cast doubt opon others doctrines and salvation, but your doctrines and your mindset and understanding cannot be questioned? Oh please! maybe your looking for the childrens bible story section of the forum? You will be required to defend your doctrines and you will be challenged on those doctrines. Now if you cannot take it? do not judge others and accuse Gods people of with false doctrine.

Maybe you are in over your head? If you would like to recant your charges and admit your errors, we will forgive you.