Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[gr8grace]

You must be using the word 'believers' loosely because by definition a believer is one whose has placed their faith and trust and confidence in the hope of Christ.

Faith (believing) is what makes the sure hope of Christ a sure hope for that person. But there is no sure hope apart from believing. No faith in Christ--no hope of salvation through Christ. We know our hope is sure if we have faith in that hope.

This is why I don't agree that believers are cast into hell. A 'believer' who is cast into hell because of 'unbelief'? That's contradictory. Their unbelief defines them as an unbeliever, not a believer.

Hi Jethro,

I am confident that you are going to believe what you believe.

I am confident in what I believe.

from what you Just said, here is the witness to an unbeliever," if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, He will save you only as long as you believe, He will forsake you if you falter."

We all need to realize How dangerous that is. It is not a true witness and the unbeliever is not believing the right thing for their salvation. It is not the real Gospel, and we could be hindering personal salvation to a lost soul.

We need to be exact in our witness to the lost. if you believe on Jesus Christ for your salvation He will NEVER forsake you. No matter what you act like in the Future.

I have seen a plethora of solid biblical answers given to you. I pray that your dilemma and your questions on this subject are answered by the Lord for you sometime. From what i have read though, I see Him Screaming for your attention.

 

[Deborah13]

The flesh is always ready to correct. However your spirit that has been sealed with righteousness loves his Christian Brother.

Lord Jesus ask Peter, "do you Love Me Peter"? Not at one time did Jesus bring up or ask Peter why did you deny Me. This is the heart of our Savior Lord Jesus Christ.

This is Truth.

 

[Mitspa]

I guess I'll jump in by saying you're all right and you're all wrong and you all can choose which one makes you the most angry or happy. I would like to say, To Joe (Francisdesalles), that I missed you very much, but that does not mean I don't Love Mitspa or thisnumberisdisconnected. Indeed I love you all but I'm feeling a bit left out because nobody has taken the time to beat me with your impressive verbal swords. So come on, let's have at it, I promise I'll only use one hand so as not to disrupt the circle we are all fighting in. So what's the issue? It doesn't matter which side I take since with the power of semantics I can argue either effectively.

Well there is a truth and those who have it are free! Those who do not believe and seek to make there own truth are never going to have the confidence of true faith. Now some scripture is written for the children, the "carnal" and some it written for the "spiritual" the babes and children should not try to teach the adults, a carnal christians is well described in scripture. They do not understand that truth dwells in the spirit. "For we are those who worship God in spirit and have no confidence in the flesh" So if you see yourself as a natural man, and you set your mind one earthly things? You have no biblical right to teach or correct others. How can a man in the flesh, jugde spiritual things?

Now childeye, I do not see that you have taken a position of judging others? And this is my main reason for posting on this certain tread? That those I see trying to get the twig out of others eyes, have big logs in their own, and dont even know it! Hypocricy was the Lords main charge against the religious class of His day, Its leaven has defiled the church for years.
This is the first and great warning of scripture!

 

[francisdesales]

So you want me to take your positions as those that come from an honest place, yet you "pretend" there is some debate about what law Paul is referring too? Let me guess you are claiming to uphold "thou shalt not bear false witness" yet in this very post you are breaking that very commandment!

Has it occured to you that you misunderstand what I am saying? Why do you need to state that I am pretending and bearing false witness???

You stated "the law if of faith". I asked which law. You didn't give me a verse you were referring to, did you. No.

Paul speaks of both the Law of Love/Grace and the Mosaic Law in his letters. If you think that is pretending, false witness, etc., I suggest you may want to cool your jets and ask me to simply explain myself without giving me your self-righteous banter.

No honest person can read that scripture in context and have any doubt about what law, Paul is speaking.

Which Scripture are you talking about???

This is just dishonest and a common trait of those who "pretend" to keep the law of mose.

I have found that people who make such statements have no intent on listening to anyone else but those who perfectly agree with them. As such, apologize or we are done.

 

[childeye]

How might I find a way to express my agreement to your thought more? Let me count the ways... The poet in me considers many of the great words of others, discards them, considers humble and honest response . o O (no, comes the thought).

Oh! I know.

Passion, emotion (the cause of our motion)... Yes, even zealous god-fearing and passionate expressions for the love that each of us is being lead toward, shows others what the Mind of Christ in us wants. It also shows little me and little you, awakens praise and forces us to turn our eyes upon Him. Hasten the day, my friend, hasten the day. Fear not as we consider the warnings, as we know they come from the One who has so well shown His life and love, that others may follow...

For some reason after reading this I feel taller.

 

[Deborah13]

We all need to realize How dangerous that is. It is not a true witness and the unbeliever is not believing the right thing for their salvation. It is not the real Gospel, and we could be hindering personal salvation to a lost soul.

We need to be exact in our witness to the lost. if you believe on Jesus Christ for your salvation He will NEVER forsake you. No matter what you act like in the Future.

Yes, it is dangerous not just to the unsaved by to the one is truly saved. The word can be twisted in this way. "He will not nor will anything else to able to remove you from the hand of the Father BUT you can jump out!" This is a lie! Not because the Lord takes away your ability to make choices but because the Holy Spirit is there to stay and He will keep you. The flame may be small because it has not been fed but the flame remains. You cannot undo what the Lord has done.

As one of our spiritual leaders on this forum has said. "The blood of our Saviour is more powerful than our sin." (para.)

 

[gr8grace]

Yes, it is dangerous not just to the unsaved by to the one is truly saved. The word can be twisted in this way. "He will not nor will anything else to able to remove you from the hand of the Father BUT you can jump out!" This is a lie! Not because the Lord takes away your ability to make choices but because the Holy Spirit is there to stay and He will keep you. The flame may be small because it has not been fed but the flame remains. You cannot undo what the Lord has done.

:amen

 

[francisdesales]

I'm sure, as Mitspa and I agree, you place me in this category too.

No, my friend, we can agree to disagree. I didn't take your comments in an arrogant manner. My comments were directed at someone who prefers to live out his Christian walk by calling people liar at virtually every turn, even after my constant apologies and attempt to defuse him. It appears that this person was not taking into consideration that there may be a misunderstanding OR that there is room for discussion on passages of Scriptures, since it is unlikely that this person has it "figured out" definitively. We can learn from each other, if we are open to HEARING them, rather than calling them liars...

I consider you extremely presumptuous to pretend to know what level of relationship Mit -- or for that matter, I -- have with Christ because we trust so strongly and believe so clearly in His ability to hold us fast, and you don't.

By your works one is known. When one's "zeal" borders on arrogance and ad hominem is used so quickly in a conversation (no doubt to bully the other person), it says a lot about that person's walk. Now, please don't confuse disagreement in a friendly manner in that category. I was not placing you in the former category.

You will find more members here who believe as we do, so if you want to consider us pharasetical for disagreeing with you,

Well, first, the majority doesn't determine the truth.

As to the second point, I most certainly do not consider all those who disagree with me "Pharisees", as I have struggled to say over and over again...

It is not merely disagreeing with me that brings the Gospel story to mind. It is the manner one uses to silence their interlocuter. We can agree to disagree and still wish each other the best. Have you noticed my "hello's" to several long time members of this board? Jasoncrans and StoveBolts and Pizzaguy and others? Do you think they agree with me on everything I have posted??? HA! I am Catholic. Of course they don't. However, we all have come to respect each other and honor the other's opinions as we each continue our walks in Christ. We have come to appreciate each others different opinions, but realize the other is walking in Christ by the way they act.

So go ahead, disagree with me. Tell me why. Keep it nice. I am telling you from EXPERIENCE that bickering and arguing is detrimental to one's spiritual walk, my friend. That's why I had to leave before. I was giving tit for tat too often.

Regards

 

[Sparkey]

For some reason after reading this I feel taller.

Sparrows are sold for next to nothing. This is a wonder to me, that the Lord should provide so well for each of us. What were they being sold for, may I ask?

 

[francisdesales]

I guess I'll jump in by saying you're all right and you're all wrong and you all can choose which one makes you the most angry or happy. I would like to say, To Joe (Francisdesalles), that I missed you very much, but that does not mean I don't Love Mitspa or thisnumberisdisconnected. Indeed I love you all but I'm feeling a bit left out because nobody has taken the time to beat me with your impressive verbal swords. So come on, let's have at it, I promise I'll only use one hand so as not to disrupt the circle we are all fighting in. So what's the issue? It doesn't matter which side I take since with the power of semantics I can argue either effectively.

Hello, Childeye, I have missed our discussions as well. I could always count on you to make me chuckle!

It's nice to see so many people still here.

Take care,

Joe

 

[francisdesales]

Yes, it is dangerous not just to the unsaved by to the one is truly saved. The word can be twisted in this way. "He will not nor will anything else to able to remove you from the hand of the Father BUT you can jump out!" This is a lie! Not because the Lord takes away your ability to make choices but because the Holy Spirit is there to stay and He will keep you. The flame may be small because it has not been fed but the flame remains. You cannot undo what the Lord has done.

As one of our spiritual leaders on this forum has said. "The blood of our Saviour is more powerful than our sin." (para.)

I think we certainly can "jump out". The Bible is full of examples of people who presumed otherwise. Since I have just studied Jeremiah, that example comes to mind. The Jews, the People of God, thought that God would keep the Temple and Jerusalem safe. False prophets built on that false theology. They ignored Jeremiah - and they were wrong. I don't see God's ways changing with us Christians, either. A simple reading of 2 Peter 2 would give a strong example for Christians - if you think we are any better than the Jews...

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22


Clearly, we STILL rely on God's mercy and love. The example above speaks of a 'saved' individual who had 'escaped the pollutions of the world (I am aware of only one such way to do this...) and then became entangled AGAIN - better if they never had known the ways of righteousness. That is POWERFUL testimony against OSAS.

Regards

 

[childeye]

Well there is a truth and those who have it are free! Those who do not believe and seek to make there own truth are never going to have the confidence of true faith. Now some scripture is written for the children, the "carnal" and some it written for the "spiritual" the babes and children should not try to teach the adults, a carnal christians is well described in scripture. They do not understand that truth dwells in the spirit. "For we are those who worship God in spirit and have no confidence in the flesh" So if you see yourself as a natural man, and you set your mind one earthly things? You have no biblical right to teach or correct others. How can a man in the flesh, jugde spiritual things?

Now childeye, I do not see that you have taken a position of judging others? And this is my main reason for posting on this certain tread? That those I see trying to get the twig out of others eyes, have big logs in their own, and dont even know it! Hypocricy was the Lords main charge against the religious class of His day, Its leaven has defiled the church for years.
This is the first and great warning of scripture!

I saw a man lying in the street, dressed in dirty stinky rags, bleeding from his many sores. He cracked a smile as I approached him and I saw he had few teeth. As a tear flowed down my face, he said, "don't worry about me my son, God is not mad at me". I asked "why?" He answered, "because He feels most sorry for me".
I love the things you write Mitspa. What do you think of this?

 

[childeye]

Hello, Childeye, I have missed our discussions as well. I could always count on you to make me chuckle!

It's nice to see so many people still here.

Take care,

Joe

I'm sorry you were hurt Joe. Please don't go away.

 

[Mitspa]

Has it occured to you that you misunderstand what I am saying? Why do you need to state that I am pretending and bearing false witness???

You stated "the law if of faith". I asked which law. You didn't give me a verse you were referring to, did you. No.

Paul speaks of both the Law of Love/Grace and the Mosaic Law in his letters. If you think that is pretending, false witness, etc., I suggest you may want to cool your jets and ask me to simply explain myself without giving me your self-righteous banter.

Which Scripture are you talking about???

I have found that people who make such statements have no intent on listening to anyone else but those who perfectly agree with them. As such, apologize or we are done.

First I did not, nor where we in any way speaking of the law of faith! That is just dishonest.
It dont feel very good having the law laid upon "you" does it? It seems to have a effect of seperation from the confidence of faith, does it not? And you know well the scripture I quoted was that "the law is not of faith", and there is no debate about its context or meaning. So my point to you and others is the same? You who preach the law do not keep the law, actually in your attempts to misquote scripture, you are breaking the very law you are trying to lay upon others. Now as far as your offense at my manners, i would ask you to look at your own post, even this one has insults and accusations laced thoughtout it! Do you not see your own hypocricy?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

from what you Just said, here is the witness to an unbeliever," if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, He will save you only as long as you believe, He will forsake you if you falter."

Hi.

Define 'falter' and I'll say whether you're understanding my POV correctly or not. Falter can mean one of two things. Which do you mean?

We need to be exact in our witness to the lost. if you believe on Jesus Christ for your salvation He will NEVER forsake you. No matter what you act like in the Future.

Including if you disown him? Paul says this:

"If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself" (2 Timothy 2:12-13 NIV)

So the question is not what will happen to you if you disown him (as opposed to being unfaithful within a relationship with Christ--vs.13). The question is, "can a genuine believer decide to disown Christ?"

I have seen a plethora of solid biblical answers given to you. I pray that your dilemma and your questions on this subject are answered by the Lord for you sometime. From what i have read though, I see Him Screaming for your attention.

Actually, I'm screaming for the attention of ANYONE in this forum. Nobody listens. It's discouraging. Nobody answers the points I bring up with thoughtful insight or honest inquiry. I'm used to it though. Hardened indoctrination, hands firmly clasped over the ears, seems to the be trait of the church. I know about it because I used to be hindered that way myself.

I have provided solid material to challenge this hardened doctrine of OSAS that says even unbelief can't remove you from salvation. Nobody talks about it calmly and honestly, they just revert to their pat, doctrinal answers. I'm speaking in broad generalities, of course.

This isn't a discussion about whether 1 + 1 = 2. Subjects like that don't need examination and can be forcibly defended. But this is an honest, reasonable question in the things of God: "Can a true believer still be saved even if he disowns Christ? Is that possible to do?" On one hand salvation is indeed by the grace of God. On the other it's still conditioned on placing your trust in the blood of Christ. So what happens when a person stops meeting the condition of trusting in the blood? I think the answer to that is a logical given. The real question in my mind is, "is that really possible for a true believer to do that?" From what I'm gathering most think, 'yes', but that it can't reverse the hope of salvation even though it was the condition for salvation in the first place.

Frank, honest, levelheaded, non-contentious thought, IMO. The world respects this. They do not respect contentious 'that's just the way it is, take it or leave it' hardened argumentation. And neither do I (now).

 

[Sparkey]

How amiable [are] thy tabernacles, O LORD of hosts! see Psalms 84:1,2,3 (replies welcomed here: Are we 'tabernacles' yet?) in the Gen Talk forum.

Blessed [are] they that dwell in thy house: they will be still praising thee. Selah. Psalms 84:4

For he will deliver you from the snare of the fowler and from the deadly pestilence. Psalms 91:2-3

No evil shall be allowed to befall you, no plague come near your tent. Psalms 91:10,11

Because he holds fast to me in love, I will deliver him; I will protect him, because he knows my name. Psalms 91:14

Then I called on the name of the LORD: "O LORD, I pray, deliver my soul!" Psalms 116:4,5

 

[John Zain]

The confusion comes in with experiential sanctification...
This is where the "ifs" come in for believers.
But it never tampers with Justification or Positional Sanctification.

Yeahbutski ...
Thou art not heeding the warnings that talk about eternal life!
There are some, you know.
Better dig 'em out, and post 'em up on your favorite wall.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, it is dangerous not just to the unsaved by to the one is truly saved. The word can be twisted in this way. "He will not nor will anything else to able to remove you from the hand of the Father BUT you can jump out!" This is a lie! Not because the Lord takes away your ability to make choices but because the Holy Spirit is there to stay and He will keep you. The flame may be small because it has not been fed but the flame remains. You cannot undo what the Lord has done.

As one of our spiritual leaders on this forum has said. "The blood of our Saviour is more powerful than our sin." (para.)

So, your vote would be for, 'no', it's impossible for a true beleiver, changed into a new creation to then disown him? Correct? If so, any thoughtful insight into it would be welcome. That's how we learn.

 

[Mitspa]

I saw a man lying in the street, dressed in dirty stinky rags, bleeding from his many sores. He cracked a smile as I approached him and I saw he had few teeth. As a tear flowed down my face, he said, "don't worry about me my son, God is not mad at me". I asked "why?" He answered, "because He feels most sorry for me".
I love the things you write Mitspa. What do you think of this?

Well I think you should love these good things, because they do grow from ground that has been well broken. I hope to lift up others to new places of Gods love and grace with those things I write. I have also been called to defend Gods little broken ones, and protect them from false brotheren. I know that many do not understand the big deal between law and grace? But it is the difference between life and death for those it is laid upon. God has shown me the reason Paul fought so dillengently against the law being laid upon the believer. Please allow that my zeal is that which God has given me? I hope it does not take from the kindness and love I feel for Gods People.

 

[Deborah13]

I think we certainly can "jump out". The Bible is full of examples of people who presumed otherwise. Since I have just studied Jeremiah, that example comes to mind. The Jews, the People of God, thought that God would keep the Temple and Jerusalem safe. False prophets built on that false theology. They ignored Jeremiah - and they were wrong. I don't see God's ways changing with us Christians, either. A simple reading of 2 Peter 2 would give a strong example for Christians - if you think we are any better than the Jews...

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire. 2 Peter 2:20-22


Clearly, we STILL rely on God's mercy and love. The example above speaks of a 'saved' individual who had 'escaped the pollutions of the world (I am aware of only one such way to do this...) and then became entangled AGAIN - better if they never had known the ways of righteousness. That is POWERFUL testimony against OSAS.

Regards

All that scripture says to me is that a born again person can sin and sin badly. They will come to wish that they hadn't, the Lord will discipline them and it will not be pleasant. The shame of a repentant heart is a painful experience.