Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Mitspa]

I am not going to disagree that the Law is not of faith. So here is an example from the Law that describes our redemption and justification.

Isreal was held in bondage to Egypt physically prior to the Exodus and parting of the Red Sea. Egypt can also be used in a spiritual sense as one being held in slavery to sin. Israel pleaded for God to save them, and God called them out. Much like we recognized we were sinners and in need of a Saviour. But the devil doesn't want that and will hunt us down and chase after us to bring us back to bondage, much like Pharaoh did to Israel.

The parting of the Red Sea is rich with pictures of and the shadows of our Messiah is printed all over this. One of my favoritist lines is this Exodus 14:13 But Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand by and see the salvation of the Lord which He will accomplish for you today; for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you will never see them again forever."

Then the immersion into the Red Sea is much our baptism as stated in 1 Corinthians 10:1-3 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ."

For some, who say that Israel had to obey the Law of Moses to be justified, this is proof they were saved in the same way you and I are.

Now they have crossed the Red Sea and what do they do? They sing praises in Exodus 15 praising God for delivering them. Another illustration of when we become believers and the freedom of being delivered from the bondage and slavery of sin. Now let's stop here. Some theology and doctrines teach now you are saved, let's stand by the sea shore and praise God for our redemption and there isn't anything else we have to do. But that's not where the story ends.

They continued on to Mt. Sinai and were given teachings and instructions, and a complete revelation of God as how he desires us to live our lives. But the story continues, and the testing in the wilderness and the trials and tribulations of such. Mt. Sinai was given to prepare them for the time in the wilderness. Then they reached the promised land (heaven).

Galatians was written because they were putting Mt. Sinai ahead of the Red Sea and being justified that way which is impossible. But that is putting the horse before the cart. Faith must always precede obedience. There is no other way. There is a progression of steps we must take as believers in our walk with Christ. It's not just about walking through the Red Sea singing praises and not move forward. He wants us to continue onto Mt. Sinai. I believe that is who the NT warnings are being written to. Those who do not walk towards that life of obedience and servitude, and just want to stay by the Red Sea and sing. Not that singing and praising God isn't good, he just wants us to move forward.

That's where I am coming from. Thanks for listening.

Ryan this would all make sense if not for the New Testament and the clear and evident witness of scripture.
Of course one can reason along the lines you have reasoned. This is mans reasoning. No not the gospel at all! One must become a fool to be made wise, weak to be made strong.
And Paul confronts the very things you are trying to teach.
So not sure that you have left me any room to reprove your doctrines, but I just say that which Paul said. If any man or even an Angel from heaven teaches any other gospel than that which he taught they are cursed.
He goes on to say that he is amazed that they are turning FROM THE GRACE OF GOD into a different gospel.
This epistle is an absolute rejection of what you are trying to affirm.

 

[Mitspa]

I understand that the curse of the law was paid for by the Christ, the lamb of God. I understand that it must be an unblemished lamb. I confess I am a sinner. But how does someone else paying for my sins cleanse my conscience?

Well this was not some guy named Randy!
This was God who came in the flesh of man, to redeem that which He made. Its His planet its His rules and he decides who and how He forgives! Your issue seems to be you think you are as God and know good and evil? does that ring a bell?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I was wondering about what you were saying about brain surgery and hope that you are okay.

Now that I have the time to explain...

Shortly after joining the forum somebody asked me if I ever became a brain surgeon because the Jethro Bodine of Beverly Hillbillies fame wanted to be a brain surgeon in an episode. I actually don't remember that episode but I decided in my on-line life I would be a brain surgeon and drop into the forums between brain surgeries.

If I was undergoing brain surgery I sure would want the support of people like you who care enough to take the initiative to ask about it. :yes

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well this was not some guy named Randy!

I thought it was some guy named Ralph for a long time.

Your issue seems to be you think you are as God and know good and evil? does that ring a bell?

You talking about all of us posting in the theology folder?

 

[childeye]

Oh you beautiful and Loving people of God. Thank you for all of your wonderful responses, full of insight and gifted wisdom. I think all of your answers are full of Truth. And before any thought that I am practicing flattery enters the air, I would like to show you why I say that you are all full of Truth and why I posed the two questions.

If you recall I had asked of what am I guilty of? And how does the blood of Jesus cleanse my conscience?

Both of these questions are closely related. For if I do not know what I did wrong there can be no sincere sorrow. There can be no getting right before God. For if He asked me what I am sorry for and I cannot tell Him, then I am still estranged and my apology is invalid. Nor is there any true repentance. So it is that I have seen that mankind while innocent in the Garden, did fall prey to Satan's cunning and subtle slander. And that in the very moment they considered that God was a god that would lie to us and keep us down so as to lift himself up, their hearts and minds were experiencing distrust for the first time. And the Loving Image of our Loving and Holy Father was questioned as falsehood. And so we read in Romans 1 where men had traded the Truth for a lie and that when we knew God we did not esteem Him as God and likened Him to man, even though all that was good in us was His Spirit. We thought ourselves wise rather than thanking Him and in such vanity we became estranged from God. Now I know the very seed and root of the black thing that sits upon my conscience. I would beat myself to death if only I could take back the pain of betrayal that I had handed my Loving God who is Jealous for me. I do know what I am sorry for.

Now for the second question, How does the blood of Jesus cleanse my guilty conscience? How does someone elses paying for my sin make my guilt go away?

The answer is a bit more complex. If you recall, Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil which he first sowed in the Garden of Eden. He also came to destroy the enmity between man and God. For this is the work of the devil as can be seen in many scriptures such as Job. And in Revelations where it is said he makes accusation continually before God. But Satan is a liar and consequently a hypocrit. On one hand he tempts and on the other he accuses and like a bookie he plays both ends against the middle unto his profit while he demeans both man and God in Whose Image we are made.

Now some may not like what I say here, but I believe the law was a trap for Satan. For we know the law was administered by angels. As the guardian Cherub the devil could have the keys to hell and the power of death. So I believe he usurped the law to accuse and to tempt and that he is a legalist. He thinks men are to serve the law rather than the law serve men. But when the time was right, God sent His Word made flesh. And because Satan did not comprehend mercy, he did not see his own demise in crucifying this man according to the law. The scriptures that back this up are many. Satan entered into Judas, and the vineyard keepers saw the son and thought they could get his inheritance. Quite telling is that he nailed to the cross the ordinances that were against us and made a spectacle of Principalities and powers. But my favorite is in Revelations where it is said that Jesus was caught up to heaven and men overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb and by their testimony. What I mean to point out is that the cross was meant to defeat Satan and his works. And it was Satan being the guardian Cherub, who used the law to crucify the innocent, even the very son of God. I don't think he saw it coming when Jesus said, "forgive them Father for they know not what they do", and "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?" And after this was witnessed in heaven, war broke out in heaven and Satan was cast out. So it is that Satan was made a spectacle of and by his own hand he was shown to be a merciless self righteous overzealous prosecutor. Again my point is to say that the cross is what was Satan's demise.

Okay. Now when I first heard the Gospel (Christ crucified) I believed that I had seen a Love that transcended all that is comprehensible. And I wondered whether Jesus meant it when he said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do". It took me most of my life to finally believe it. For I saw that at the beginning of man's fall it was an innocent mankind that had been duped by a creature far more cunning. And I also found that as I believed this I began to forgive everyone for everything since to condemn anyone only meant that I myself was saying that Adam and Eve as well as myself meant to slander God on purpose, and therefore I was still believing the original lie that God was unholy. And that is how I was able to have a cleansed conscience. That is how we overcome Satan by the blood of Christ and by our testimony.

I say this because at the heart of all division, including on this forum, is Satan playing the ends against the middle. And it becomes apparrant in our theology when at the end of our reasoning we think we must blame either God or mankind for what happened, when in fact it was neither. It was simply Satan playing both ends against the middle. So I hope you see that all of you are right in whatever stage of belief you are in, and I am not patronizing any of you.

I feared the consuimg fire for my deeds were wicked, but he saw my sickness and healed me.

 

[Mitspa]

Thanks Edward, I want to also bring up some scripture of Pauls in Romans that changed my whole understanding of the gospel. First God is through with mans judgment, no man is just nor does any man have the ability to understand or be righteous. This is the purpose of the law! To shut the mouth of every man, to prove that none is righteous, NO NOT ONE!

So God takes all judgment of righteousness out of the hands of man, and says That Now He will show the world HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAT HE IS RIGHTEOUS IN MAKING THE SINNER RIGHTEOUS.

so here is the rub with man? It is easier for a harlot to accept Gods righteousness than for those who think they have the ability to judge what is right and wrong. They go about to establish their own. They have not submitted to God righteousness.

See if God says that it is a righteous thing to make a sinner righteous, then it is unrighteous to attempt to change Gods righteous act. See God said it is righteous to make edward righteous. Now who will dare to contend with Gods judgement? And it is the most righteous thing we can do to believe in that righteous act that God did, when He made us righteous. To go back to law is to reject Gods righteousness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Now between the Word and the Holy Spirit you must find and believe the truth for yourself. No one can make you believe in the Power of The Blood. We can tell and preach the truth, but no one can accept the Blood for others.

Interesting. I was thinking this very same thing today (while doing brain surgeries) after I read his post at lunch. The love of God can't be taught. It has to be experienced to be effectual. I was thinking, we all can share what we think we should, but prolly the best thing we can do is pray for you like Paul prayed:

"...I pray that you...may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge" (Colossians 3:17-19 NIV)

You've got the knowledge, now you need a profound revelation of Christ's love--his love expressed for you in the giving up of his own life so that you might live and reign with him in the life he lives.

Edit: Sorry, didn't mean to this sound like I'm talking to Mitspa. This is for you, childeye.

 

[Mitspa]

I thought it was some guy named Ralph for a long time.



You talking about all of us posting in the theology folder?

No you can take that sin upon yourself if you like. I have been to the Cross and have been broken from thinking I should put my own judgment above Gods.

Until one becomes a fool, he cannot be made wise. This is not just some religious speak that Paul made up to sound humble.It is a fact that the natural mind, cannot understand the things of Gods Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thanks Edward, I want to also bring up some scripture of Pauls in Romans that changed my whole understanding of the gospel.

[...]

So God takes all judgment of righteousness out of the hands of man, and says That Now He will show the world HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAT HE IS RIGHTEOUS IN MAKING THE SINNER RIGHTEOUS.

I think he is referring to this passage:

"25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:25-26 NIV)

 

[childeye]

Now that I have the time to explain...

Shortly after joining the forum somebody asked me if I ever became a brain surgeon because the Jethro Bodine of Beverly Hillbillies fame wanted to be a brain surgeon in an episode. I actually don't remember that episode but I decided in my on-line life I would be a brain surgeon and drop into the forums between brain surgeries.

If I was undergoing brain surgery I sure would want the support of people like you who care enough to take the initiative to ask about it. :yes

I often wondered why you were so good at picking people's brains on this forum.

 

[Mitspa]

I think he is referring to this passage:

"25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:25-26 NIV)

Well that is part of what I said, but the point was that God is righteous in making the sinner righteous, he decides and it would be unrighteous to go back to the law and be counted as a sinner.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, I thought that was you in your avatar until I seen "No Country for Old men" recently. LOL.

Sometimes it seems odd to read your words with the pic of that guy hanging there!

Well, except for the hair, the good looks (so the women say he has), and the quiet force of his personality, I've pretty well got him pegged.

I picked him as an avatar for a reason. I really like the movie (saw it on TV so I don't know if it's fitting for a Christian to watch on DVD). Oddly enough I found myself liking the guy, even though he was a murderous creep, because he was so unmoved, and so calm, cool, and matter of factly about what he was pursuing. I want to be to the gospel what he was to his murderous agenda.

So, go ahead. Flip a coin.

 

[farouk]

Well, except for the hair, the good looks (so the women say he has), and the quiet force of his personality, I've pretty well got him pegged.

I picked him as an avatar for a reason. I really like the movie (saw it on TV so I don't know if it's fitting for a Christian to watch on DVD). Oddly enough I found myself liking the guy, even though he was a murderous creep, because he was so unmoved, and so calm, cool, and matter of factly about what he was pursuing. I want to be to the gospel what he was to his murderous agenda.

So, go ahead. Flip a coin.

Yes, Jethro, I though he was you, too...

 

[Mitspa]

Thanks Edward, I want to also bring up some scripture of Pauls in Romans that changed my whole understanding of the gospel. First God is through with mans judgment, no man is just nor does any man have the ability to understand or be righteous. This is the purpose of the law! To shut the mouth of every man, to prove that none is righteous, NO NOT ONE!

So God takes all judgment of righteousness out of the hands of man, and says That Now He will show the world HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, THAT HE IS RIGHTEOUS IN MAKING THE SINNER RIGHTEOUS.

so here is the rub with man? It is easier for a harlot to accept Gods righteousness than for those who think they have the ability to judge what is right and wrong. They go about to establish their own. They have not submitted to God righteousness.

See if God says that it is a righteous thing to make a sinner righteous, then it is unrighteous to attempt to change Gods righteous act. See God said it is righteous to make edward righteous. Now who will dare to contend with Gods judgement? And it is the most righteous thing we can do to believe in that righteous act that God did, when He made us righteous. To go back to law is to reject Gods righteousness.

The book of Romans is an amazing book, Rom 10:4 For Christ is THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to everyone that believes.

What God has justified, no one ,no devil, no preacher can condemn if one knows the true gospel.

 

[childeye]

You've got the knowledge, now you need a profound revelation of Christ's love--his love expressed for you in the giving up of his own life so that you might live and reign with him in the life he lives.

Edit: Sorry, didn't mean to this sound like I'm talking to Mitspa. This is for you, childeye.

Thanks for thinking of me. Have you read post#815?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, Jethro, I though he was you, too...

I noticed in a forum I was in before this one that I connected what the person was saying in their post with the perceived personality of the person they posted in their avatar. I distinctly remember how I had formed my overall feelings for the opinions of the person who had Christopher Walken as their avatar, and how that seemed to cause me to respect what he was saying more. That's why I don't use Carrot Top as my avatar.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The book of Romans is an amazing book, Rom 10:4 For Christ is THE END OF THE LAW for righteousness to everyone that believes.

What God has justified, no one ,no devil, no preacher can condemn if one knows the true gospel.

...and lives by it.

 

[Deborah13]

I feared the consuimg fire for my deeds were wicked, but he saw my sickness and healed me.

Hmm...there's alot here.

I can certainly agree with you about what happened at the cross. Jesus' victory over satan.
I also can agree that if satan was aware of what would be accomplished at the cross he would not have wanted Jesus dead. He must have been (and still is) angry about being outwitted. Too bad for the loser.

However the law being a trap for satan I can't get any understanding of that.
Interesting thoughts you have.

 

[childeye]

Hmm...there's alot here.

I can certainly agree with you about what happened at the cross. Jesus' victory over satan.
I also can agree that if satan was aware of what would be accomplished at the cross he would not have wanted Jesus dead. He must have been (and still is) angry about being outwitted. Too bad for the loser.

However the law being a trap for satan I can't get any understanding of that.
Interesting thoughts you have.

Well thanks. I confess I am somewhat disappointed. I have shown with self-evident Truth and scripture what the guilt is and where it comes from and How Christ cleanses the conscience. I have uncovered the original lie and how it still exists in our theology doing the devil's work. I had hoped to rejoice with someone.

I don't know how only I see that the law was a trap for Satan since their would be no cross to defeat Satan without the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Thanks for thinking of me. Have you read post#815?

I have now.