Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Deborah13]

Great points. I am not sure Cain lied when he asked,"Am I my brothers keeper?" But his attitude was certainly not right.

I see this as Cain lying to God. God asked him where Abel was, Cain knew where Abel was and said "Am I my brothers keeper?" That was a lie. Avoidance of the truth by playing word games is lying in my book.

"where's your sister?" "why should I know?" and he locked her in the closet I think a parent would consider that as being lied to.

 

[Ryan]

Well ryan, i do believe you have a sincere desire to please God and that you do desire to keep the law of God. There is no reason that a honest man should ever doubt that he can understand the gospel. First back to the issue in the book of Gal. Paul makes the point in clear terms that as one receives Christ by faith, that one must continue in Him by faith, the law is not of faith. Paul makes this statement" having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh.
I have alot to say on this issue, but must get to work.
I hope we can have an honest discussion of the topic?
Mitspa

I am not going to disagree that the Law is not of faith. So here is an example from the Law that describes our redemption and justification.

Isreal was held in bondage to Egypt physically prior to the Exodus and parting of the Red Sea. Egypt can also be used in a spiritual sense as one being held in slavery to sin. Israel pleaded for God to save them, and God called them out. Much like we recognized we were sinners and in need of a Saviour. But the devil doesn't want that and will hunt us down and chase after us to bring us back to bondage, much like Pharaoh did to Israel.

The parting of the Red Sea is rich with pictures of and the shadows of our Messiah is printed all over this. One of my favoritist lines is this Exodus 14:13 But Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand by and see the salvation of the Lord which He will accomplish for you today; for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you will never see them again forever."

Then the immersion into the Red Sea is much our baptism as stated in 1 Corinthians 10:1-3 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ."

For some, who say that Israel had to obey the Law of Moses to be justified, this is proof they were saved in the same way you and I are.

Now they have crossed the Red Sea and what do they do? They sing praises in Exodus 15 praising God for delivering them. Another illustration of when we become believers and the freedom of being delivered from the bondage and slavery of sin. Now let's stop here. Some theology and doctrines teach now you are saved, let's stand by the sea shore and praise God for our redemption and there isn't anything else we have to do. But that's not where the story ends.

They continued on to Mt. Sinai and were given teachings and instructions, and a complete revelation of God as how he desires us to live our lives. But the story continues, and the testing in the wilderness and the trials and tribulations of such. Mt. Sinai was given to prepare them for the time in the wilderness. Then they reached the promised land (heaven).

Galatians was written because they were putting Mt. Sinai ahead of the Red Sea and being justified that way which is impossible. But that is putting the horse before the cart. Faith must always precede obedience. There is no other way. There is a progression of steps we must take as believers in our walk with Christ. It's not just about walking through the Red Sea singing praises and not move forward. He wants us to continue onto Mt. Sinai. I believe that is who the NT warnings are being written to. Those who do not walk towards that life of obedience and servitude, and just want to stay by the Red Sea and sing. Not that singing and praising God isn't good, he just wants us to move forward.

That's where I am coming from. Thanks for listening.

 

[childeye]

I see this as Cain lying to God. God asked him where Abel was, Cain knew where Abel was and said "Am I my brothers keeper?" That was a lie. Avoidance of the truth by playing word games is lying in my book.

"where's your sister?" "why should I know?" and he locked her in the closet I think a parent would consider that as being lied to.

I stand corrected and bow to your correction. Now perhaps you can tell me where my brain is, how did I miss that?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Excellent, esp. sentence 1...

Jesus FURTHERS what God expects from His followers in Matt 5:

"You have heard it said, but I say..."

I almost went down this road, but I decided to let it come up in discussion if that we're to happen. You've handled it nicely.

As you point out, as holy and righteous and spiritual as the standard of the law is, walking in the Spirit is even a higher standard than that. As another example, under the law you have the right to exact 'an eye for an eye'. That is the righteousness of God's justice. But for us mere mortals Christ has called us to a higher standard of righteousness that forgoes that lawful right in the interest of mercy. "Mercy triumphs over justice" (James 2:13 NIV). Imagine telling a Pharisee that NOT keeping the law in regard to an 'eye for an eye' is actually a greater measure of righteousness, and one that can only be done through the Spirit.

So, not only did the Pharisees rely on a standard of righteousness that no once can live up to, but one that actually represents a narrower, dumb-downed version, if you will, of God's righteousness. Double whammy for the self-righteous legalist. But life and joy for the Spirit-filled person who fulfills both. Not perfectly, but in increasing measure as they grow up into Christ's character through a continuing faith in his blood.

 

[childeye]

I understand that the curse of the law was paid for by the Christ, the lamb of God. I understand that it must be an unblemished lamb. I confess I am a sinner. But how does someone else paying for my sins cleanse my conscience?

 

[childeye]

I almost went down this road, but I decided to let it come up in discussion if that we're to happen. You've handled it nicely.

As you point out, as holy and righteous and spiritual as the standard of the law is, walking in the Spirit is even a higher standard than that. As another example, under the law you have the right to exact 'an eye for an eye'. That is the righteousness of God's justice. But for us mere mortals Christ has called us to a higher standard of righteousness that forgoes that lawful right in the interest of mercy. "Mercy triumphs over justice" (James 2:13 NIV). Imagine telling a Pharisee that NOT keeping the law in regard to an 'eye for an eye' is actually a greater measure of righteousness, and one that can only be done through the Spirit.

So, not only did the Pharisees rely on a standard of righteousness that no once can live up to, but one that actually represents a narrower, dumb-downed version, if you will, of God's righteousness. Double whammy for the self-righteous legalist. But life and joy for the Spirit-filled person who fulfills both. Not perfectly, but in increasing measure as they grow up into Christ's character through a continuing faith in his blood.

I like your post here Jethro bodine. I was wondering about what you were saying about brain surgery and hope that you are okay.

 

[Deborah13]

Thanks Mitspa for explaining your PM. I think we are even, since I have already answered your PM and only now am reading this. A good lesson as to why we need mercy and understanding up front and to give people the beneift of the doubt no matter what. So let's put that behind us.

Yes it is true that something had changed in how we regarded ourselves and how we regarded God after eating of the knowledge of good and evil. If I am not mistaken, Gr8grace also went deeper and remarked that our faith was compromised when we even considered disobeying God. To me this is self evident and Ryan also points this out well in post #776 by saying that faith precedes obedience, subsequently lack of faith precedes disobedience. So here we see two things happen in the fall. One is lack of faith and the result is a sinful condition (separation from God) and a defiled conscience (guilt). Hence we cannot stand before God with a clean conscience and our sin is ever before His eyes. Having established that, I believe we are now ready to walk between the two halfs of the Lamb that has been split in two as a sin offering and a guilt offering.

And that leads us back to my first question which was, How exactly does the blood of the Lamb cleanse my conscience and make me Holy and Blameless before God? Anybody?

The cross, the blood of the Lamb, is what God sees when He looks at us. The cross is between our sin and God's eyes.
We can look to the OT to understand how this works. In two different sacrifices, one for the nation the other personal.

The priest would go into the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the ark of the covenant. Inside the ark were the letters written on stone (the 10 commandments). When God looked He saw the blood of the sacrifice rather than the law.
In the second, personal sin offering, the sinner would place his hands on the sacrifice imparting his sin to the animal sacrifice and the blood of the sacrifice was shed in exchange for the sinners. This was by instructions given to Moses directing from God.

It is the same. Jesus blood in place of ours.
The difference is that the covering for personal sin in the OT was temporal, only until the next sin and then must be repeated. A conciousness of sin and thus guilt and condemnation as being always very close.
The blood of our Saviour is not temporal it is eternal. It does only cover from one sin to the next. Blood of the Lamb is power of over sin.
Law keeps one looking to myself, am I doing or not doing.
Grace says keeping looking at the Lamb that died for you, having full confidence that what He did at the cross was sufficient for your redemption, justification, and therefore, salvation.

All is my opinion and view.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And that leads us back to my first question which was, How exactly does the blood of the Lamb cleanse my conscience and make me Holy and Blameless before God? Anybody?

God's forgiveness is what makes your conscience clean. You have to grasp the power of the love he has for you as he has expressed that love through the forgiveness of your sins to then experience the cleanness of that forgiveness. Mercy changes people...humble people who know they are nothing without it.

God's love changes people, not sacrifices. The sacrifice is the legal requirement for blood God the Father demands for sin. Because that legal requirement has been satisfied in Christ, God can now extend his loving forgiveness to those who will receive it. And that's what we need to concentrate on.

So, don't focus on the necessary legal implications of Christ's sacrifice. Focus on the love of God that flows to mankind because the righteous requirements of God's justice have been satisfied by God himself through the blood of Christ. There's nothing more powerful than knowing the love of God in the forgiveness of your sins. Nothing. It is the very engine that drives the Spirit-filled, fruit bearing Christian life. Those who are acutely aware of the forgiveness they have received, and how undeserved they are of that forgiveness, they are the one's who serve God through the characteristics of the Spirit he has placed in them.


"Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
15 O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
16 For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would
give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

18 By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
19 Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar."

(Psalm 51:14-19 NASB)

 

[Deborah13]

I stand corrected and bow to your correction. Now perhaps you can tell me where my brain is, how did I miss that?

LOL, we miss things. This one is minor compared to many I have missed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I like your post here Jethro bodine. I was wondering about what you were saying about brain surgery and hope that you are okay.

Performing them, not receiving them, lol. I'll explain later.

And thank you.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The cross, the blood of the Lamb, is what God sees when He looks at us. The cross is between our sin and God's eyes.
We can look to the OT to understand how this works. In two different sacrifices, one for the nation the other personal.

The priest would go into the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the ark of the covenant. Inside the ark were the letters written on stone (the 10 commandments). When God looked He saw the blood of the sacrifice rather than the law.
In the second, personal sin offering, the sinner would place his hands on the sacrifice imparting his sin to the animal sacrifice and the blood of the sacrifice was shed in exchange for the sinners. This was by instructions given to Moses directing from God.

It is the same. Jesus blood in place of ours.
The difference is that the covering for personal sin in the OT was temporal, only until the next sin and then must be repeated. A conciousness of sin and thus guilt and condemnation as being always very close.
The blood of our Saviour is not temporal it is eternal. It does only cover from one sin to the next. Blood of the Lamb is power of over sin.
Law keeps one looking to myself, am I doing or not doing.
Grace says keeping looking at the Lamb that died for you, having full confidence that what He did at the cross was sufficient for your redemption, justification, and therefore, salvation.

All is my opinion and view.

Yes, good point about the everlasting forgiveness of God and why our conscience can be clean even when we sin again. Unlike under the law.

 

[Deborah13]

I understand that the curse of the law was paid for by the Christ, the lamb of God. I understand that it must be an unblemished lamb. I confess I am a sinner. But how does someone else paying for my sins cleanse my conscience?

Why do you think that someone else dying for you should cleanse your conscience? If we only keep the crucified Christ before our eyes of coarse we will live in guilt, how could one not. But we are to see the risen Lord, the One who rose in victory.

If your child were drowning (which we were in sin) and you jumped into the water and saved them but in the processes you lost your own life what would you want your child to focus on. "Oh, my dad died for me, I feel so guilty, I can't let it go and move on." They continue this way through their life without joy, feeling worthless and condemning themselves, this could lead to death in the physical as well as death in the soul.

Or would you want them to remember you and that wonderful father who loved them so much that you died for them. "My dad is the greatest man I've ever known, he gave his life for me. He loved me so much. He is my example of what it means to truly love. He did not think He was wasting his life by saving mine."
In most cases, our children are a product of who they perceive themselves to be through the eyes of their parents and live accordingly.

 

[francisdesales]

The cross, the blood of the Lamb, is what God sees when He looks at us. The cross is between our sin and God's eyes.

This sentence further makes me wonder about your view regarding sanctification and "What is the POINT"?

Deborah, I think you are too focused on legality and checks/balances, rather than looking at the Son's sacrifice out of love (not out of any legal necessity or to outweigh our sins).

The priest would go into the Holy of Holies and sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice on the ark of the covenant. Inside the ark were the letters written on stone (the 10 commandments). When God looked He saw the blood of the sacrifice rather than the law.

The law commanded the sacrifice, and God was pleased when it was offered with a contrite heart. It is not the blood that pleases God, the externals. It is the offer from a humble heart. God tells us He doesn't need the blood of bulls.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Why do you think that someone else dying for you should cleanse your conscience? If we only keep the crucified Christ before our eyes of coarse we will live in guilt, how could one not. But we are to see the risen Lord, the One who rose in victory.

If your child were drowning (which we were in sin) and you jumped into the water and saved them but in the processes you lost your own life what would you want your child to focus on. "Oh, my dad died for me, I feel so guilty, I can't let it go and move on." They continue this way through their life without joy, feeling worthless and condemning themselves, this could lead to death in the physical as well as death in the soul.

Or would you want them to remember you and that wonderful father who loved them so much that you died for them. "My dad is the greatest man I've ever known, he gave his life for me. He loved me so much. He is my example of what it means to truly love. He did not think He was wasting his life by saving mine."
In most cases, our children are a product of who they perceive themselves to be through the eyes of their parents and live accordingly.

Interesting analogy.

Regards

 

[Sparkey]

I understand that the curse of the law was paid for by the Christ, the lamb of God. I understand that it must be an unblemished lamb. I confess I am a sinner. But how does someone else paying for my sins cleanse my conscience?

That question is something that deserves a lifetime of thought. Consider, "He is faithful AND just! (to cleanse us and to purge us of all unrighteousness). How can it be just that I am saved from my actions? Where's the justice in that?

Here's another one: We trade our shame for his righteousness. What kind of justice is that? Where's the balance in this? Isn't that what the scales of Justice are about? Balance! Yet it seems that Jesus, the only one who deserved to live, died. And I, who deserve to die, live? What is God thinking to declare such things as "Just".

But then I step back a bit... zoom out, way out.

What about a Father who honored his son's desire? Or a son that honored his father's wish?
--there is more to say here than I can speak, a lifetime's worth of thought.

John 17:21

And now you, sir (and yes, you madam) are no longer slaves but sons. We are shown what the business of the Father is.

 

[Deborah13]

You are correct, I was only describing the legalities as to what I see that takes place.

The condition of the heart of the repentor is what determines if the transfer takes place. The receiver's heart must be able to receive.
A hardend heart will not be able to receiver, a lying heart, a prideful heart, will not be able to receive from the Spirit of grace.

 

[Mitspa]

This is my point:

"3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:3-4 NASB)

Fulfilling and upholding the law is NOT what ended*, but that seems to be what so many in the church think as evidenced by their belief that they can continue in sin (as defined by the law--the standard of righteousness) and still expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath because, supposedly, salvation is by faith and faith alone, which is simply not true (not to be confused with justification which is by faith all by itself). Unless you or others want to argue that James was wrong when he said a faith that doesn't uphold the law (see the examples he uses) can't save a person.

This hardened indoctrination in the church makes it almost impossible for the church to see this truth. As soon as you say the word 'law' up go the hands firmly clasped on the ears as if 'law' categorically means trying to be justified by law, the old way to righteousness, little knowing that the way of the Spirit they acknowledge (but really don't understand) is how we now fulfill the requirements of the law--requirements that did not go away with the appearing of the new way of faith in Christ to be made righteous--but requirements that are upheld by the new way of faith in Christ to be made righteous.

The fruit of the Spirit--love, joy, peace, patience, long suffering, etc. is how we uphold the law of God. Is it the person who is kind, and peaceable, and loving, and self-controlled the one who is trying to sleep with your wife at her workplace? No, of course not. When a person is controlled by the fruit of the Spirit they are not fulfilling the lusts of the flesh condemned by the law, and in that way--the new way-- they are keeping, and satisfying, and upholding the requirements of the law. Now if you think that means trying to be justified by law because you want to satisfy it's requirements through the Spirit you really aren't getting the point.


* The ceremonial law is what was made obsolete and no longer needed by the work of Christ.

Again jethro you seem to state part of the truth, that we are in fact justified by faith, but then go through this long speech about how everyone is deceived but you. Now most of the mordern church teach the same doctrine you are trying to teach. Thats why all of them post the Ten Commandments and go about acting like they are trying to keep them.
Now after you big circle of unrelated discussion you come back and say that a believer must be justified by obedience to the written code of the law, "or parts of the law" what you have it down to 9 commandments, right?
So again I say without any degree of doubt that the law cannot in any way justify. Nor can the law ever make a charge of sin against those who are justified by Christ. I have taught how the law is established for its purpose, to bring us to faith in Christ. Just as Paul teaches in clear terms. Its not a issue in doubt to anyone who reads the epistles of Paul. THAT NO MAN CAN BE JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY THE LAW IS EVIDENT.
so if the law cannot justify and it can not unjustify a believer, its purpose is a witness to Gods righteousness.

Now to have this discussion in an honest way one must accept the terms of Paul? That the commandments produce evil desires in the flesh and that the law is the strength of sin.
That it is the minstry of death and condemnation. Lets start at this point and then I can show you your error. Do you accept these things as true?

 

[Mitspa]

Thanks Mitspa for explaining your PM. I think we are even, since I have already answered your PM and only now am reading this. A good lesson as to why we need mercy and understanding up front and to give people the beneift of the doubt no matter what. So let's put that behind us.

Yes it is true that something had changed in how we regarded ourselves and how we regarded God after eating of the knowledge of good and evil. If I am not mistaken, Gr8grace also went deeper and remarked that our faith was compromised when we even considered disobeying God. To me this is self evident and Ryan also points this out well in post #776 by saying that faith precedes obedience, subsequently lack of faith precedes disobedience. So here we see two things happen in the fall. One is lack of faith and the result is a sinful condition (separation from God) and a defiled conscience (guilt). Hence we cannot stand before God with a clean conscience and our sin is ever before His eyes. Having established that, I believe we are now ready to walk between the two halfs of the Lamb that has been split in two as a sin offering and a guilt offering.

And that leads us back to my first question which was, How exactly does the blood of the Lamb cleanse my conscience and make me Holy and Blameless before God? Anybody?

Well first we agree the Lamb is Christ and the His Blood was that from The Cross.
Also I must say that apart from faith no man has this Blood applied to him on his behalf. Also we must see that the blood was a spiritual payment. For the law was spiritual and that which Christ did was spiritual. So legally , in the eyes of God the Father, Christ paid the legal debt owed by man, according to what the law demanded. So when Christ paid the debt of man for sin, that the law demanded, thus fulfilling the law.

So in the righteous judgment of God the Father, he accounts that Blood to those who accept it by faith. Now as far as you accepting this truth, that is in your own heart. The Word is clear and if you have accepted and confessed Christ you should have received the Holy Spirit to testify to the Blood.
Now between the Word and the Holy Spirit you must find and believe the truth for yourself. No one can make you believe in the Power of The Blood. We can tell and preach the truth, but no one can accept the Blood for others.

 

[Mitspa]

Thanks for your response Edward. I have heard this explanation before. The problem for me, is that in my conscience I would not want somebody else to pay for my wrongdoing particularly the only begotten son of God, an innocent lamb placed on a cross of torture. I dare say I would feel guilty forever. I would rather die than live with that on my conscience. Some say that is pride, but I am not convinced it is. For to me, any wicked thief would be happy if someone else got framed for his crime, since he has no conscience. Moreover we have established what that guilt is, and it was not having faith in God. So how does Jesus' death erase my guilt?

Wow! so have you decided that you have another option?
If you were born a sinner, by Adams sin, and God has decided that it is righteous For Him to pay the price for your sin, by sending His Son to purchase you with His Blood, and you reject that because you think yourself "too moral" That you somehow have a higher sense of right and wrong than what God has seen as just? You are still thinking in terms of putting your judgment before Gods.
God has opened the Door to His mercy, He has One Condition. It is pride that would cause someone to think themselves not to need that mercy and to walk through That Door.

 

[Deborah13]

You are correct, I was only discribing the legalities as to what I see that takes place.

The condition of the heart of the repentor is what determines if the transfer takes place. The receiver's heart must be able to receive.
A hardend heart will not be able to receiver, a lying heart, a prideful heart, will not be able to receive from the Spirit of grace.

LOL, is repentor, repenter, even a word? I don't think so. So change that to confessor.