Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[childeye]

I have now.

And? That's it? Well say something about it!!! I'm bumming.

 

[Mitspa]

...and lives by it.

And lives by what the ministry of death and condemnation, written in stones? The Ten Commandments!

So what God says it death, are you saying is life?

No! the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And? That's it? Well say something about it!!! I'm bumming.

I'm still reeling from the fact you weren't really wondering how your conscience can be clean, lol.

And don't get bummed out! (Do people still get 'bummed out' these days?)

It's a serious read. I'm going to have to read it a couple of times to get a good understanding of it in order to respond intelligently and thoughtfully.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And lives by what the ministry of death and condemnation, written in stones? The Ten Commandments!

So what God says it death, are you saying is life?

No! the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ has set me free from the law of sin and death.

It's sad that you can only hear 'law' in regard to justification by the law. If only you knew how wrongly you are hearing what I've been saying. If only you knew. I know you think you are hearing and understanding perfectly, but your comments show you are hardly representing what I've been saying. Hardly. And what's truly sad is, if you ever do understand what I'm really saying I wonder if you'll have the humility to admit you really weren't hearing what I was saying and agree with it because you've been making such a great boast of how gifted you are.

I know you posted something in response to what I said earlier today. I haven't read it yet. I'm confident there'll be something to respond to, lol.

 

[Deborah13]

Well thanks. I confess I am somewhat disappointed. I have shown with self-evident Truth and scripture what the guilt is and where it comes from and How Christ cleanses the conscience. I have uncovered the original lie and how it still exists in our theology doing the devil's work. I had hoped to rejoice with someone.

I don't know how only I see that the law was a trap for Satan since their would be no cross to defeat Satan without the law.

This is true there would be no need for the cross without the law. But don't be too disappointed. You laid out your understanding in a very reasonable and logical way. It's a good argument. The problem for me is that I cannot see it this way in scripture. Spiritual things have to be seen with spiritual eyes. It's quite different than what I have seen in scripture and frankly I'll have to see what more I can find there. If I can't even though it makes some things seem to fit together.... I don't intend to ignore it. I will say that we agree on this for sure, we should not be so quick to place blame our fellowman as satan is alive and well on the planet earth and if we let him have even a crack to slide through he will, quietly, like a snake in the grass.

 

[childeye]

I'm still reeling from the fact you weren't really wondering how your conscience can be clean, lol.

And don't get bummed out! (Do people still get 'bummed out' these days?)

It's a serious read. I'm going to have to read it a couple of times to get a good understanding of it in order to respond intelligently and thoughtfully.

Call it what you like, I'm bumming. Or at least I was. I feel better after reading this.

 

[childeye]

This is true there would be no need for the cross without the law. But don't be too disappointed. You laid out your understanding in a very reasonable and logical way. It's a good argument. The problem for me is that I cannot see it this way in scripture. Spiritual things have to be seen with spiritual eyes. It's quite different than what I have seen in scripture and frankly I'll have to see what more I can find there. If I can't even though it makes some things seem to fit together.... I don't intend to ignore it. I will say that we agree on this for sure, we should not be so quick to place blame our fellowman as satan is alive and well on the planet earth and if we let him have even a crack to slide through he will, quietly, like a snake in the grass.

I guess I'll have to be patient. Forgive me for saying I feel like I'm standing with my pants down. You won't forget and leave me with my pants down, will you?

 

[Mitspa]

It's sad that you can only hear 'law' in regard to justification by the law. If only you knew how wrongly you are hearing what I've been saying. If only you knew. I know you think you are hearing and understanding perfectly, but your comments show you are hardly representing what I've been saying. Hardly. And what's truly sad is, if you ever do understand what I'm really saying I wonder if you'll have the humility to admit you really weren't hearing what I was saying and agree with it because you've been making such a great boast of how gifted you are.

I know you posted something in response to what I said earlier today. I haven't read it yet. I'm confident there'll be something to respond to, lol.

Well jethro, you seem to forget that I have spent hours going in the circle of your doctrine, and I am not moved when I hear a man teach legalism one day and then when that is exposed, throw a new coat of grace over that same false doctrine. Then act offended that I do not go alone with the overnight conversion? Now I allow that you have questions and are in a battle in your mind on some issues. If you would be honest that you do not understand some issues I could come to a more humble position with you. But I cannot or will not partake of anyones false doctrine. And as long as I see you promote legalism I must reprove these things. i have allowed that you are not teaching legalism before, and have only been disappointed when I come to the end of your doctrines, because they always end with the believer standing before the law being judged by the law.

 

[Deborah13]

I guess I'll have to be patient. Forgive me for saying I feel like I'm standing with my pants down. You won't forget and leave me with my pants down, will you?

LOL, no not on purpose.

But you could be of some help to me and maybe Jethro, too if you gave us some scriptures with each thought you have expressed. It would give me someplace to start with out working so hard at it. I know you posted some earlier but I don't want to assume anything.

 

[childeye]

Have you all seen this taken from the general talk called hidden message in Genesis 5?
This fits perfectly with my post 815.
Adam..........=............Man
Seth...........=............Appointed
Enosh.........=.............Mortal
Cainan........=.............Sorrow
Mahalalel.....=.............The Blessed God
Jared..........=.............Shall come down
Enoch.........=.............Teaching
Methuselah..=.............His Death Shall Bring
Lamech.......=.............The Despairing
Noah..........=.............Comfort

 

[Deborah13]

It's sad that you can only hear 'law' in regard to justification by the law. If only you knew how wrongly you are hearing what I've been saying. If only you knew. I know you think you are hearing and understanding perfectly, but your comments show you are hardly representing what I've been saying. Hardly. And what's truly sad is, if you ever do understand what I'm really saying I wonder if you'll have the humility to admit you really weren't hearing what I was saying and agree with it because you've been making such a great boast of how gifted you are.

I know you posted something in response to what I said earlier today. I haven't read it yet. I'm confident there'll be something to respond to, lol.

I'm am sorry but I keep hearing the same thing Mitspa is. Will you indulge me, please in answering some questions? If not that's OK just ignore if you choose.

Scenario..

Stage 1 - A young man gets saved, born again. He is truly repentant and the Holy Spirit has indwelled him. He lives several years of his life serving the Lord and in a close relationship with the Lord. He witnesses and people get saved. He goes to church and services in his community. He is walking in the Spirit.

Stage 2 - For some reason he gets involved in some sin which interfers with his walk. He isn't praying, witnessing, studying the Word. He not going to church. He's walking in the flesh.

Stage 3 - A year or so later he responds to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. He sincerely repents before God. He returns to all he was before. He is walking again in the Spirit.

So I've told you he is definitely saved during stage 1 of his life. But of coarse you can disagree, that is an option.

In your opinion. during stage 2 of his life, is he saved, unsaved, maybe maybe not saved?

Same for stage 3. Is he saved, unsaved, maybe maybe not saved?

 

[Deborah13]

Have you all seen this taken from the general talk called hidden message in Genesis 5?
This fits perfectly with my post 815.
Adam..........=............Man
Seth...........=............Appointed
Enosh.........=.............Mortal
Cainan........=.............Sorrow
Mahalalel.....=.............The Blessed God
Jared..........=.............Shall come down
Enoch.........=.............Teaching
Methuselah..=.............His Death Shall Bring
Lamech.......=.............The Despairing
Noah..........=.............Comfort

OK, but scripture for each thought in #815 would really be helpful.

 

[Free]

Here's a true story:

A person I was very close to truly loved God and was born-again. That I know for a fact. Things happened in the course of a couple of years to where they completely turned their back on God and are currently living like the world, they have been for about 15 years.

And many atheists have a similar story.

Can a person lose their salvation, can they give up, can they let go the gift once given? Yes. And that is precisely why there are so many warnings in the NT.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Again jethro you seem to state part of the truth, that we are in fact justified by faith, but then go through this long speech about how everyone is deceived but you.

Almost, Mitspa. Everyone but...me and Francis (lol).

Now most of the mordern church teach the same doctrine you are trying to teach. Thats why all of them post the Ten Commandments and go about acting like they are trying to keep them.

I wish that was true that the church is going about a concerted effort to keep the commandments. At least they would be on their way to the death that must occur before one can be born again.

What I see is a church busy about the works of a different law...a law of church attendance, worship styles, service in the church, and supporting the latest building program. I wish we could at least criticize them for trying to obey the Ten Commandments in the same way they commit themselves to those things.

Now after you big circle of unrelated discussion you come back and say that a believer must be justified by obedience to the written code of the law...

Show me where I said this, okay? I'm emboldening this so I can easily find it again and remind you to answer the question in case you don't.

..."or parts of the law" what you have it down to 9 commandments, right?

Well, since I'm not talking about being justified by the law, what's your point? Do you think somehow even nine Commandments of the Ten are not literally upheld by faith in Christ?

So again I say without any degree of doubt that the law cannot in any way justify.

Good, at least we agree about one thing. But you can't see through the lens of the hardened indoctrination of the law prevalent in the church today that we do agree. You can only hear one thing when you hear the word 'law'.

Nor can the law ever make a charge of sin against those who are justified by Christ.

So what rule did Paul use to lay a charge against the sinner at the Church of Corinth in 1 Corinthians 5? Don't blow the question off. I insist you answer it.

I have taught how the law is established for its purpose, to bring us to faith in Christ. Just as Paul teaches in clear terms. Its not a issue in doubt to anyone who reads the epistles of Paul. THAT NO MAN CAN BE JUSTIFIED BEFORE GOD BY THE LAW IS EVIDENT.
so if the law cannot justify and it can not unjustify a believer, its purpose is a witness to Gods righteousness.

...and a witness to (man's) unrighteousness. Even after faith in Christ it still defines and exposes unrighteous behavior. Or are you going to argue that somehow adultery is no longer sinful behavior when we have faith in Christ?

Now to have this discussion in an honest way one must accept the terms of Paul? That the commandments produce evil desires in the flesh and that the law is the strength of sin.
That it is the minstry of death and condemnation. Lets start at this point and then I can show you your error. Do you accept these things as true?

Of course I do, but sadly you can't see I'm hardly arguing about these fundamental things about the law you keep hammering.


When we walk by the Spirit (not just have the Spirit) we will violate no law of God. That's how we know if we, or someone else, is walking by the Spirit, or not. I challenge you to prove to me that a person can commit adultery, or lie, or steal, etc. and be walking in the fruit of the Spirit at the same time.

This has NOTHING to do with being justified by the law as Paul speaks about that. It has everything to do with knowing if we are walking by the Spirit, or not, in accordance with the new way of being justified in Christ--faith in his blood. If you say a person can be in violation of the commandments of God that govern human relationships found in the law as a way of life and still be safe in Christ through faith, you are terribly misinformed. Faith is NOT a license to sin...the law being our fundamental measure of what sin is to even know if we're walking in the faith we boast of.

Let me guess...still hearing "we are justified by the law", right?

I think the main problem is you claimed in the superiority of your giftedness that the law can not judge the spiritual. I showed you that is not true. James himself uses the law of Moses to illustrate that the faith that saves is the faith that works, and that if you're faith can't do that you have a faith that can not save you. Do NOT confuse this with Paul's argument that says the faith that justifies (makes one righteous) does that apart from works.

 

[jasoncran]

jethro. you gentiles were never under the shabat.

uhm that torah and the other 612 laws were given to the isrealites.

otherwise the commands by the Jerusalem church would have negated the commands of the lord then and it didn't. see acts 15

 

[Mitspa]

Here's a true story:

A person I was very close to truly loved God and was born-again. That I know for a fact. Things happened in the course of a couple of years to where they completely turned their back on God and are currently living like the world, they have been for about 15 years.

And many atheists have a similar story.

Can a person lose their salvation, can they give up, can they let go the gift once given? Yes. And that is precisely why there are so many warnings in the NT.

This is my question Free, what was they taught? Was they taught a standard that they could not keep? Did they give-up because Gods grace was not their confidence?
Was they taught how to stand?
If not? then the judgment will not be upon them for their ignorance. Now if these people were put under the yoke of law I believe God may very well have more mercy upon them than those who laid the burden upon them.
The law is a stumbling block to faith. Those who cause His little ones to stumble are the ones who should take heed to the very large portion of scripture. So yes, when we have died to the law and have learned to judge by the spirit and not the flesh, we are in a position to judge, and warn. But no one under law can judge righteous judgment.

 

[jasoncran]

jethro. the modern church ,unlike the Calvinists in the early American days , doesn't teach much on holiness. read the puritans statements on grace and the idea of the perservance of the saints and they do teach and push holiness.

 

[Free]

This is my question Free, what was they taught? Was they taught a standard that they could not keep? Did they give-up because Gods grace was not their confidence?
Was they taught how to stand?
If not? then the judgment will not be upon them for their ignorance. Now if these people were put under the yoke of law I believe God may very well have more mercy upon them than those who laid the burden upon them.
The law is a stumbling block to faith. Those who cause His little ones to stumble are the ones who should take heed to the very large portion of scripture. So yes, when we have died to the law and have learned to judge by the spirit and not the flesh, we are in a position to judge, and warn. But no one under law can judge righteous judgment.

It really is incredible the lengths some go to to deny the obvious. This was your typical Evangelical Christian taught the typical Evangelical things. There are only two choices here: either they are still a Christian, or they were and now are not.

 

[Mitspa]

Almost, Mitspa. Everyone but...me and Francis (lol).



I wish that was true that the church is going about a concerted effort to keep the commandments. At least they would be on their way to the death that must occur before one can be born again.

What I see is a church busy about the works of a different law...a law of church attendance, worship styles, service in the church, and supporting the latest building program. I wish we could at least criticize them for trying to obey the Ten Commandments in the same way they commit themselves to those things.



Show me where I said this, okay? I'm emboldening this so I can easily find it again and remind you to answer the question in case you don't.



Well, since I'm not talking about being justified by the law, what's your point? Do you think somehow even nine Commandments of the Ten are not literally upheld by faith in Christ?




Good, at least we agree about one thing. But you can't see through the lens of the hardened indoctrination of the law prevalent in the church today that we do agree. You can only hear one thing when you hear the word 'law'.




So what rule did Paul use to lay a charge against the sinner at the Church of Corinth in 1 Corinthians 5? Don't blow the question off. I insist you answer it.




...and a witness to (man's) unrighteousness. Even after faith in Christ it still defines and exposes unrighteous behavior. Or are you going to argue that somehow adultery is no longer sinful behavior when we have faith in Christ?




Of course I do, but sadly you can't see I'm hardly arguing about these fundamental things about the law you keep hammering.


When we walk by the Spirit (not just have the Spirit) we will violate no law of God. That's how we know if we, or someone else, is walking by the Spirit, or not. I challenge you to prove to me that a person can commit adultery, or lie, or steal, etc. and be walking in the fruit of the Spirit at the same time.

This has NOTHING to do with being justified by the law as Paul speaks about that. It has everything to do with knowing if we are walking by the Spirit, or not, in accordance with the new way of being justified in Christ--faith in his blood. If you say a person can be in violation of the commandments of God that govern human relationships found in the law as a way of life and still be safe in Christ through faith, you are terribly misinformed. Faith is NOT a license to sin...the law being our fundamental measure of what sin is to even know if we're walking in the faith we boast of.

Let me guess...still hearing "we are justified by the law", right?

I think the main problem is you claimed in the superiority of your giftedness that the law can not judge the spiritual. I showed you that is not true. James himself uses the law of Moses to illustrate that the faith that saves is the faith that works, and that if you're faith can't do that you have a faith that can not save you. Do NOT confuse this with Paul's argument that says the faith that justifies (makes one righteous) does that apart from works.

So again I must remember the hours we have debated these same issues! And I have answered these same things in clear biblical ways such as the issue of How Paul deals with sin.
You here again point to the law as Pauls source of judgment and correction. Paul never defined this mans sin as a sin against the law. He points to it as a sin against the spirit. He does not unsave the man, but bringd spiritual correction to him. Then he restores this same man. The law is not the judge of this mans sin. Nor does Paul deal with him according to the law, nor does Paul ever correct any believer according to the law of Moses. So again you always come back around to being justified by the law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well jethro, you seem to forget that I have spent hours going in the circle of your doctrine, and I am not moved when I hear a man teach legalism one day and then when that is exposed, throw a new coat of grace over that same false doctrine. Then act offended that I do not go alone with the overnight conversion? Now I allow that you have questions and are in a battle in your mind on some issues. If you would be honest that you do not understand some issues I could come to a more humble position with you. But I cannot or will not partake of anyones false doctrine. And as long as I see you promote legalism I must reprove these things. i have allowed that you are not teaching legalism before, and have only been disappointed when I come to the end of your doctrines, because they always end with the believer standing before the law being judged by the law.

So, knowing that you are sinning because the law says what you do is sin is legalism? Really? And worse, is equivalent to trying to be justified by the law? You can't be serious.

If I was teaching that the remedy for man's sin was the way of the law you'd have an argument. I'm saying the answer for man's sin is the fruit of the Spirit! I'm saying that we can tell if we are serving God in the new way of faith, and the power of the Holy Spirit via the fruit of the Spirit, (and, therefore, have a faith that can save us) by if what we do violates the moral law of God or not.

The fruit of the Spirit is kindness, love, self-control, etc. Is the person who is sleeping with his neighbor's wife, or lying, or cheating, or bearing false witness against another walking in that fruit when they do that? All you can hear is that I'm saying the answer to that is to then make a determined effort to obey the letter of the law. No! The answer for what the law has exposed is walk in the fruit of the Spirit. That is hardly equivalent to what you claim I'm saying, that somehow identifying sin in yourself and others means we are trying to be justified by law. Ridiculous. The fruit of the Spirit would be absent from my conversation if I was endorsing that. Utterly absent.

Still not getting it, right?