Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Mitspa]

It really is incredible the lengths some go to to deny the obvious. This was your typical Evangelical Christian taught the typical Evangelical things. There are only two choices here: either they are still a Christian, or they were and now are not.

Well I have made my point, and it is based upon the truth of scripture. These people will be judged by a righteous God. If they fell because the stumbling block of law was placed before them? God will judge this also.

 

[Free]

Well I have made my point, and it is based upon the truth of scripture. These people will be judged by a righteous God. If they fell because the stumbling block of law was placed before them? God will judge this also.

But it isn't based on Scripture, that's the point. That is also a serious problem in the Church, perhaps particularly to Evangelicalism--instead of considering known personal experience as a means of readjusting theology, or even merely considering one's theology may be wrong, they would rather tell people their experience is somehow wrong. This is a major factor in people both leaving and refusing to join any church.

This person fell because they fell. That is precisely what the NT warns against.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So again I must remember the hours we have debated these same issues! And I have answered these same things in clear biblical ways such as the issue of How Paul deals with sin.
You here again point to the law as Pauls source of judgment and correction. Paul never defined this mans sin as a sin against the law. He points to it as a sin against the spirit. He does not unsave the man, but bringd spiritual correction to him. Then he restores this same man. The law is not the judge of this mans sin. Nor does Paul deal with him according to the law, nor does Paul ever correct any believer according to the law of Moses. So again you always come back around to being justified by the law.

Prove to me that being determined to not quench the impulse of the Spirit and walk according to the fruit of the Spirit, which in turn does not violate the law of God, is somehow seeking to be justified by the law that being kind, generous, forgiving, self-controlled, etc. upholds. Prove it.

We are commanded to walk according to the fruit of the Spirit, but you claim that is equivalent to trying to be justified by the law. Prove it.

 

[Mitspa]

So, knowing that you are sinning because the law says what you do is sin is legalism? Really? And worse, is equivalent to trying to be justified by the law? You can't be serious.

If I was teaching that the remedy for man's sin was the way of the law you'd have an argument. I'm saying the answer for man's sin is the fruit of the Spirit! I'm saying that we can tell if we are serving God in the new way of faith, and the power of the Holy Spirit via the fruit of the Spirit, (and, therefore, have a faith that can save us) by if what we do violates the moral law of God or not.

The fruit of the Spirit is kindness, love, self-control, etc. Is the person who is sleeping with his neighbor's wife, or lying, or cheating, or bearing false witness against another walking in that fruit when they do that? All you can hear is that I'm saying the answer to that is to then make a determined effort to obey the letter of the law. No! The answer for what the law has exposed is walk in the fruit of the Spirit. That is hardly equivalent to what you claim I'm saying, that somehow identifying sin in yourself and others means we are trying to be justified by law. Ridiculous. The fruit of the Spirit would be absent from my conversation if I was endorsing that. Utterly absent.

Still not getting it, right?

Again this proves my point! How can the law make a charge of sin against one who is justified by Christ?
We are not judged by the written code. If fact if we look to the written code, it will cause sin to have power over us.

So we must die to the law. where there is no law there is no transgression.
We have new law, the law of faith and love. Now any sin a christain commits they commit against these laws.
Now the reason Paul used the example of the old law, was to show that in love ALL is fulfilled. The object is to deliver them from the old into the new.
Again a man who does not steal, has not kept the law! Only when a man loves the thief, has he kept ALL THE LAW!

you can not just take parts of the Ten Commandments, and leave the rest of the Old Testament! Its every jot and tittle our its nothing. If one tries to be justified by any part of the Old testament, they must keep it all!
You cant just pick out what flavor you like!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm am sorry but I keep hearing the same thing Mitspa is. Will you indulge me, please in answering some questions? If not that's OK just ignore if you choose.

Scenario..

Stage 1 - A young man gets saved, born again. He is truly repentant and the Holy Spirit has indwelled him. He lives several years of his life serving the Lord and in a close relationship with the Lord. He witnesses and people get saved. He goes to church and services in his community. He is walking in the Spirit.

Stage 2 - For some reason he gets involved in some sin which interfers with his walk. He isn't praying, witnessing, studying the Word. He not going to church. He's walking in the flesh.

Stage 3 - A year or so later he responds to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. He sincerely repents before God. He returns to all he was before. He is walking again in the Spirit.

So I've told you he is definitely saved during stage 1 of his life. But of coarse you can disagree, that is an option.

In your opinion. during stage 2 of his life, is he saved, unsaved, maybe maybe not saved?

It depends on WHY he turned back to his sinful lifestyle. Didn't I explain this in one of my posts?

Same for stage 3. Is he saved, unsaved, maybe maybe not saved?

Genuine repentance, IMO, is always a sign of life, not death. Coming back to faith, where and when that's possible, is in reality, to me, the supreme mark of a genuinely saved person. It's the person who does not come back to the Lord that speaks volumes about his lostness.

 

[Mitspa]

Prove to me that being determined to not quench the impulse of the Spirit and walk according to the fruit of the Spirit, which in turn does not violate the law of God, is somehow seeking to be justified by the law that being kind, generous, forgiving, self-controlled, etc. upholds. Prove it.

We are commanded to walk according to the fruit of the Spirit, but you claim that is equivalent to trying to be justified by the law. Prove it.

we are not commanded to walk in the fruit of the spirit. You cannot command a fruit! a fruit grows. This is just leaglism wrapped in a new testament scriptue. We are told to first walk in the spirit, the context is to die to the law and attempts to justify oneslves by the works of flesh and trust the spirit and the spirit will produce the fruit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This person fell because they fell. That is precisely what the NT warns against.

I know a person who, after getting saved, against everything in their personality and their desire to do so, spoke in tongues. I heard it, I know this person very well and there is no way it was fake. You just have to trust me, it was completely out of character for them. Some years later, when confronted with some difficult requirements of discipleship, they decided to leave the faith.

The jury is still out on whether they have returned, or if they ever will return. But I'm still praying they will. I really am.

 

[Mitspa]

But it isn't based on Scripture, that's the point. That is also a serious problem in the Church, perhaps particularly to Evangelicalism--instead of considering known personal experience as a means of readjusting theology, or even merely considering one's theology may be wrong, they would rather tell people their experience is somehow wrong. This is a major factor in people both leaving and refusing to join any church.

This person fell because they fell. That is precisely what the NT warns against.

Well again you are not seeing the effect of those who cause others to stumble by putting them under the yoke of law.
Now to deny that a very large and the most serious warnings of scripture are made to those who turn back to the law, is just not acceptable as an biblical response

 

[Mitspa]

I know a person who, after getting saved, against everything in their personality and their desire to do so, spoke in tongues. I heard it, I know this person very well and there is no way it was fake. You just have to trust me, it was completely out of character for them. Some years later, when confronted with some difficult requirements of discipleship, they decided to leave the faith.

Well did they leave faith or legalism? Because the law is not of faith. If they was in a legalistic church, then better to take their chances with the sinners than the hypocrites.

 

[Deborah13]

It depends on WHY he turned back to his sinful lifestyle. Didn't I explain this in one of my posts?

Sorry, I must have missed it.

Thanks for answering, this is where I thought you stood but just wanted to be sure. I don't like to assume and these postings have been going on for a long time.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

How can the law make a charge of sin against one who is justified by Christ?
We are not judged by the written code.

How do you put to death the desires of the flesh if you're not allowed to use the law to identify and judge the deeds of the flesh?

James uses the law of Moses to show us that the faith that does not work, upholding the examples of the law of Moses he uses, is a faith that can not save. How is that not the requirements of the law showing whether or not we are in Christ and have a faith that can save us?

Bedtime. I'll be back. Meanwhile you can think of a way to explain how James really isn't using the keeping of the laws of Moses he cites to show whether or not we have a faith that can save. It's impossible to do, but I'm confident you'll try.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well did they leave faith or legalism? Because the law is not of faith. If they was in a legalistic church, then better to take their chances with the sinners than the hypocrites.

They spoke in tongues. Does a legalistic relationship with God--one that we both agree can not save--solicit the Holy Spirit in salvation?

You of all people know the answer.

And let's not talk about how damaging it has been to tell this person they were never really saved.

 

[childeye]

LOL, no not on purpose.

But you could be of some help to me and maybe Jethro, too if you gave us some scriptures with each thought you have expressed. It would give me someplace to start with out working so hard at it. I know you posted some earlier but I don't want to assume anything.

Well of course there is the original lie wherein we lost faith through:

Genesis 3:4-5. But I would point out that verse 1 one says the serpent was most cunning of all God's creation. I assume you all know Adam and Eve were innocent. I take this to mean mankinds wit was no match for Satan.

4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” Here Satan subtly implies god is a liar in verse 4. And in verse 5 he implies that god is only lying to keep us down and god knows we could be like him. What a subtle lie since we were already like him. Upon considering this lie we are already doubting Gods intentions toward us which is to lose faith in His righteousness Who is our righteousness.

Romans 1 verse 17. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[a] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[b]
This means God will make known His righteousness which is by faith wherein before we had doubted and this doubt preceded our disobedience.

verse 18. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Now here as Martin Luther taught, Paul is refering to all men. And we know this because in Romans 2:1 he says therefore no one has any excuse to judge for wherein you judge another you condemn yourself.

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Here we see that God is our goodness and this is what is meant by invisible things, our godliness which exists in us because He made us. Also see John 1 the Word was the light of man and the life of man. All that was created was created through the Word, he came into the world but the world knew him not.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Here we see that when we knew him as in the past we did not esteem Him as God which reiterates above the godliness we take for granted since obviously we were unthankful.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Here we see we thought wisdom belonged to us rather than attributing it to Him. Hence elsewhere in scripture it is said that God has confounded the wise and chose the lowly things so that God alone would be glorified and not men. Also scripture says that Christ has become wisdom to us.

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Here we see that men created their own image of god that was like corruptible man. That is like saying we still believed in the false image presented in the Garden of Eden that was corrupt as in a self-serving god.

Now the destruction of the devil:

Hebrews 2:
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
1 John 3: 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Noe here we see that the devil has the power of death which I take to mean the keys to hell and death which Jesus took from satan after he had been in hell for three days and three nights. Revelations 1:18 18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Collossians 2:

14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
The law being nailed to the cross and spoiling principalities and powers.

Galatians 3: 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Mark 12:
12 And he began to speak unto them by parables. A certain man planted a vineyard, and set an hedge about it, and digged a place for the winefat, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country.

2 And at the season he sent to the husbandmen a servant, that he might receive from the husbandmen of the fruit of the vineyard.

3 And they caught him, and beat him, and sent him away empty.

4 And again he sent unto them another servant; and at him they cast stones, and wounded him in the head, and sent him away shamefully handled.

5 And again he sent another; and him they killed, and many others; beating some, and killing some.

6 Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son.

7 But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours.'

8 And they took him, and killed him, and cast him out of the vineyard.


Revelation 12:
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Luke 22:
2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.


Revelation 12:
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


Romans 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Matthew 7:
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Titus 1:15

King James Version (KJV)

15Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

 

[childeye]

Well this was not some guy named Randy!
This was God who came in the flesh of man, to redeem that which He made. Its His planet its His rules and he decides who and how He forgives! Your issue seems to be you think you are as God and know good and evil? does that ring a bell?

Please read post 815. Then talk to me about Randy. In the preceding post 866 above is scriptural support.

 

[Mitspa]

How do you put to death the desires of the flesh if you're not allowed to use the law to identify and judge the deeds of the flesh?

James uses the law of Moses to show us that the faith that does not work, upholding the examples of the law of Moses he uses, is a faith that can not save. How is that not the requirements of the law showing whether or not we are in Christ and have a faith that can save us?

Bedtime. I'll be back. Meanwhile you can think of a way to explain how James really isn't using the keeping of the laws of Moses he cites to show whether or not we have a faith that can save. It's impossible to do, but I'm confident you'll try.

You cannot be in the spirit and be under law, because to be in the spirt one must be in the freely justified condition of grace.
The scriptures does not say to put to death the flesh by the law, it says that the law strengthens the desires of the flesh.

No you die to the law and walk in the spirit and the spirit of God will overcome sin by grace.

For sin will not have dominion over you, because your not under law but under grace. The strength of sin is the law.
Now if you want to stop trying to teach long enough to learn? I can explain these things to you, but as long as you sre trying to prove false doctrine you heart cannot receive or know the truth of these scriptures.
We have already been around the James thing and you lost that discussion also.

 

[Mitspa]

Please read post 815. Then talk to me about Randy. In the preceding post 866 above is scriptural support.

I have read both your post and they are well thought out and constructive post? But My point is that Jesus Christ is God, and His Blood is of more value than all the sin of all men of all the ages. He is worthy of our trust and when He Shed His Blood for us, he sanctified forever those who accept and honor His Blood.

 

[Mitspa]

They spoke in tongues. Does a legalistic relationship with God--one that we both agree can not save--solicit the Holy Spirit in salvation?

You of all people know the answer.

And let's not talk about how damaging it has been to tell this person they were never really saved.

I am not judging this person! It seems that is a hobby of those who feel they are being judged by the law?
As far as someone speaking in tongues? There are plenty of false spirits and false charismatic movements going around.
Also Paul makes this very point to the Gal. chruch? That the Holy Spirit worked in their midst with signs and wonders, that they themselves had received the Holy Spirit yet by going back into the law, they where falling from grace.

This could be the group that claims to have phophecied and done great works in the Lords name? But was rejected by Him, and called cursed! This is the charge Paul makes also to these people in Gal. So they in effect reject Christ by turning back to legalism. No matter how much one calls himself a christian, if they reject grace, they are rejecting Christ.

 

[childeye]

I have read both your post and they are well thought out and constructive post? But My point is that Jesus Christ is God, and His Blood is of more value than all the sin of all men of all the ages. He is worthy of our trust and when He Shed His Blood for us, he sanctified forever those who accept and honor His Blood.

Thanks for reading my posts 815 and the supporting scripture in 866, and of course you are right about our blessed Lord's blood, which symbolizes his life sacrificed to cleanse us and cleanse heaven, erasing the enmity between man and God. Yes Christ is God and also is He our Light. If you can't trust the God/ man who laid down his life for you, you can't trust anyone.

 

[Ryan]

Well ryan, i do believe you have a sincere desire to please God and that you do desire to keep the law of God. There is no reason that a honest man should ever doubt that he can understand the gospel. First back to the issue in the book of Gal. Paul makes the point in clear terms that as one receives Christ by faith, that one must continue in Him by faith, the law is not of faith. Paul makes this statement" having begun in the Spirit are you now made perfect by the flesh.
I have alot to say on this issue, but must get to work.
I hope we can have an honest discussion of the topic?
Mitspa

Yay, an olive branch extended by you about having an honest discussion. So I provided a pretty clear explanation of my views, based on pretty sound biblical logic and reasoning.

I am not going to disagree that the Law is not of faith. So here is an example from the Law that describes our redemption and justification.

Isreal was held in bondage to Egypt physically prior to the Exodus and parting of the Red Sea. Egypt can also be used in a spiritual sense as one being held in slavery to sin. Israel pleaded for God to save them, and God called them out. Much like we recognized we were sinners and in need of a Saviour. But the devil doesn't want that and will hunt us down and chase after us to bring us back to bondage, much like Pharaoh did to Israel.

The parting of the Red Sea is rich with pictures of and the shadows of our Messiah is printed all over this. One of my favoritist lines is this Exodus 14:13 But Moses said to the people, “Do not fear! Stand by and see the salvation of the Lord which He will accomplish for you today; for the Egyptians whom you have seen today, you will never see them again forever."

Then the immersion into the Red Sea is much our baptism as stated in 1 Corinthians 10:1-3 For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; 2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3 and all ate the same spiritual food; 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ."

For some, who say that Israel had to obey the Law of Moses to be justified, this is proof they were saved in the same way you and I are.

Now they have crossed the Red Sea and what do they do? They sing praises in Exodus 15 praising God for delivering them. Another illustration of when we become believers and the freedom of being delivered from the bondage and slavery of sin. Now let's stop here. Some theology and doctrines teach now you are saved, let's stand by the sea shore and praise God for our redemption and there isn't anything else we have to do. But that's not where the story ends.

They continued on to Mt. Sinai and were given teachings and instructions, and a complete revelation of God as how he desires us to live our lives. But the story continues, and the testing in the wilderness and the trials and tribulations of such. Mt. Sinai was given to prepare them for the time in the wilderness. Then they reached the promised land (heaven).

Galatians was written because they were putting Mt. Sinai ahead of the Red Sea and being justified that way which is impossible. But that is putting the horse before the cart. Faith must always precede obedience. There is no other way. There is a progression of steps we must take as believers in our walk with Christ. It's not just about walking through the Red Sea singing praises and not move forward. He wants us to continue onto Mt. Sinai. I believe that is who the NT warnings are being written to. Those who do not walk towards that life of obedience and servitude, and just want to stay by the Red Sea and sing. Not that singing and praising God isn't good, he just wants us to move forward.

That's where I am coming from. Thanks for listening.

Nothing accusatory, uncivil or heretical. Then you respond with this...

Ryan this would all make sense if not for the New Testament and the clear and evident witness of scripture.
Of course one can reason along the lines you have reasoned. This is mans reasoning. No not the gospel at all! One must become a fool to be made wise, weak to be made strong..

So, I've been accused of being and unwise because you do not agree with my position. But it gets better.

And Paul confronts the very things you are trying to teach.
So not sure that you have left me any room to reprove your doctrines, but I just say that which Paul said. If any man or even an Angel from heaven teaches any other gospel than that which he taught they are cursed..

Oh no, been cursed now. But it still gets better...

He goes on to say that he is amazed that they are turning FROM THE GRACE OF GOD into a different gospel.
This epistle is an absolute rejection of what you are trying to affirm.

By learning and following Adonai's instructions and revelations about himself that he gave, that is better known as the Torah of Truth, which are the very same commandments our Master walked to lead a sinless life, only to be the Lamb of God that was lead to be slaughtered, which we all should have been up there on the cross instead of Yeshua as he never sinned, yet he died for us, not to save us from his Law, but to pay the debt for breaking it. Now we are free from following it? Nope, we are called to walk as Jesus walked, as he walked in obedience to his own righteous laws and ordinances. Why do you think I asked you if God can be at enmity with himself?

Mitspa, I love you that's why I am telling you this. If you are the revelation, manifestation, and living example of one who expresses being freed from the Law of Moses, then I will grasp on firmly to my Torah scroll till the day I die. My words are just that, mans words which is sinful and carnal in itself. So I leave you with these words from Hebrews.

Hebrews 10 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.†And again, “The Lord will judge His people.â€

31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Please consider these passages carefully. Take care and you'll be in my prayers.

 

[Free]

Well again you are not seeing the effect of those who cause others to stumble by putting them under the yoke of law.
Now to deny that a very large and the most serious warnings of scripture are made to those who turn back to the law, is just not acceptable as an biblical response

And you are again ignoring what I have plainly told you regarding this persons experience. There was absolutely nothing to do with "putting them under the yoke of the law." I know you like to think that because otherwise your theology cannot handle what I have stated. But that simply means that your theology is likely wrong.

Whether or not "a very large and the most serious warnings of scripture are made to those who turn back to the law," is not the point, although it likely isn't the case. If there is even one warning about falling away, quite apart from having anything to do with the law, then your position is in trouble. And this is in fact the case since there is more than one.

I should point out that your answers doesn't really address the issue as it still allows for someone to fall away from the faith.