Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Free]

I know a person who, after getting saved, against everything in their personality and their desire to do so, spoke in tongues. I heard it, I know this person very well and there is no way it was fake. You just have to trust me, it was completely out of character for them. Some years later, when confronted with some difficult requirements of discipleship, they decided to leave the faith.

The jury is still out on whether they have returned, or if they ever will return. But I'm still praying they will. I really am.

And there are numerous examples of this if one cares to bother looking. So one either has to believe they are still saved, are not saved, or weren't saved in the first place. But that last option is a horrendous one and requires one to know the intimacies of someone else's heart.

 

[Deborah13]

And there are numerous examples of this if one cares to bother looking. So one either has to believe they are still saved, are not saved, or weren't saved in the first place. But that last option is a horrendous one and requires one to know the intimacies of someone else's heart.

Truly the Lord looks at the heart.

 

[Mitspa]

And you are again ignoring what I have plainly told you regarding this persons experience. There was absolutely nothing to do with "putting them under the yoke of the law." I know you like to think that because otherwise your theology cannot handle what I have stated. But that simply means that your theology is likely wrong.

Whether or not "a very large and the most serious warnings of scripture are made to those who turn back to the law," is not the point, although it likely isn't the case. If there is even one warning about falling away, quite apart from having anything to do with the law, then your position is in trouble. And this is in fact the case since there is more than one.

I should point out that your answers doesn't really address the issue as it still allows for someone to fall away from the faith.

Well you did not "plainly tell me" anything as it relates to what teaching this person was under.
And I will be glad to defend my every statement as very clear and evident truth of scripture. The reason you do not bring a biblical challenge to any thing I have said on this thread is because you cannot. Instead, you seek to insult and lay your own opinion over the truth of scripture. I know very well of many warnings against "both" leavens that work against godliness. My point again is that MOST warnings of New Testament scripture is made to those who are teaching the law of moses. This is the leaven of hypocricy which first must be purged before anyone has a right to judge according to righteous judgment.
Also I have not tried to defend the position that a believer can not be "cut off" or "fall from grace" but in both cases the issue is that they are turning back to law. These two warnings are made in clear terms and those who teach legalism and then go about to "warn" others, should first warn themselves.

 

[Mitspa]

Yay, an olive branch extended by you about having an honest discussion. So I provided a pretty clear explanation of my views, based on pretty sound biblical logic and reasoning.

Nothing accusatory, uncivil or heretical. Then you respond with this...


So, I've been accused of being and unwise because you do not agree with my position. But it gets better.


Oh no, been cursed now. But it still gets better...


By learning and following Adonai's instructions and revelations about himself that he gave, that is better known as the Torah of Truth, which are the very same commandments our Master walked to lead a sinless life, only to be the Lamb of God that was lead to be slaughtered, which we all should have been up there on the cross instead of Yeshua as he never sinned, yet he died for us, not to save us from his Law, but to pay the debt for breaking it. Now we are free from following it? Nope, we are called to walk as Jesus walked, as he walked in obedience to his own righteous laws and ordinances. Why do you think I asked you if God can be at enmity with himself?

Mitspa, I love you that's why I am telling you this. If you are the revelation, manifestation, and living example of one who expresses being freed from the Law of Moses, then I will grasp on firmly to my Torah scroll till the day I die. My words are just that, mans words which is sinful and carnal in itself. So I leave you with these words from Hebrews.

Hebrews 10 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Please consider these passages carefully. Take care and you'll be in my prayers.

Well I thank you for the warning! But what you do not see is that warning is against those who turn back to law and the willing sin is that , turning back to the strength of sin, which is the law. See my friend, this is accounting the Blood as a common thing and insulting the Spirit of Grace.
For if its by grace? it is no longer by law, and if its by law? then its no longer by grace.

So yes there will be a Great and terrible Day of the Lord.
I will be found standing with Paul, not having my own righteousness, which is by the law, but I will have the Righteousness of God, which comes through faith alone, In the Work of Christ.

Also I should add that God is not at emnity with the law! Christ fulfilled its purpose unto the jot and tittle.
Man is at emnity with the law, and man has no power to keep the law, for it was given to show this very thing. Now to go about to keep what God says, man cannot keep is the emnity between God and a man who goes about to establish his own righteousness and has not submitted to Gods righteousness.

 

[francisdesales]

It's sad that you can only hear 'law' in regard to justification by the law. If only you knew how wrongly you are hearing what I've been saying. If only you knew. I know you think you are hearing and understanding perfectly, but your comments show you are hardly representing what I've been saying. Hardly. And what's truly sad is, if you ever do understand what I'm really saying I wonder if you'll have the humility to admit you really weren't hearing what I was saying and agree with it because you've been making such a great boast of how gifted you are.

I know you posted something in response to what I said earlier today. I haven't read it yet. I'm confident there'll be something to respond to, lol.

You have been reading my mind on how I felt, as well...

Must be the brain surgery!

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So yes there will be a Great and terrible Day of the Lord.
I will be found standing with Paul, not having my own righteousness, which is by the law, but I will have the Righteousness of God, which comes through faith alone, In the Work of Christ.

Yes, but will you have any works to validate the boast of your faith? If you think you can stand before the Lord with mere knowledge about Christ and the kingdom and no fruit of the kingdom gained from putting the knowledge of the kingdom to work in this age you will be turned away to join the other hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If you think to believe that means to believe you are justified (made righteous) by works of the law you really need to look into the matter a little deeper.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have been reading my mind on how I felt, as well...

Must be the brain surgery!

Regards

Golly! And to think I wanted to be a secret agent. (Remember that episode?)

 

[francisdesales]

Yay, an olive branch extended by you about having an honest discussion. So I provided a pretty clear explanation of my views, based on pretty sound biblical logic and reasoning.

Nothing accusatory, uncivil or heretical. Then you respond with this...


So, I've been accused of being and unwise because you do not agree with my position. But it gets better.


Oh no, been cursed now. But it still gets better...


By learning and following Adonai's instructions and revelations about himself that he gave, that is better known as the Torah of Truth, which are the very same commandments our Master walked to lead a sinless life, only to be the Lamb of God that was lead to be slaughtered, which we all should have been up there on the cross instead of Yeshua as he never sinned, yet he died for us, not to save us from his Law, but to pay the debt for breaking it. Now we are free from following it? Nope, we are called to walk as Jesus walked, as he walked in obedience to his own righteous laws and ordinances. Why do you think I asked you if God can be at enmity with himself?

Mitspa, I love you that's why I am telling you this. If you are the revelation, manifestation, and living example of one who expresses being freed from the Law of Moses, then I will grasp on firmly to my Torah scroll till the day I die. My words are just that, mans words which is sinful and carnal in itself. So I leave you with these words from Hebrews.

Hebrews 10 26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.

28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Please consider these passages carefully. Take care and you'll be in my prayers.

You handled that nicely...

Regards

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You cannot be in the spirit and be under law...

Right. When you are walking in the Spirit you are not doing things that the law condemns. The law can't bring a charge against those who aren't violating the law because they are walking according to the fruit of the Spirit.

The scriptures does not say to put to death the flesh by the law...

Right. It says to put the flesh to death by the Spirit...which doing so just so happens to uphold the requirements of the law. Or do you want to argue the point?

, it says that the law strengthens the desires of the flesh.

Yes, if you try to put the flesh to death by the way of simply reading mere written words and then trying to keep them you will in fact end up strengthening the flesh, not killing it. But if you put the deeds of the flesh to death by the way of the Spirit you will not be in violation of the law. We walk by the Spirit when we obey the impulse to be kind, generous, forgiving, long suffering, patient, self controlled, etc. THAT is how a person mortifies the flesh by the Spirit. How can we tell if we are really doing that? By whether or not we uphold the requirements of the law. Or do you want to argue that walking according to the Spirit (love, joy, peace, etc.) somehow does not uphold the requirements of the law?

No you die to the law and walk in the spirit and the spirit of God will overcome sin by grace.

IOW, you will satisfy the requirements of the law. How can you not see this?

For sin will not have dominion over you, because your not under law but under grace.

IF you obey the impulse of the Spirit.

The strength of sin is the law.

The WAY of law is the strength of sin. The WAY of the Spirit is how you defeat sin. But that hardly means that new way does not somehow 'keep' (satisfy, fulfill) the law. But feel free to explain to me how it doesn't, okay?

Now if you want to stop trying to teach long enough to learn? I can explain these things to you, but as long as you sre trying to prove false doctrine you heart cannot receive or know the truth of these scriptures.

I say the very same thing to you. The very same thing.

We have already been around the James thing and you lost that discussion also.

We'll see. I will visit those passages again. Do some homework ahead of time first and see what four Mosaic laws James uses to illustrate the faith that saves--the faith that works.

 

[francisdesales]

Ryan and Jethro,

It seems that we largely agree on the subject discussed here. I thought I would make a few points that might explain things better for others. Let me know if you disagree:

Although Paul makes a great distinction between faith v works performed under obligation of the Law, he DOES make it clear that there is a strong connection between faith and obedience to God's Law. It would seem to be contradictory. However, this contradiction goes away once we understand the difference between "work done under the principle of obligation" vs "works done under the power of God's grace". Man cannot obligate God. This is one of his most fundamental teachings:

"to the one working, the wage is not reckoned according to grace, but according to obligation" Romans 4:4

"And if by grace, then it is no longer works; if it were, grace would be no longer grace" Romans 11:6

Any understanding of justification must take into account this principle of legal obligation, which distinguishes between "grace" and "works". In Rom 4:4, Paul indicates two ways of receiving eternal life - 1: that which is owed to the individual for work done (paycheck...) OR that which one receives as a gift from God. The later is grace. Clearly, God must give salvation by grace, a gift, since no one can obligate God. This was a misunderstanding of the teachings of Deuteronomy and the Covenant by the Jews, who turned faithful following of the Law into legalism that God owed a reward for obeying.

How is one's relationship with God grounded? Paul links obedience to the law and faith together for justification (such as Romans 2:13). "Faith" and "works", for Paul, become the background for how that relationship with God is grounded. Do we come to obey God by legal obligation, believing God owes us a reward? Or do we recognize that we require God's grace to save us and that God is near to the person who lives by faith?

Paul lays this out in Romans 2:5-10. God saves or condemns based on the works of the individual. (esp. v7). Is Paul contradicting himself here and Romans 3-6? No, because the works of Romans 2 are works done under the power of God's grace, rather than under legal obligation:

"Or do you despise the riches of his kindness and his forbearance and longsuffering, not realizing the kindness of God leads you to repentance"? Rom 2:4

Kindness, forbearance and longsuffering are attributes of God that flow to us by grace. God is not obligated to act in this manner towards man. He does not have to "lead us to repentance". Thus, the works of Romans 2, which are accompanied by faith and repentance, are not works done under the principle of debt/obligation - which Paul will attack in Romans 4:4. These works are done under the principles of trusting faith and grace.

Jesus is no different. He consistently makes our salvation contingent upon our obedience to God. However, this obedience must be "greater than the Pharisees". This certainly cannot refer to more "deeds", the Pharisees were meticulous. What was different is clearly laid out in the Sermon on the Mount. Obedience to God must come from the heart - for God desires mercy, not sacrifice.

And thus, man still must obey the Law written by "the finger of God". What matters, throughout the OT and NT, is whether man is trying to place God under debt, or whether man is responding to God's grace with appropriate conversion of the heart and mind.

Thoughts?

 

[francisdesales]

Oh you beautiful and Loving people of God. Thank you for all of your wonderful responses, full of insight and gifted wisdom. I think all of your answers are full of Truth. And before any thought that I am practicing flattery enters the air, I would like to show you why I say that you are all full of Truth and why I posed the two questions.

If you recall I had asked of what am I guilty of? And how does the blood of Jesus cleanse my conscience?

Both of these questions are closely related. For if I do not know what I did wrong there can be no sincere sorrow. There can be no getting right before God. For if He asked me what I am sorry for and I cannot tell Him, then I am still estranged and my apology is invalid. Nor is there any true repentance. So it is that I have seen that mankind while innocent in the Garden, did fall prey to Satan's cunning and subtle slander. And that in the very moment they considered that God was a god that would lie to us and keep us down so as to lift himself up, their hearts and minds were experiencing distrust for the first time. And the Loving Image of our Loving and Holy Father was questioned as falsehood. And so we read in Romans 1 where men had traded the Truth for a lie and that when we knew God we did not esteem Him as God and likened Him to man, even though all that was good in us was His Spirit. We thought ourselves wise rather than thanking Him and in such vanity we became estranged from God. Now I know the very seed and root of the black thing that sits upon my conscience. I would beat myself to death if only I could take back the pain of betrayal that I had handed my Loving God who is Jealous for me. I do know what I am sorry for.

Now for the second question, How does the blood of Jesus cleanse my guilty conscience? How does someone elses paying for my sin make my guilt go away?

The answer is a bit more complex. If you recall, Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil which he first sowed in the Garden of Eden. He also came to destroy the enmity between man and God. For this is the work of the devil as can be seen in many scriptures such as Job. And in Revelations where it is said he makes accusation continually before God. But Satan is a liar and consequently a hypocrit. On one hand he tempts and on the other he accuses and like a bookie he plays both ends against the middle unto his profit while he demeans both man and God in Whose Image we are made.

Now some may not like what I say here, but I believe the law was a trap for Satan. For we know the law was administered by angels. As the guardian Cherub the devil could have the keys to hell and the power of death. So I believe he usurped the law to accuse and to tempt and that he is a legalist. He thinks men are to serve the law rather than the law serve men. But when the time was right, God sent His Word made flesh. And because Satan did not comprehend mercy, he did not see his own demise in crucifying this man according to the law. The scriptures that back this up are many. Satan entered into Judas, and the vineyard keepers saw the son and thought they could get his inheritance. Quite telling is that he nailed to the cross the ordinances that were against us and made a spectacle of Principalities and powers. But my favorite is in Revelations where it is said that Jesus was caught up to heaven and men overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb and by their testimony. What I mean to point out is that the cross was meant to defeat Satan and his works. And it was Satan being the guardian Cherub, who used the law to crucify the innocent, even the very son of God. I don't think he saw it coming when Jesus said, "forgive them Father for they know not what they do", and "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?" And after this was witnessed in heaven, war broke out in heaven and Satan was cast out. So it is that Satan was made a spectacle of and by his own hand he was shown to be a merciless self righteous overzealous prosecutor. Again my point is to say that the cross is what was Satan's demise.

Okay. Now when I first heard the Gospel (Christ crucified) I believed that I had seen a Love that transcended all that is comprehensible. And I wondered whether Jesus meant it when he said, "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do". It took me most of my life to finally believe it. For I saw that at the beginning of man's fall it was an innocent mankind that had been duped by a creature far more cunning. And I also found that as I believed this I began to forgive everyone for everything since to condemn anyone only meant that I myself was saying that Adam and Eve as well as myself meant to slander God on purpose, and therefore I was still believing the original lie that God was unholy. And that is how I was able to have a cleansed conscience. That is how we overcome Satan by the blood of Christ and by our testimony.

I say this because at the heart of all division, including on this forum, is Satan playing the ends against the middle. And it becomes apparrant in our theology when at the end of our reasoning we think we must blame either God or mankind for what happened, when in fact it was neither. It was simply Satan playing both ends against the middle. So I hope you see that all of you are right in whatever stage of belief you are in, and I am not patronizing any of you.

I feared the consuimg fire for my deeds were wicked, but he saw my sickness and healed me.

We believe that God has placed within us a conscience. While not perfectly tuned to God's will, we do understand the concept of justice - giving another person their due - when we demand it for ourselves. If we demand justice, we also are expected to dole it out to others (Golden Rule). Thus, I don't believe the "I didn't know I was guilty" theory. Adults KNOW they did something wrong, even if they have never been 'saved'.

As to the blood of Christ clearing my conscience, that is based upon knowledge of God's forgiveness. Vicarious suffering for another was commonly accepted 2000 years ago, and still is, to some degree. The teachings of Scripture rely on the idea in the case of the Mediator between God and Man, Jesus Christ. Just as the "Old" Adam brought about death and destruction for us because of HIS sin, the "New" Adam brought about salvation and freedom because of HIS obedience. Before, I was in the first Adam. Now, I am in the second Adam. The idea of corporate and vicarious action bind this idea of a cleared conscience.

Today, in the highly individualistic world, this might be more difficult to accept/understand. But God has freely decided to forgive us based upon what He has done for us at the cross.

Regards

 

[WIP]

Can a person lose their salvation, can they give up, can they let go the gift once given? Yes. And that is precisely why there are so many warnings in the NT.

The only point here that I am not sure about is the first one, "Can a person lose their salvation."
The Bible clearly states that nothing can take us out of His hand. I take that to mean that God will not let us down and he will not foresake us. His faith is perfect. But I do think it is possible for us to jump out of his hand on our own. After all, isn't that precisely what Adam did? He had the perfect life in physical perfect fellowship with God himself and yet chose to disobey.

 

[reba]

Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:6

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.


Not sure if I can convey my thoughts.... For this post law = pretty much the Ten commandments

Those laws are a wonderful set of rules to live by... Who here sets out to break them?
The difference I see is the WHY we tend to 'keep' the laws...
He has put the laws in our heart. Not laws on a cold piece of stone .. We live sorta by them not for salvation. (That is by His blood and His Grace..). But because there are His plan...
Anyone trying to find/keep salvation by keeping the laws, ANY of the OT laws , is saying the Cross was not enough. Which breaks the first of the commandments

 

[Mitspa]

Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:6

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.


Not sure if I can convey my thoughts.... For this post law = pretty much the Ten commandments

Those laws are a wonderful set of rules to live by... Who here sets out to break them?
The difference I see is the WHY we tend to 'keep' the laws...
He has put the laws in our heart. Not laws on a cold piece of stone .. We live sorta by them not for salvation. (That is by His blood and His Grace..). But because there are His plan...
Anyone trying to find/keep salvation by keeping the laws, ANY of the OT laws , is saying the Cross was not enough. Which breaks the first of the commandments

Wow Reba! I have never heard your understanding of this before, but only bits and pieces here and there. I think you establish an honest point of truth for further debate on the issue.
I am short of time but would agree with this post and say that I also honor the law of moses, for the purpose Pauls decribes.
In essence as a witness against us all, that none of us can keep Gods standard by our own ability, but must have another source of righteousness that being the Spirit who sheds Gods love abroad in our hearts, by which we love others, thus we fulfill that which the written code represents. For the law was a shadow or type of the promise to come. The law is spiritual its was a written code that represented that which we have.

Thus Paul says, not by the letter for the letter kills, but by the Spirit for the Spirit gives life.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes, but will you have any works to validate the boast of your faith? If you think you can stand before the Lord with mere knowledge about Christ and the kingdom and no fruit of the kingdom gained from putting the knowledge of the kingdom to work in this age you will be turned away to join the other hypocrites where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

If you think to believe that means to believe you are justified (made righteous) by works of the law you really need to look into the matter a little deeper.

So do I now have to boast in works? My works are not works of flesh but works of righteousness from Gods Spirit.
Now I am sure if I mentioned these things ,that a charge would be made against me for this also!

So I will let God keep count of my works and I will let Him reward me as He desires, as I stand with Paul and the other saints of God.

 

[Free]

Well you did not "plainly tell me" anything as it relates to what teaching this person was under.

What does it matter? I said they were under typical Evangelical teaching, which typically does not include anything to with the Law. The main point is that I have given two facts: 1. this person was most certainly a Christian, and 2. they have been living a very worldly life for the last 15 years or so.

Those two facts lead to only two possible conclusions:

1. They are still saved.
2. They were saved and now they are not.

And I will be glad to defend my every statement as very clear and evident truth of scripture. The reason you do not bring a biblical challenge to any thing I have said on this thread is because you cannot.

Do not presume to know why I haven't given a biblical challenge. I was merely showing how we must include reason and experience in bringing about a full theology.

Instead, you seek to insult and lay your own opinion over the truth of scripture.

Firstly, I have insulted no one. Secondly, I have given two very clear facts which must be taken into account. And thirdly, it is only your view of what "the truth of Scripture" is that makes you think what I have said is merely my opinion.

I know very well of many warnings against "both" leavens that work against godliness. My point again is that MOST warnings of New Testament scripture is made to those who are teaching the law of moses. This is the leaven of hypocricy which first must be purged before anyone has a right to judge according to righteous judgment.
Also I have not tried to defend the position that a believer cannot be "cut off" or "fall from grace" but in both cases the issue is that they are turning back to law. These two warnings are made in clear terms and those who teach legalism and then go about to "warn" others, should first warn themselves.

There are many warnings that have nothing to do with Law but rather are about not continuing to walk the way believers are called to walk or getting caught up in doctrines of demons.

 

[Free]

The only point here that I am not sure about is the first one, "Can a person lose their salvation."
The Bible clearly states that nothing can take us out of His hand. I take that to mean that God will not let us down and he will not foresake us. His faith is perfect. But I do think it is possible for us to jump out of his hand on our own. After all, isn't that precisely what Adam did? He had the perfect life in physical perfect fellowship with God himself and yet chose to disobey.

Yes, to be clear, the second two statements of mine were meant to clarify the first. I certainly don't think God takes our salvation from us in that we suddenly lose it by no fault of our own.

Perhaps an analogy of a vehicle would work. Vehicles are generally great when brand new. It's all fun and exciting and we almost enjoy taking care of our new purchase. However, over time the excitement fades and we may begin to neglect things a bit. We don't check the oil or tire pressure as much and just generally take it for granted that it will just continue to run and get us to our destination. The more we neglect it and the longer we neglect it, the more costly the repairs will be, if we get it repaired. Warning lights of all kinds may come on and the vehicle may still drive for quite some time but eventually, if we do not get things fixed, the vehicle will fail and we will not reach our destination but instead end up at a different one.

I think the parable of the Sower is very applicable in understanding how things actually work and, IMO, it is most often either shallow soil or the cares, riches, and pleasures of life and that cause people to walk away from the faith.

 

[childeye]

We believe that God has placed within us a
conscience. While not perfectly tuned to God's will, we do understand the
concept of justice - giving another person their due - when we demand it for
ourselves. If we demand justice, we also are expected to dole it out to others
(Golden Rule). Thus, I don't believe the "I didn't know I was guilty" theory.
Adults KNOW they did something wrong, even if they have never been 'saved'.

The conscience is not about seeking justice, it is empathy. With all humility, that was the devil's ignorance wherein he had no mercy. It is hard for me to appropriately understand what you mean by "you don't believe the "I didn't know I was guilty" theory". That is a major component of the Gospel and the impetus to lay one's life down for another, "forgive them for they know not what they do". Therefore if Christ is not a fool, then I am certain that someone who is estranged from God would not have the empathy to feel guilty for it. Hence their mind would be carnaly motivated. Also at the same time and in the opposite direction of reasoning there are those who feel guilty, who never did anything wrong.

As to the blood of Christ clearing my conscience, that is based upon knowledge
of God's forgiveness.

Yes this is true, even because God's Spirit is our empathy. Hence you might as well have said cleansing the conscience comes from having mercy and understanding but most of all the humility to know it is God in us.

Vicarious suffering for another was commonly accepted 2000 years ago, and still
is, to some degree. The teachings of Scripture rely on the idea in the
case of the Mediator between God and Man, Jesus Christ. Just as the "Old"
Adam brought about death and destruction for us because of HIS sin, the "New"
Adam brought about salvation and freedom because of HIS obedience. Before,
I was in the first Adam. Now, I am in the second Adam. The idea of
corporate and vicarious action bind this idea of a cleared conscience.

I'm not sure what your point is here. I picture a classroom where all the kids get punished for one persons mistake. That to me is wrong. However if the whole class was rewarded for one persons good deed. I find nothing wrong with that, so says my conscience. And although this equation appears unjust, it is because it is greater than justice. Life and death are not equals. At any rate, and I assume you know, that is not what the first Adam and the second Adam are meant to imply. The first Adam is carnal and the second spiritual. This means that in Adam we took God for granted, and in Christ we Love and cherish Him with all our hearts minds and souls. Hence the original lie has been obliviated by an undeniable Truth in the conscience, which is that God is all that is good in us and He is Holy and Eternal. Since this is the one Truth that can live in all men and yet there are many lies that can live in one man we can see why one lie coming down from heaven can affect all underneath while another man's work on earth (the cross) can affect all of heaven.

Today, in the highly individualistic world, this might be more difficult to
accept/understand. But God has freely decided to forgive us based upon what He
has done for us at the cross.

It was God Himself who is on the cross. The cross was to defeat Satan so that sins could be forgiven.

 

[francisdesales]

The only point here that I am not sure about is the first one, "Can a person lose their salvation."
The Bible clearly states that nothing can take us out of His hand. I take that to mean that God will not let us down and he will not foresake us. His faith is perfect. But I do think it is possible for us to jump out of his hand on our own. After all, isn't that precisely what Adam did? He had the perfect life in physical perfect fellowship with God himself and yet chose to disobey.

I think people presume too quickly that they are one of the predestined elect, which the verse you allude to is speaking about. It does not follow that a person having faith today cannot lose it tomorrow, unless one presumes that they are. People are warned not to presume such things.

We do not know if we are one of the elect, until we stand before Christ and He will say "well done, good and faithful servant..."

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The conscience is not about seeking justice, it is empathy.

Empathy??? Perhaps. Usually, it is what tells us is the right and proper action.

I didn't say that the conscience is about seeking justice, but rather, proof that it is not totally deluded and taken over by satan. We feel we have wronged someone when justice is not provided (using the standards applied to ourselves).

It is hard for me to appropriately understand what you mean by "you don't believe the "I didn't know I was guilty" theory. That is a major component of the Gospel and the impetus to lay one's life down for another, "forgive them for they know not what they do". Therefore if Christ is not a fool, then I am certain that someone who is estranged from God would not have the empathy to feel guilty for it. Hence their mind would be carnaly motivated. Also at the same time and in the opposite direction of reasoning there are those who feel guilty, who never did anything wrong.

I am not saying I have no empathy! I am only saying that people can know they are guilty of sin, even if they don't know how to define it. When justice fails, we know it. Thus, I disagreed. The impetus for Christ to lay down His life was not to satisfy a legal requirement, but out of love for man and obedience to the Father. This merited forgiveness of mankind, in the Father's eyes, not out of legal requirement. When we become aware of the relationship between the Father and the Son, and what has happened, we can come to believe that our conscience has been cleansed.

In addition, Paul states in Romans 1 that man SHOULD know better by their own natural ability that they are rejecting God - which is a travesty against justice.

I'm not sure what your point is here. I picture a classroom where all the kids get punished for one persons mistake. That to me is wrong.

That's because we live in an environment of individualism. Our society has forgotten the corporateness of the church/community. It is quite biblical. The point is that society as a whole is punished/rewarded by God. That can be quite comforting, that God is willing to overlook some of my personal sins at the intercession from someone more holy than myself. On the other hand, my community deserves punishment if I, as part of the community, am not making the effort to change things.

At any rate, and I assume you know, that is not what the first Adam and the second Adam are meant to imply. The first Adam is carnal and the second spiritual.

I take it you read Romans 5? The theme is as I laid it out.

It was God Himself who is on the cross. The cross was to defeat Satan so that sins could be forgiven.

God could have chosen any means of forgiving us of sin. The main point of Jesus becoming man was so that we, as man, could be raised up as a whole to God. And so, as a whole, we are redeemed.

Regards