Some of the serious NT warnings to the churches

[Deborah13]

Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:6

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.


Not sure if I can convey my thoughts.... For this post law = pretty much the Ten commandments

Those laws are a wonderful set of rules to live by... Who here sets out to break them?
The difference I see is the WHY we tend to 'keep' the laws...
He has put the laws in our heart. Not laws on a cold piece of stone .. We live sorta by them not for salvation. (That is by His blood and His Grace..). But because there are His plan...
Anyone trying to find/keep salvation by keeping the laws, ANY of the OT laws , is saying the Cross was not enough. Which breaks the first of the commandments

Amen

 

[P31Woman]

Amen

I second that. I think most of us who feel that way read Pslams 119 and it just does something within us. We see love all over it.

 

[Deborah13]

I second that. I think most of us who feel that way read Pslams 119 and it just does something within us. We see love all over it.

I have two others that give me comfort and strength. Ps. 23 and Is. 40:30-31
Many yrs ago in church we would sing. Is. 40:31.

Ps 23 - I find is relevant to whatever is happening in my life. Good and bad, blessing or chastisement, I find peace and love.

 

[Mitspa]

What does it matter? I said they were under typical Evangelical teaching, which typically does not include anything to with the Law. The main point is that I have given two facts: 1. this person was most certainly a Christian, and 2. they have been living a very worldly life for the last 15 years or so.

Those two facts lead to only two possible conclusions:

1. They are still saved.
2. They were saved and now they are not.


Do not presume to know why I haven't given a biblical challenge. I was merely showing how we must include reason and experience in bringing about a full theology.


Firstly, I have insulted no one. Secondly, I have given two very clear facts which must be taken into account. And thirdly, it is only your view of what "the truth of Scripture" is that makes you think what I have said is merely my opinion.


There are many warnings that have nothing to do with Law but rather are about not continuing to walk the way believers are called to walk or getting caught up in doctrines of demons.

what was those doctrines of demons, how did Paul decribe them in this passage? Those who forbide to marry and forbide the eating of meats.
Paul stands against those who teach law, this cannot be challenged. It is evident.
Bring a biblical debate, then If you have issue with what I have taught, make it by the scriptures.
The law is not of faith, those who attempt to be justified by the law, have fallen from grace.
The strength of sin is the law.
The Ministry of death and condemnation, written and engraved on stones. The Ten Commandments.
I would not have known sin except the law had said "thou shalt not covet" but the commandment produced in me all types of evil desire, for apart from the law, sin is dead.

These things are written in black and white, no one has even attempted to give a biblical answer to any of these scriptures.

As far as the guy you say is in the world, I say better in the world with the sinners than in a chruch that is full of hypocrites. The Lord showed mercy to the sinners but came with anger upon the hypocrites.

 

[childeye]

Empathy??? Perhaps. Usually, it is what tells us
is the right and proper action.

I didn't say that the conscience is
about seeking justice, but rather, proof that it is not totally deluded and
taken over by satan. We feel we have wronged someone when justice is not
provided (using the standards applied to ourselves).

Semantics are always the problem with communicating. Perhaps I should have said the conscience is not "only" about justice. I take from this that you are saying there is some degree of expectation for personal responsibility based upon the fact that we know what we would want done to us. (The Golden rule). How I wish you were right here so you could validate that assessment before I proceed any further and demean us both. However since you aren't, I am going to assume I am right and rely on your understanding. Also I hate wasting your time and mine. I agree with you, since there must be something we reason upon that makes sense lest insanity prevail. So assuming that I am sane, I would say to you that this is ground we need not cover. What transcends the golden rule? Why is it the second commandment? My post is about Loving God with all heart mind and soul wherefore Satan and the negative energy he represents in the creation is based upon a false impression of God and the Godhead. I see it as an ignorance of that which is Holy by reason of being created and not the Creator. It is therefore an anomoly based on doubt that transcends our own abilities which only God can fix through revelation of Himself. In fact it may be the means to an end from God's all knowing view. How do I do unto others what I would want done to me if I don't know who I am?

I am not saying I have no empathy! I am only saying that people can know they
are guilty of sin, even if they don't know how to define it. When justice
fails, we know it. Thus, I disagreed.

The problem is always semantics. Of course you have empathy. I fail to see with what you disagreed. My post began by addressing the guilt that I knew was there but didn't know why. Sin must be a consequence of ignorance. Hence the Truth sets a man free. We may know but don't know we know.

The impetus for Christ to lay down His life was not to satisfy a legal
requirement, but out of love for man and obedience to the Father.
This merited forgiveness of mankind, in the Father's eyes, not out of
legal requirement.

The problem is always semantics. With that in mind, yes you are right about the impetus in Christ to lay down his life. But at the same time and with no disrespect, his impetus was to satisfy the legal requirment which was demanded by the law which was against us, whom he would out of Love lay his life down for in obedience to God. If I said that wrong or you hear it other than what was intended, I am not surprised. Proof that there exists things that are no one's fault. Moreover, the impetus for crucifying Jesus was not itself in adherence to the law but was a self-serving motive as per Satan's mistaken view of the Godhead. The vineyard keepers wanted the son's inheritance.

When we become aware of the relationship between the Father and the Son,
and what has happened, we can come to believe that our conscience has been
cleansed.

True. I am only pointing out the mechanics of how that happened for me. Since it has come from believing the words "forgive them for they know not what they do" that were uttered upon the cross of the Christ, I can only assume that it is similar for every man that sees God there in the form of a higher Love.

In addition, Paul states in Romans 1 that man SHOULD know better by their own
natural ability that they are rejecting God - which is a travesty against
justice.

I will be more blount here and say exactly what Paul said in the definitive, 'There is no excuse for worshipping the creation over the Creator". That is an axiom as in a mental excercise meant to establish a grounds for Paul to point out the crucial mistake. That should not be applied to mean that Adam and Eve knew they were hurting God and themselves with an intent to do harm. Of course that was plain to see in my post since I am addressing the guilt and my heartfelt sorrow. Now there cannot be any true and sincere heartfelt sorrow without me understanding the hurt imposed upon God by my mistake. If it was on purpose however, it was no mistake and there is no Godly sorrow. I suspect that is why you said "SHOULD know better". Of what use is mercy and understanding if there are no mistakes happening?

God could have chosen any means of forgiving us of sin. The main point of Jesus
becoming man was so that we, as man, could be raised up as a whole to God. And
so, as a whole, we are redeemed.

I'm not sure I get this but I think I do. Nonetheless Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. And that was through the cross.

Are we in agreement yet? Are we one in the body of Christ?

 

[Mitspa]

I think people presume too quickly that they are one of the predestined elect, which the verse you allude to is speaking about. It does not follow that a person having faith today cannot lose it tomorrow, unless one presumes that they are. People are warned not to presume such things.

We do not know if we are one of the elect, until we stand before Christ and He will say "well done, good and faithful servant..."

Regards

Yes you are right in part? Those of you who seek to be justified by law, have been cut off from Christ, you have fallen from grace.

The law is not of faith, so yes if one was to go back into law they could NOT be in faith.
I doubt they are elect?

 

[francisdesales]

Rom_7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 7:6

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

6 But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.


Not sure if I can convey my thoughts.... For this post law = pretty much the Ten commandments

Those laws are a wonderful set of rules to live by... Who here sets out to break them?
The difference I see is the WHY we tend to 'keep' the laws...
He has put the laws in our heart. Not laws on a cold piece of stone .. We live sorta by them not for salvation. (That is by His blood and His Grace..). But because there are His plan...
Anyone trying to find/keep salvation by keeping the laws, ANY of the OT laws , is saying the Cross was not enough. Which breaks the first of the commandments

I think you mean "anyone trying to earn salvation by keeping the law is saying that the Cross was not enough". We are told we MUST obey the commandments, if we love Christ. Do we?

Obedience to the Law is not, in of itself, wrong. God commands us to, and Moses says that they are NOT too difficult (yea, not impossible...) to follow. What is at stake here is the heart of the follower. Do I rely on grace to fulfill the commandments of Christ, or am i looking to obligate or place God in debt by being a "good Christian". Legalism v love. The same "works" are being done, but how are they being accomplished?

Regards

 

[Mitspa]

I think you mean "anyone trying to earn salvation by keeping the law is saying that the Cross was not enough". We are told we MUST obey the commandments, if we love Christ. Do we?

Obedience to the Law is not, in of itself, wrong. God commands us to, and Moses says that they are NOT too difficult (yea, not impossible...) to follow. What is at stake here is the heart of the follower. Do I rely on grace to fulfill the commandments of Christ, or am i looking to obligate or place God in debt by being a "good Christian". Legalism v love. The same "works" are being done, but how are they being accomplished?

Regards

Well it is always good to read the whole context of a passage and then one must consider the Gospel of Paul. The scripture you refer to goes on to say "and this is My Commandment to love as He has loved" So this is ecaxtly what Reba and I and more important Paul teaches that ALL THE LAW IS FULFILLED IN THE IS ONE WORD.
so we are not looking for the written code but Gods love in the Spirit by which we love others and fufill the purpose for which the law was intended.
Now you have said over and over that you are not trying to put believers under the law of Moses, but here you take a scripture out of context and try to present it in a dishonest way. The law of Moses calls this "false witness" and Paul makes this very point! That those who teach the law are ALWAYS breakers of the law. This is lawlessness. When one claims to keep and be under a law, yet will not obey that law.

By the way I am not sure if you are trying to quote from Johns gospel or 1 John but it does not matter because they both go on to explain what commandments are to be kept, and this is not the Commandments of Moses.

 

[childeye]

I have Love right here in my heart. It is pure, therefore I am not boasting but only saying that It is God. And because I have this Love, I have no desire to murder, steal, or in any way hurt anybody. Can this Love depart from me? If it did would I even care?

 

[francisdesales]

I have Love right here in my heart. It is pure, therefore I am not boasting but only saying that It is God. And because I have this Love, I have no desire to murder, steal, or in any way hurt anybody. Can this Love depart from me? If it did would I even care?

Oh, that is a deep and profound question!!

 

[childeye]

Oh, that is a deep and profound question!!

Wow I said something? Let the boasting begin. Grace, grace, grace.

 

[Mitspa]

Wow Reba! I have never heard your understanding of this before, but only bits and pieces here and there. I think you establish an honest point of truth for further debate on the issue.
I am short of time but would agree with this post and say that I also honor the law of moses, for the purpose Pauls decribes.
In essence as a witness against us all, that none of us can keep Gods standard by our own ability, but must have another source of righteousness that being the Spirit who sheds Gods love abroad in our hearts, by which we love others, thus we fulfill that which the written code represents. For the law was a shadow or type of the promise to come. The law is spiritual its was a written code that represented that which we have.

Thus Paul says, not by the letter for the letter kills, but by the Spirit for the Spirit gives life.

I think I should continue into the truth, no man can keep the letter because that would be a work of the flesh. A product of mans efforts to attain righteousness. Nothing good can be brought from man nor can man have a work that God will accept. Only that which Christ did is accepted by The Father.
Now a man MUST BE BORN-AGAIN. by the Spirit of God. A man must have the Spirit or he IS NOT saved.
Now I would be carful here and not "unsave" anyone, because I think all believers have doubts and struggle to know if the Holy Spirit dwells in them? Having said that, the law is spiritual, it was a written representation of the the Spirit that would come and shed Gods love in our heart. Now no man has ever kept a cammandment apart from the Spirit of God. For in truth it is the Holy Spirit that loves THROUGH US. here is the ONLY WAY to fulfill that which the law demanded. Thus we have Paul saying over and over? "WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND YOU WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH" WE WHO WALK IN THE SPIRIT FULFILL THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW"

there is no other way, there is no other gospel.

 

[Deborah13]

I think I should continue into the truth, no man can keep the letter because that would be a work of the flesh. A product of mans efforts to attain righteousness. Nothing good can be brought from man nor can man have a work that God will accept. Only that which Christ did is accepted by The Father.
Now a man MUST BE BORN-AGAIN. by the Spirit of God. A man must have the Spirit or he IS NOT saved.
Now I would be carful here and not "unsave" anyone, because I think all believers have doubts and stuggle to know if the Holy Spirit dwells in them? Having said that, the law is spiritual, it was a written representation of the the Spirit that would come and shed Gods love in our heart. Now no man has ever kept a cammandment apart from the Spirit of God. For in truth it is the Holy Spirit that loves THROUGH US. here is the ONLY WAY to fulfill that which the law demanded. Thus we have Paul saying over and over? "WALK IN THE SPIRIT AND YOU WILL NOT FULFILL THE LUST OF THE FLESH" WE WHO WALK IN THE SPIRIT FULFILL THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE LAW"

there is no other way, there is no other gospel.

 

[francisdesales]

I thought I would clarify this, Reba;

The Scriptures that speak about obedience to the commandments on a number of occasions. Jesus tells us in Matt 19:21:
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

It should be obvious to most that the context here is the Law given by God to Moses... "Perfect" is the same word Jesus uses in Matt 5:48 - "Be perfect.." Yes, love your enemies. Show mercy. Grant forgiveness.

Or

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

Jesus details His commandments in the Sermon on the Mount. "You have heard it said, BUT I TELL YOU..." and continues to expound on the true meaning of the Decalogue and how we are to treat our neighbor and God. He tells us that He did not come to do away with the Law. Thus, His teachings BUILD upon what the Jews already had, the Law from the "finger of God"

God expects us to obey the commandments, with His Grace. He does not expect perfection and the Law was CERTAINLY not put there to show how sinful we are.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

joe, the torah was intent to be a teacher to show us where we need to change by itself it didn't change us. ie when david commited adultery and murder, why didn't he die? there was no way he could be forgiven. yet god forgave him. noah found grace in the eyes of god. the law is to teach us that we need the atonement and the power to be holy cometh from god, not within ourselves.

 

[Mitspa]

I thought I would clarify this, Reba;

The Scriptures that speak about obedience to the commandments on a number of occasions. Jesus tells us in Matt 19:21:
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

It should be obvious to most that the context here is the Law given by God to Moses... "Perfect" is the same word Jesus uses in Matt 5:48 - "Be perfect.." Yes, love your enemies. Show mercy. Grant forgiveness.

Or

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

Jesus details His commandments in the Sermon on the Mount. "You have heard it said, BUT I TELL YOU..." and continues to expound on the true meaning of the Decalogue and how we are to treat our neighbor and God. He tells us that He did not come to do away with the Law. Thus, His teachings BUILD upon what the Jews already had, the Law from the "finger of God"

God expects us to obey the commandments, with His Grace. He does not expect perfection and the Law was CERTAINLY not put there to show how sinful we are.

Regards

John 15:10-12 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in My love, even as I have kept my Fathers Commanments, and abide in His Love.
15:12 THIS IS MY COMMANDMENT, that you love one another as I have loved you.

This is explained by Paul and others, this is the Royal Law that fulfills all the law.

 

[jasoncran]

jews don't call the torah the law but describe it as teacher. I can use slavery to show this.if you care to indulge.

 

[childeye]

John 15:10-12 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in My love, even as I have kept my Fathers Commanments, and abide in His Love.
15:12 THIS IS MY COMMANDMENT, that you love one another as I have loved you.

This is explained by Paul and others, this is the Royal Law that fulfills all the law.

This is true and the deepest of Truths given in all heaven and earth, and he climbed onto his cross and showed His Love. And I weep at the sight.

 

[jasoncran]

the idea of the torah was to teach men of GOD's nature.

 

[Mitspa]

Consider that Paul said satan would attempt to deceive believers from the simplicty of Christ, as the serpent deceived eve? Did god really say?
The simplicty of Christ? Faith working by love.

Consider that Paul taught this to the Jews that had been under the yoke of Law? "love fulfills all of it" Recieve the Holy Spirit and Gods love, now love others as you have been love, only do not eat again from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

What a wonderful God, consider that we have a law that only demands what God gives freely? For we are responsible to love others based upon the love we know and have received.
God does not ask my brother Edward to love others according to my knowledge of His love, but according to edwards knowledge of Gods love for Him. Which very well could be above my own? The mystery of godliness.