(Some) OSASers must believe that God created human robots!

[Stan1953]

It wasn't simply that Jesus foreknew Judas would betray Him it's also that Judas showed through his actions that he wasn't a true follower. He stole when he was trusted with the bag etc. Jesus knew who Judas was at the time He selected him into the 12 for the very reason that he was a devil.

Again the fact that in retrospect they knew Judas stole from their money as the treasurer, is just that. It states nothing about his initial state of belief, but always from an "after the fact" POV. No doubt Jesus in His foreknowledge knew, just as He knew Peter would deny Him after He was betrayed by Judas, but He treated them all the same.

I accept the definition of traitor now but not in the sense that you suggest it means he was a believer. He simply betrayed someone he was supposed to support. If Judas was prophesied to do what he did how can we suggest it's only after the fact that he became an unbeliever. This seems very odd to me especially since he showed throughout the ministry he acted contrary to his position.

Again your acceptance is filtered through your POV, instead of the reverse. Everything you read about Judas is from the back end, not the front end. One reason is that there was another Judas in the disciples, and one of Jesus' siblings was also named Judas. I understand the need to differentiate from their perspective, but there desire to be clear as to who was who, also seems to allow some to make assumptions NOT in evidence in those same scriptures.

But you must endure to be saved which is the point of the admonition to not fall away. Matthew 20 1-16 is about those who come in late I'm not sure how it relates to falling away.

Believing for a while doesn't imply salvation I'm not sure why you think it does. If this is true you must accept that a person who falls away can't ever return is this your position ?

Because it doesn't matter of one is saved the day Jesus returns or 1000 years earlier. They both receive the same result, Eternal Life.

Salvation is an instantaneous process. Jesus said on more than one occasion, "Your faith has saved you."
Believing in the NT means being saved. That is pretty much the message in Heb 6:4-6, "....It is impossible for those.....who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

Ok. Do you accept that there were Jews, and still are, that believe in Yahweh but are not true believers ie. saved ? Also do you accept there are currently people who profess to be Christian who are not saved ?
Oh I forgot about Ananias and Sapphira. Are you suggesting they're unsaved ?

I know all Jews are not saved and I know all those who profess to be Christian are not saved. I know because we have God's Word that teaches us that, as it teaches believers fall away and shrink back.
I fail to understand these kind of questions, as the one about Ananias and Sapphira, when I very clearly stated the opposite of what you ask? You've done it a few times. I suggest you read my responses slower and more carefully, otherwise I will come to believe you equivocate deliberately.

So do you get how there were Jews who believed in Yahweh but weren't saved ? I'm not sure how you think a pre Cross Jew was considered part of the saved /remnant at this stage can you explain ?

I'm not sure what you're driving at? Those who believed in God under the OT but did not believe in Jesus under the NT, were not saved. It's not really relevant here.

Ok so it's your position that everyone who professes with their mouth is saved is that right ?

Again another example of an equivocal question when I have answered this clearly a few times WITH scripture. What does Rom 10:9-11 state?

 

[Stan1953]

Hi Stan. I'm not really sure what your belief is in Heb 6:4-6. Are you using this scripture to prove born again christians can lose their salvation and go to hell.
This scripture is speaking of Jewish christians. There's a difference between a "religious christian" and..................a born again christian. In your opinion, what is the difference.

WOW!
Why do so many read my posts but not understand what I say? Or is it they do and just want to equivocate? It's frustrating sometimes.

Luke is addressing Christians, mostly Jewish ones. His examples are fully mature believers/Christians, and he confirms they can fall away. Why do I always get accused of saying they can "LOSE" their salvation? I have never said that, but there seems to be a certain dogmatic mindset that sees the words 'fall away' or 'shrink back', and hear 'LOSE' in their mind. Either that or there is a course on how to muddle this kind of discussion, that I am not aware of?
Your distinction is not valid, as the NT teaches there is neither Jew nor Gentile in God's eyes, and this letter is written to the Hebrews.
As far as I can tell, the word Jew or Jewish is not used once in Hebrews. Chapter 3:1 is the first time Luke addresses anyone. Maybe you can tell us who you see as being addressed there?

 

[Deborah13]

As I said in an earlier post, our old man after the nature of our flesh is the being that was in need of salvation; But if we are a new man created in Christ, then what salvation does the new man require? When you ask if a person can lose their justification, repent and then get it back again, I would ask from what perspective do you seek your answer? Do you desire to know the position relative to the Lord or do you want to understand doctrines of men? I would tell you from my understanding, that the position of the Lord would be that he would not take back a gift that he has freely given. I am convinced in my own mind that if I were to fall into the deepest depths of hell that the Lord will never depart me. The question is not of the Lord's loyalty to his promise, but rather our loyalty to Faith that begs an answer. Through the new covenant, the Lord has brought us under his Grace, and he has promised us that our sins and iniquities he would remember no more. It is never the Lord that departs from man, but to the contrary, it has always been man that has departed from the Lord. It is the doctrines of men that would tell you to be in fear of losing your salvation, giving the enemy a foothold to cause you to doubt in your flesh, shifting your focus away from the spirit and back onto the flesh where his dominion is. Maybe the answer to your question can be found in the story of the Prodigal Son.

I appreciate your reply and explanation as to why you believe what you do. I don't need to ask what you believe. I'm wondering what others believe because to me the scripture of Hebrews 6:4-6 is very clear. If a believer were to completely give up their belief then they CANNOT be brought to repentance. They would stay away forever because it is only the working of the Holy Spirit that can bring one to the place of a repentant heart.
So the conclusion for me is that one cannot be saved, unsaved, and resaved.

 

[DRS81]

WOW!
Why do so many read my posts but not understand what I say? Or is it they do and just want to equivocate? It's frustrating sometimes.

Luke is addressing Christians, mostly Jewish ones. His examples are fully mature believers/Christians, and he confirms they can fall away. Why do I always get accused of saying they can "LOSE" their salvation? I have never said that, but there seems to be a certain dogmatic mindset that sees the words 'fall away' or 'shrink back', and hear 'LOSE' in their mind. Either that or there is a course on how to muddle this kind of discussion, that I am not aware of?
Your distinction is not valid, as the NT teaches there is neither Jew nor Gentile in God's eyes, and this letter is written to the Hebrews.
As far as I can tell, the word Jew or Jewish is not used once in Hebrews. Chapter 3:1 is the first time Luke addresses anyone. Maybe you can tell us who you see as being addressed there?

But it says it's impossible to renew them again to repentance. That's not biblical for a born again christian. The Holy Spirit will convict believers and bring them back to repentance. 2 Peter 2:9

Just because a christian is mature doesn't mean their saved. For the born again christian, it is always possible to repent and be brought back. I believe the word 'impossible' isn't (literal), but rather it's (metaphorical.) As long as they are alive, it is always possible for a nonbeliever and a believer to repent. The only unforgivable sin is dying in your sins. I believe Hebrews 6:4-6 is speaking (metaphorically) about the conditions of our hearts. He's warning us that if we don't pass our tests, life will be that much harder. Nothing more, nothing less.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

 

[John Zain]

1Co 5:4-5 KJV In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

"may be (i.e. may be, might be) saved" ... not "will be saved"!

 

[John Zain]

Sorry you've lost me.

Inside joke with those who knew Jethro, but didn't appreciate his spiritual wisdom.
Alas, seems he has left.

 

[John Zain]

Cool, check out his book called Eternal Security by Dr Charles Stanley.
It's very good, and will strengthen your walk and assurance in Christ.

News Flash! ... Charles is a Baptist, so methinks re: dis delicate topic,
he has to side with the Baptists (most of whom are adamant OSASers).

 

[DRS81]

News Flash! ... Charles is a Baptist, so methinks re: dis delicate topic,
he has to side with the Baptists (most of whom are adamant OSASers).

Charles is a baptist, and what are you John.

 

[John Zain]

Ananias and Sapphira were true believers when the Holy Spirit struck them down.

Yes, BACs can and do purposefully sin.
In this extremely important case, they served as an example and a warning for us all.

 

[John Zain]

Keep in mind, Paul was writing to the Church in Galatia.
Please consider these things as you grow in the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Keep in mind, Paul did not forget to mention in his letters to Ephesus and Colossae,
dat he was writing to the FAITHFUL saints who were der.

Please consider these things as you read:
everything written in those letters were written to dis sub-group sitting in the church pews!

 

[agua.]

Because it doesn't matter of one is saved the day Jesus returns or 1000 years earlier. They both receive the same result, Eternal Life.

Salvation is an instantaneous process. Jesus said on more than one occasion, "Your faith has saved you."
Believing in the NT means being saved. That is pretty much the message in Heb 6:4-6, "....It is impossible for those.....who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."



I know all Jews are not saved and I know all those who profess to be Christian are not saved. I know because we have God's Word that teaches us that, as it teaches believers fall away and shrink back.
I fail to understand these kind of questions, as the one about Ananias and Sapphira, when I very clearly stated the opposite of what you ask? You've done it a few times. I suggest you read my responses slower and more carefully, otherwise I will come to believe you equivocate deliberately.

Ok this is interesting and it seems your saying a believer can't lose their salvation but can leave the Church. I haven't seen you say this in this string can you show me where ? I'd hate to be a deliberate equivocator :D. I can't really reply to anything else you say here until I'm sure of what you're presenting but I have read of an explanation for the falling away in Hebrews 6 that suggests the subjects are true believers and the falling away implies a leaving the
Church but not losing salvation which is interesting and plausible.

 

[agua.]

"may (i.e. may be, might be) be saved" ... not "will be saved"!

Definition of "may be saved". May may not mean what you may think.

G4982
σώζω
sōzō
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

 

[John Zain]

Charles is a baptist, and what are you John.

I began evangelical, was promoted to Pentecostal, then Charismatic ...
all of this before Jesus called me to be an evangelist and sent me to evangelize in Bulgaria (starting in 1992).

 

[John Zain]

Definition of "may be saved". May may not mean what you may think.
G4982
σώζω
sōzō
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, “safe”); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

I was guessing ... but it would not surprise me that the English translation is faulty.
Do you think "will" is closer to the Greek?

 

[Deborah13]

WOW!
Why do so many read my posts but not understand what I say? Or is it they do and just want to equivocate? It's frustrating sometimes.

Luke is addressing Christians, mostly Jewish ones. His examples are fully mature believers/Christians, and he confirms they can fall away. Why do I always get accused of saying they can "LOSE" their salvation? I have never said that, but there seems to be a certain dogmatic mindset that sees the words 'fall away' or 'shrink back', and hear 'LOSE' in their mind. Either that or there is a course on how to muddle this kind of discussion, that I am not aware of?
Your distinction is not valid, as the NT teaches there is neither Jew nor Gentile in God's eyes, and this letter is written to the Hebrews.
As far as I can tell, the word Jew or Jewish is not used once in Hebrews. Chapter 3:1 is the first time Luke addresses anyone. Maybe you can tell us who you see as being addressed there?

Stan, I agree that the believers in Hebrews 6:4-6 are definitely believers and very mature believers and that if they were to fall away they would be lost forever, for it is 'Impossible' for them to be renewed because that would mean Christ would have to be crucified again for them.
Correct?
So one cannot be justified, unjustified, and be justified again. Correct?

Thinking on that......When we are justified in Christ, how complete is this work of God? Is it just a partial work? Is that justifying blood of the Lamb only a partial work of justification, such as the blood of bulls and goats?

 

[DRS81]

I began evangelical, was promoted to Pentecostal, then Charismatic ...
all of this before Jesus called me to be an evangelist and sent me to evangelize in Bulgaria (starting in 1992).

But you take a lot of scripture out of context to fit your agenda. Is there a way to evangelize without doing that.

 

[DRS81]

Deborah13 Read post 124, and lemme know what u think. I believe the word (impossible) isn't literal, but is speaking metaphorical....about the condition of our hearts.

 

[agua.]

I was guessing ... but it would not surprise me that the English translation is faulty.
Do you think "will" is closer to the Greek?

I don't know why "may" is used probably because of the verb form.

G4982
σώζω
sōzō
Thayer Definition:
1) to save, keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction
1a) one (from injury or peril)
1a1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
1b1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
1b) to save in the technical biblical sense
1b1) negatively
1b1a) to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgment
1b1b) to save from the evils which obstruct the reception of the Messianic deliverance
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saoz, “safe”)
Citing in TDNT: 7:965, 1132

 

[Deborah13]

Deborah13 Read post 124, and lemme know what u think. I believe the word (impossible) isn't literal, but is speaking metaphorical....about the condition of our hearts.

I read that post but I do not agree with you.
That scripture simply says that if one is justified by Christ, they cannot be unjustified by Christ, and then be rejustified by Christ.
That scripture eliminates the idea that a believer that has been justified by Christ (saved) can be unsaved and saved again.
It is not talking about repenting of sin committed as a saved person, of coarse there is repentance for sin. This is just talking about justification by Christ, through His shed blood.
So for me the question is just how powerful was that shed blood? How complete a justification is the work of God in those who believe?

What is your interpretation of the next two verses? I think they are the explanation of what the author of Hebrews is talking about.

 

[agua.]

A neat little trinity ... Jethro Bodine, you, and I ... aren't we?

Inside joke with those who knew Jethro, but didn't appreciate his spiritual wisdom.
Alas, seems he has left.

Pro 27:2 Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips.