Everyone who rejects the idea that it is God who predestins those who will be saved, believes that they are the god like being who determins whether they are saved.
( Being sarcastic about God like being )
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Some Won't Get Saved
- Thread starter GodsGrace
- Start date
( Being sarcastic about God like being )
Butch5
Member
Where does Scrioture say God predestines those who will be saved?
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I speak to the reformed and they can't seem to show me any scripture that states that it's God that chooses who will be saved.
Would YOU like to give it a try?
I can't find any such verse.
As you have just done, we (on the other side) are told that it's either God that saves or we save ourselves.
HOW do you suppose we save ourselves?
What does this mean anyway?
It's Jesus that does the saving.
It's our faith that does the saving.
We are saved by God's grace THROUGH FAITH.
Believe and you will be saved.
BELIEVE.
Confess with the mouth ....
An act we must make.
??
First adam can believe the many mind states, we all came down so grace covers it all. when we judge it shows the first adam is still asleep in secular history.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
What do you mean that Adam is still asleep in secular history?
wondering,
It breaks my heart to say my youngest child (a son aged 42) is a kind, generous father to his wife and 2 young girls. He is generous, phoning me once a week to see how I'm doing.
He was raised in a Christian home, attended churches and Christian schools but is not now serving the Lord. His wife has influenced him to skeptical thinking and actions.
He works in the media dept. at Australia's parliament house.
I've written this article to try to address his life after death issues. He doesn't believe in the afterlife: Evidence for the afterlife
Oz
Last edited:
zeke55,
I think you are inventing things here. We learn from Gen 5:5, "Altogether, Adam lived 930 years, and then he died" (Gen 5:5 NIV).
Adam has died and has gone to the place where such people go at OT death, which was called Sheol.
Oz
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Oz,,,,
Been thinking of you.
Hope you're OK.
Been listening to Norman Geisler on YouTube.
He's good,,,,I like him.
You've mentioned him many times.
Will read the article you wrote and repost tomorrow.
Late here.
wondering,
Norman has been my mentor at a distance for many years. I thank God for giving his gifts to us. Sadly, many conservatives and non-conservatives do not appreciate his depth of biblical wisdom.
However, I should expect that in churches that don't seem to have any concepts of renewing the mind in true godliness.
A leading book publisher has accepted my first chapter and outline of remaining chapters for a book. I'm into chapter 2 and should have the book finished in about a year.
I'd love to have a title for it such as, How to Screw Up Your Reading of Any Book in 5 Easy Lessons. The editor will help me with a more progressive and to-the-point title.
Oz
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I rather like that title!
It makes a person be very curious as to what it'll be about....
And....
wondering,
Thank you for your encouragement. The book is a critique of how to stuff up reading and listening by taking notice of the pranks the postmodern deconstructionists play on us, particularly by leaders of the historical Jesus movement such as John Dominic Crossan of the Jesus Seminar. If you want to read a short version of his heresy, take a read of Jesus: A Revolutionary Biography.
I've taken a quote from his very large book of 1998, The Birth of Christianity, to show the radical nature of his postmodern deconstruction, ‘I formulate it here as I see it.’ There we learn that Jesus' resurrection was an apparition (ghost/phantom) and he was buried in a shallow grave to be eaten by scavenging dogs. I find it difficult to understand the depths this former RC priest has plummeted in inventing his postmodern Jesus.
However, it's not surprising how many newbies he can pull out of the hat when he has an attitude of 'I formulate it here as I see it." My PhD supervisor has sent off one of my articles to a journal, 'First, read the text.' He complained about the content of his visit to see the drama of the Passion Play at Oberammergau, (Bavaria, Germany), 'First, read the text," yet he tears biblical texts apart with his deconstructionist technique.
Sadly, you won't see me much around this forum as I plod away on this book and some journal articles. I've also moved into an aged care room where it is causing me some angst to get the agency to wash, dry and iron my clothes. It is a requirement under the Australian Aged Care Act for all 'laundering' (i.e. washing, drying, and ironing) to be done by the agency. Seems the agency has has been cutting corners for a while.
Blessings,
Oz
wondering,
There is an interesting debate, now available in print form online, debate between Dr William Lane Craig (supporting free will) and Dr Ray Bradley, "Can a Loving God Send People to Hell? The Craig-Bradley Debate."
Craig argues that ALL will not hear the Gospel:
"The Bible says that from the created order alone, all persons can know that a Creator God exists and that God has implanted His moral law in the hearts of all persons so that they are held morally accountable to God (Rom. 1.20; 2.14-15). The Bible promises salvation to anyone who responds affirmatively to this self-revelation of God (Rom. 2.7).
"Now this does not mean that they can be saved apart from Christ. Rather it means that the benefits of Christ's sacrifice can be applied to them without their conscious knowledge of Christ. They would be like people in the Old Testament before Jesus came who had no conscious knowledge of Christ but who were saved on the basis of his sacrifice through their response to the information that God had revealed to them. And, thus, salvation is truly available to all persons at all times. It all depends upon our free response."
I would add what Romans states: "Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse" (Rom 1:19-20).
So, people do not need to hear the Gospel to have a reason to accept or reject Jesus. They need to deal with the revelation God has given them in creation and conscience (Rom 2:7) to face the Judge of all the earth.
Oz
Romans 8:28-30
Eph 1:+5
Butch5
Member
Hi Who Me,
Actually, Ephesians 1:5 is speaking of the Jews, however, I doesn't speak of being save. God said, 'Israel is my son'. God had made some promises to Abraham that included Isrsel.
Likewise, I noticed that you posted Rimans 8:28-30. This passage too is referring to Israel. It's speaking of past events. It's not saying people are saved.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Brother, he was clearly intending to reference Ephesians chapter 1 and also chapter 5. They're all about redemption and being saved.
Butch5
Member
Because of the colon it appeared to me to be referencing Epheasian 1:5. But the question was, 'where does it say God chooses who will be saved?' That they may be about redemption doesn't necessitate that God is choosing. Without commentary I can only guess how Who Me understands those passages.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Amen to that!
Jesus was sent as a final revelation.
But not all can know about Him.
However, God can be grasped through His creation and many know God without ever having heard the gospel.
God will judge us on the light we've received.
The N.T. teaches that Jesus died for ALL humanity....past, present and future.
It's in this way that you've pointed out that He died for everyone...
It's through HIM that we are saved, whether we know this or not..it is still His atoning sacrifice through His Priestly office that saves.
Will be looking for the debate - I like Wm. L. Craig too.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Let's have a serious convo....
Where in Romans 8:28-30 does it state that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost?