Some Won't Get Saved

[GodsGrace]

Brother, he was clearly intending to reference Ephesians chapter 1 and also chapter 5. They're all about redemption and being saved.

Hmmmm.
Maybe not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Eph 1:+5

Ditto.

Could you post the verse(s).
Then show where in that verse or verses it states that God chose WHO will be saved or lost.

 

[OzSpen]

Amen to that!

Jesus was sent as a final revelation.
But not all can know about Him.
However, God can be grasped through His creation and many know God without ever having heard the gospel.
God will judge us on the light we've received.
The N.T. teaches that Jesus died for ALL humanity....past, present and future.
It's in this way that you've pointed out that He died for everyone...
It's through HIM that we are saved, whether we know this or not..it is still His atoning sacrifice through His Priestly office that saves.

Will be looking for the debate - I like Wm. L. Craig too.

wondering,

The Bible tells us what will happen to those who have not heard the direct, verbal proclamation of the Gospel. They will be without excuse (Rom 1:18-30; Rom 2:7).

What have they done with the revelation given to them in conscience and natural revelation?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Let's have a serious convo....
Where in Romans 8:28-30 does it state that God chooses who will be saved and who will be lost?

wondering,

In those verses I can't read anything that sounds like a Calvinistic: (1) You are chosen for salvation, and (2) You are chosen for damnation. Do you know of any other verses that make these 2 points, especially (2)?

Bed is calling me at 8:32pm Tuesday. Hot Milo before bed:



Thanks,
Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Everyone who rejects the idea that it is God who predestins those who will be saved, believes that they are the god like being who determins whether they are saved.
( Being sarcastic about God like being )

To the contrary, Who Me,

Those who reject the idea of God saving and people choosing to reject the light of God in creation (Rom 1:18-30 ESV) and to reject the light of God in conscience (Rom 2:7 ESV) are the ones who will be damned.

Yes, God elects but it is not on the basis of "you are in" and "you are out" by the arbitrary will of God.

Oz

 

[Randy]

Not some, but most won't overcome the world.

Jesus overcame the world as a servant even though the world was made through Him.

The ratio was given by the Lord Himself
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[Walpole]

I don't understand why so many Protestants are obsessed with salvation, constantly seeking assurances and leverage over God.

This implies a complete lack of trust...and faith.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't understand why so many Protestants are obsessed with salvation, constantly seeking assurances and leverage over God.

This implies a complete lack of trust...and faith.

I have a Catholic girlfriend that tells me this.

I believe it's because in Protestant churches there's an emphasis on witnessing and winning people over to Jesus.
It's as if we were all missionaries.
It's as if we all, personally, take the instruction of Jesus to the Apostles in
Matthew 28:19-20
19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Also, in Catholicism the way to salvation is very definite...in Protestantism there are different views as to what saves a person, and so it causes discussion.

 

[Walpole]

I have a Catholic girlfriend that tells me this.

I believe it's because in Protestant churches there's an emphasis on witnessing and winning people over to Jesus.
It's as if we were all missionaries.
It's as if we all, personally, take the instruction of Jesus to the Apostles in
Matthew 28:19-20
19“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Also, in Catholicism the way to salvation is very definite...in Protestantism there are different views as to what saves a person, and so it causes discussion.

Constantly wanting reassurances and obsessing over salvation seems to me to be a sign of a lack of faith. The focus shifts from loving God and neighbor to loving one's self so much they seek assurances and leverage over God for their salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

Constantly wanting reassurances and obsessing over salvation seems to me to be a sign of a lack of faith. The focus shifts from loving God and neighbor to loving one's self so much they seek assurances and leverage over God for their salvation.

I don't believe seeking assurance is the cause of discussions re salvation.

In fact, I'd say that some are overly assured of their salvation and have a false sense of security.

I've posted with persons that believe they can live a life of sin and still be assured of salvation because they "accepted Jesus" at some point in their lives.

This would fall into the category of once saved, always saved.

I also know that some worry about not really being saved, but I find these to be very few
And usually persons with an obsessive compulsive disorder.

 

[Edward]

Ditto.

Could you post the verse(s).
Then show where in that verse or verses it states that God chose WHO will be saved or lost.

It's in John 15, Sister. It doesn't say it like is being put forth in this thread, but it does say that He chose us we didn't choose Him. But this in no way means that we don't have free will because the same chapter says we must abide in Him, and to abide in Him we must keep His commandments... and that IF we abide in Him and His Love then we can ask for anything we want and we will get it.

These ones trying to dodge personal accountability and deny free will are being short sighted and obviously do not read their Bibles as much as they should. If we have no choice at all and it is up to God to save who He will, so no matter what, they will still go to heaven...that's absurd and certainly that would be too easy, don't you think? If that were true, then it would nullify the scripture what says, straight is the way and narrow is the gate into heaven!

The whole chapter of John 15 relates to these issues, so I didn't just post a verse or two which says He chose us. Read the whole chapter!

 

[Edward]

Constantly wanting reassurances and obsessing over salvation seems to me to be a sign of a lack of faith. The focus shifts from loving God and neighbor to loving one's self so much they seek assurances and leverage over God for their salvation.

It is not a lack of faith Brother. It can't be because it says He gave to all the measure of faith. Or are the scriptures wrong? (Lol).

So what is it then? That's a good question Brother, I'm glad you asked it...!
It's a belief problem. Lord help our unbelief. Belief is different than faith. So what you wrote is a rationalization. Prolly based on two things. One, your (subconscious?) favorite sins of the world that you like and don't want to give up. Two, If you were to study belief as a word study, you would find out that in the original language, belief implies an action and more than merely thinking about it.

You see, all of the things of the Kingdom of God are not able to be seen by us in this natural realm we live in. It can be hard to act on things you can't see, but all of the things of the world are easily seen by us so that makes it easy to act on them.

But what about we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling? (Look it up)
What about we are to pray to be overcomers? (Look it up)
What about IF we are to abide in Him to be in His Love? (John 15)

You have more studying to do Brother. But it's good that you seek validation so ask these questions because now the truth can be established. But don't take my word for these things, go and search the scriptures daily to see if these things are so. (In that way, you study to show thyself approved!)

 

[JLB]

It's in John 15, Sister. It doesn't say it like is being put forth in this thread, but it does say that He chose us we didn't choose Him. But this in no way means that we don't have free will because the same chapter says we must abide in Him, and to abide in Him we must keep His commandments... and that IF we abide in Him and His Love then we can ask for anything we want and we will get it.

These ones trying to dodge personal accountability and deny free will are being short sighted and obviously do not read their Bibles as much as they should. If we have no choice at all and it is up to God to save who He will, so no matter what, they will still go to heaven...that's absurd and certainly that would be too easy, don't you think? If that were true, then it would nullify the scripture what says, straight is the way and narrow is the gate into heaven!

The whole chapter of John 15 relates to these issues, so I didn't just post a verse or two which says He chose us. Read the whole chapter!

Amen.


One thing I see in John 15, which some like to take out of context, is Jesus is speaking to His disciples, whom were chosen for a purpose, and appointed to be Apostles and to carry on His Gospel, and His teachings to those that would become their disciples.

Words of Christ in red:


No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:15-16


IOW, He chose them for purpose, not “chose them for salvation” while rejecting others for salvation, (as some like to claim).


Should we apply His teachings to our lives, of course, but in that moment and context, His “choosing” was related to their purpose and destiny: their appointment as Apostles.






JLB

 

[Edward]

Exactly. I agree. I knew someone would bring that up. Nevertheless, is this not speaking to you & me also? Everyone inasmuch as a protocol of sorts to shine light upon the path ahead for us. We too, can be disciples.

There's servants of God, Friends of God, Sons of God, and the Bride of Christ. If we remain in obedience and abide in Him..this is us too Brother. Right or no? :wink

 

[Edward]

Scripture says if we draw close to God, then God will draw nearer to us. So there are advancements, promotions. Build up your treasures in Heaven. Some Christians barely get their feet wet in the Lord, others are swimming in the Spirit of God over their heads. The more you press in, the more we are rewarded.

Rewards are not the goal, ok? But He said Build up your treasures, be fruitful for the Lord. We can't forget the parable of the unprofitable servant, who buried his talent in the ground.
I don't want to be the plumber again! (so to speak).

 

[Randy]

Amen.


One thing I see in John 15, which some like to take out of context, is Jesus is speaking to His disciples, whom were chosen for a purpose, and appointed to be Apostles and to carry on His Gospel, and His teachings to those that would become their disciples.

Words of Christ in red:


No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. John 15:15-16


IOW, He chose them for purpose, not “chose them for salvation” while rejecting others for salvation, (as some like to claim).


Should we apply His teachings to our lives, of course, but in that moment and context, His “choosing” was related to their purpose and destiny: their appointment as Apostles.






JLB

No one comes to Jesus unless the Father enables them. While Jesus did choose the Apostles including Paul it is the Father who has given us to Jesus.

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am NOT praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me

Born of God - chosen
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

So what does this all mean?

It means all will be taught by God. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus.
.. no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus words are Spirit and life. Faith comes by hearing those words as the Spirit opens up the hearts of mankind to believe in one they neither see nor hear. But as Jesus stated to His disciples they believe in the Spirit for He was with them and would be in them. But the world could not accept the Spirit for it neither sees Him nor knows Him.

For apart from the Fathers grace and mercy via His Spirit no one comes to Christ Jesus as one who believes in Him with certainty. And those who really are Jesus's disciples will know the truth and the truth will set them free.

 

[Butch5]

No one comes to Jesus unless the Father enables them. While Jesus did choose the Apostles including Paul it is the Father who has given us to Jesus.

“I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am NOT praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me

Born of God - chosen
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God

So what does this all mean?

It means all will be taught by God. Those who listen and learn from the Father go to Jesus.
.. no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Jesus words are Spirit and life. Faith comes by hearing those words as the Spirit opens up the hearts of mankind to believe in one they neither see nor hear. But as Jesus stated to His disciples they believe in the Spirit for He was with them and would be in them. But the world could not accept the Spirit for it neither sees Him nor knows Him.

For apart from the Fathers grace and mercy via His Spirit no one comes to Christ Jesus as one who believes in Him with certainty. And those who really are Jesus's disciples will know the truth and the truth will set them free.

Notice that all the Father has given Him is past tense. Jesus didn't say all the Father will give Me. The drawing of the Father was specific to Jesus' ministry. Jesus said if He is lifted up He will draw "all" to Him. Thus all are drawn. We see this also in John 1 where John says that Jesus came that all through Him might believe.

 

[JLB]

No one comes to Jesus unless the Father enables them. While Jesus did choose the Apostles including Paul it is the Father who has given us to Jesus.

Do you see “coming to Jesus”, because we are drawn, as being the same as being saved?





JLB

 

[Edward]

Notice that all the Father has given Him is past tense. Jesus didn't say all the Father will give Me.

That's exactly right Brother. And when Jesus said on the cross, it is finished...He meant it. Every Blessing for every man who ever lives here on earth and all who will, is already finished and in place. Your Provision for everything you would ever need, has already been given. It is finished...

God waits on us now. To receive it in faith and believing that you already got it. So boldly approach the throne and receive them. It begins with redemption, but now there is a big mountain to climb. The mountain of God.

 

[Dykstra]

A repost from another thread —


This had nothing to do with salvation, but had to do with God choosing Jacob over Esau for His purpose; the purpose being the lineage of people through whom the Messiah would come.


For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.
But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac, (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.” Romans 9:3-13

• that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

What purpose ?

• of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came

Election has to do with God choosing some over others for His purpose, not choosing some over others for salvation; Jacob was better suited for God’s purpose.





JLB

No one can come to the Father unless the Son Yeshua draws them and I think it is mans desperation that asks this question. God on the other hand has it all under control and all things work as he has designed it to.
Eventually through the purifying of the lake of fire all men will enter Gods kingdom the new earth. The Gospel is clear as from when it was first proclaimed in Genesis 3:24