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Those who have died, their dead bodies are in the grave while their spirits are in heaven.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Soul sleep false?
- Thread starter DRS81
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Those who have died, their dead bodies are in the grave while their spirits are in heaven.
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- #223
First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.
Gen 1:14 Then God said, “Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night.” The first heaven consists of the clouds and the atmosphere, the heavens above us, until we come to the stars.
Psalms 78:23 “Yet He had commanded the clouds above, and opened the doors of heaven, had rained down manna on them to eat, and given them of the bread of heaven.”
The expression doors of heaven or windows of heaven involved the firmament, our atmosphere. Descriptions used of this heaven is from where God would provide food or rain. Genesis 7:11-12: “the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.” Genesis 8:2: “The fountains of the deep and the windows of heaven were also stopped, and the rain from heaven was restrained” Malachi 3:10 Says the LORD of hosts, “If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.” In reference to an abundant harvest of crops.“
(Deuteronomy 11:17 “Then the LORD's anger will burn against you, and he will shut the heavens so that it will not rain and the ground will yield no produce....” Deuteronomy 28:12: “The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.”
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I have not seen in these scriptures where the earth would be considered as the "first heaven".
Does the rain come down from the earth?
Are you suggesting the saints are gathered from the sky above the earth?
Sorry Brother, the scriptures associated with the Coming of the Lord from Heaven, is a reference to the Heaven where God is seated upon His Throne, and Jesus is seated at His right Hand.
The bible teaches us that God will bring with Him, those who have died and are present with Him in Heaven, and whose bodies are buried in the earth.
Zechariah 14, 1 Thessalonians 4:14, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Revelation 19 all refer to the saints coming with Jesus from Heaven to Earth at The Second coming of the Lord.
JLB
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42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Corinthians 15:42-49
We are heavenly beings with an earthly body.
That earthly body will be changed to the same spiritual body that the Lord Jesus has.
Jesus had an earthly body, we have an earthly body.
Jesus earthly body was changed to a spiritual body that allows Him to dwell in Heaven and on earth.
Likewise we shall receive a spiritual body as well.
as it is written -
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2
JLB
We are heavenly beings with an earthly body.
That earthly body will be changed to the same spiritual body that the Lord Jesus has.
Jesus had an earthly body, we have an earthly body.
Jesus earthly body was changed to a spiritual body that allows Him to dwell in Heaven and on earth.
Likewise we shall receive a spiritual body as well.
as it is written -
Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 1 John 3:2
JLB
Butch5
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What makes you believe these saints are people? The angels are holy ones.
KJV Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them. {a fiery...: Heb. a fire of law}
LXE Deuteronomy 33:2 And he said, The Lord is come from Sina, and has appeared from Seir to us, and has hasted out of the mount of Pharan, with the ten thousands of <1> Cades; on his right hand were his angels with him.
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JLB Let's focus on something else here for a second. How would you interpret these scriptures..
John 3:13/Third Heaven - No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
1 Kings 8:27/Third Heaven - But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.
2 Cor 12:2/Third Heaven - I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.
John 3:13/Third Heaven - No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
1 Kings 8:27/Third Heaven - But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you.
2 Cor 12:2/Third Heaven - I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.
A
agua.
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Interesting Butch I hadn't considered this before. So much to research/learn so little time :D
Butch5
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Hi Agua,
it is. I think that's one reason we need to keep looking at what we believe. Little things like this can make a difference.
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48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly.
1 Corinthians 15:49
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16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, Romans 8:16
My spirit has a conscience awareness that I am a child of God.
My breath stinks when I eat Mexican food.
JLB
Butch5
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That passage in context is not speaking of two different bodies but rather two different states of the body, one corruptible and the other incorruptible. Resurrection requires that one have the same body, thus Paul is explaining the two different states of the body before and after the Resurrection.
jeff77
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Our bodies may be in the grave but the spirit that God gave us returns to God. God is in the 3rd heaven right? Eccl. 12:7, "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."
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- #235
JLB, your spirit has a conscience awareness because you're alive right now, I'm talking about after you die. (Breath) doesn't have a conscience after you die. You need a brain and a heart to have a conscience awareness. Your brain and heart are still inside your body after you die, and your body is in the grave. THE GRAVE. And the breath that was given to you goes back to its owner, which is God.
Correct, but you're missing a vital point. Your spirit inside of you is (breath), not ghostly figures walking around. Read above post to JLB.
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Your spirit is what the Holy Spirit bears witness with, not your brain.
Your soul, with its mind continues to exist and express memories and concern even after the body is buried in the grave.
Jesus taught this clearly.
I have given these scriptures over and over to you, yet you keep asking the same questions and I give the same scriptures.
Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:1-3
Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Do you believe that Moses appeared to Jesus and talked with Him after His body died and was buried?
JLB
jeff77
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I'm not exactly sure what your saying? I understand that our spirit that God gave us is called God's breath and it returns to God when we die. It kind of sounds like your saying the actual oxygen that we breath is our spirit? I don't think the God's breath is oxygen we breath.
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- #239
(From DRS81 - You need a brain and a heart to have a conscience awareness). Because in Gen 2:7 it says our spirit is the breath of life given to us from God, the breath of (life). The opposite of life is death. The reason you're alive is because your heart is still beating, which is moving blood to your brain which gives you conscience awareness. If you're dead than how can you be aware of anything. Dead is dead. Gen 2:7 & Eccl 9:5.
The transfiguration in Matt 17:1-13 is a vision of what is to come.
It's describing the rapture and the first resurrection.
A vision is described as (that which will or may come to be), (anticipation)..
vi·sion - noun
1. the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight.
2. the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: prophetic vision; the vision of an entrepreneur.
3. an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination ( def 1 ) .
4. something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message.
5. a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory.
Transfiguration and transformation both come from the Greek verb metamorphoo, meaning “to change into another form.”
While the transfiguration doesn’t directly give us information on the state of the dead, it retains theological significance nonetheless. When Peter recounted his experience in 2 Peter 1:16–18, he writes that he witnessed Christ’s coming at that time. In other words, he understood the experience to represent the return of Jesus Christ. Moses and Elijah represent the two classes of God’s people who will be present at that miraculous event: Moses represents the “dead in Christ” who rise to new life, and Elijah represents “those who are alive and remain” who will be translated to heaven and eternal life without ever experiencing death in the first place (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Understanding that the transfiguration is a representation of the second coming of Christ also helps us understand Christ’s promise that “some standing here … shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God,” spoken a few days before the transfiguration (Luke 9:27).
When we understand the profound significance of this event in light of what Moses and Elijah represent, we can gain an understanding of the nature of death as a result. There would be no need of a bodily resurrection if everyone immediately went to heaven to live in Christ’s presence at death; similarly, translation to heaven would have no special significance because everyone would go to heaven immediately upon death. Moses and Elijah act as evidence that death brings a sleep of unconsciousness while the sleeping saints await the return of Jesus Christ.
Moses upon the mount of transfiguration was a witness to Christ’s victory over sin and death. He represented those who shall come forth from the grave at the resurrection of the just. Elijah, who had been translated to heaven without seeing death, represented those who will be living upon the earth at Christ’s second coming, and who will be “changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet;” when “this mortal must put on immortality,” and “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. Jesus was clothed with the light of heaven, as He will appear when He shall come “the second time without sin unto salvation.” For He will come “in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” Hebrews 9:28, KJV; Mark 8:38. The Saviour’s promise to the disciples was now fulfilled. Upon the mount the future kingdom of glory was represented in miniature—Christ the King, Moses a representative of the risen saints, and Elijah of the translated ones.
Hi Jeff. You had contradicted yourself here..
In (1) you agree that the spirit God gave us is called "God's breath"..and then..
In (2) you disagree that God's breath is the air we breathe. You agreed and then you disagreed.
If our spirit is God's breath and from God, then why wouldn't the air we breathe also be from God if God is the origin of life? - DRS81
breath - noun
1. the air inhaled and exhaled in respiration.
2. respiration, especially as necessary to life.
3. life; vitality.
4. the ability to breathe easily and normally: She stopped to regain her breath.
5. time to breathe; pause or respite: Give him a little breath.
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Because in Gen 2:7 it says our spirit is the breath of life given to us from God...
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7
Man was transformed from dust into a living being because of the breath of life.
Not because he has a brain!
The spirit of man lives on after the body is dead.
1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." Matthew 17:1-3
Moses and Elijah were plainly seen by Peter.
Moses and Elijah were talking with Jesus.
Moses body had died, yet he was recorded as talking with Jesus and fully recognized by Peter, even though Peter had never seen Moses
These two were clearly alive and conscience and had the ability to talk.
This is also what Jesus taught us in Luke 16 -
22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Luke 16:22-28
The rich man also died and was buried.
The rich man's body was dead, yet he could recognize Abraham who he had never met.
The rich man died and was buried, yet he could see and communicate with Abraham.
The rich man had died and was buried, and yet he had concern about his five brothers.
The rich man had died and was buried, yet he had conscience awareness and could experience torment in fire.
It is the soul/spirit [inner man; Ephesians 3:16] that lives on after the body is dead.
The saints return with Jesus from Heaven to earth at His Coming to Gather His people at the resurrection/rapture.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31
The same heaven from where Jesus comes from is the same heaven from where the elect are gathered from!
The saints come with Jesus from Heaven to earth where they have gone when they are absent from their bodies.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven , even so God will bring with Him...
The saints are also shown to come with Jesus from Heaven when He returns in Zechariah -
Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.
4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:4-5
Jesus returns from Heaven with His armies -
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
The armies IN HEAVEN!
IN HEAVEN!
The armies in Heaven will come with Him!
They are in heaven!
These are the ones who have been given fine linen!
And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.
The saints are in Heaven.
The saints who have died and there bodies are asleep in the grave will come with Jesus from heaven to earth, just as Zechariah 14, and Matthew 24, and 1 Thessalonians 4 and Mark 13, and Revelation 19, ALL TEACH US!
Those saint who have died, have left their dead bodies and are present with the Lord.
We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
JLB
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