Soul sleep false?

[jeff77]

(From DRS81 - You need a brain and a heart to have a conscience awareness). Because in Gen 2:7 it says our spirit is the breath of life given to us from God, the breath of (life). The opposite of life is death. The reason you're alive is because your heart is still beating, which is moving blood to your brain which gives you conscience awareness. If you're dead than how can you be aware of anything. Dead is dead. Gen 2:7 & Eccl 9:5.



The transfiguration in Matt 17:1-13 is a vision of what is to come.
It's describing the rapture and the first resurrection.
A vision is described as (that which will or may come to be), (anticipation)..

vi·sion - noun
1. the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight.
2. the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: prophetic vision; the vision of an entrepreneur.
3. an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination ( def 1 ) .
4. something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message.
5. a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory.

Transfiguration and transformation both come from the Greek verb metamorphoo, meaning “to change into another form.”

While the transfiguration doesn’t directly give us information on the state of the dead, it retains theological significance nonetheless. When Peter recounted his experience in 2 Peter 1:16–18, he writes that he witnessed Christ’s coming at that time. In other words, he understood the experience to represent the return of Jesus Christ. Moses and Elijah represent the two classes of God’s people who will be present at that miraculous event: Moses represents the “dead in Christ” who rise to new life, and Elijah represents “those who are alive and remain” who will be translated to heaven and eternal life without ever experiencing death in the first place (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Understanding that the transfiguration is a representation of the second coming of Christ also helps us understand Christ’s promise that “some standing here … shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God,” spoken a few days before the transfiguration (Luke 9:27).

When we understand the profound significance of this event in light of what Moses and Elijah represent, we can gain an understanding of the nature of death as a result. There would be no need of a bodily resurrection if everyone immediately went to heaven to live in Christ’s presence at death; similarly, translation to heaven would have no special significance because everyone would go to heaven immediately upon death. Moses and Elijah act as evidence that death brings a sleep of unconsciousness while the sleeping saints await the return of Jesus Christ.

Moses upon the mount of transfiguration was a witness to Christ’s victory over sin and death. He represented those who shall come forth from the grave at the resurrection of the just. Elijah, who had been translated to heaven without seeing death, represented those who will be living upon the earth at Christ’s second coming, and who will be “changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet;” when “this mortal must put on immortality,” and “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. Jesus was clothed with the light of heaven, as He will appear when He shall come “the second time without sin unto salvation.” For He will come “in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” Hebrews 9:28, KJV; Mark 8:38. The Saviour’s promise to the disciples was now fulfilled. Upon the mount the future kingdom of glory was represented in miniature—Christ the King, Moses a representative of the risen saints, and Elijah of the translated ones.



Hi Jeff. You had contradicted yourself here..

In (1) you agree that the spirit God gave us is called "God's breath"..and then..
In (2) you disagree that God's breath is the air we breathe. You agreed and then you disagreed.

If our spirit is God's breath and from God, then why wouldn't the air we breathe also be from God if God is the origin of life? - DRS81

breath - noun
1. the air inhaled and exhaled in respiration.
2. respiration, especially as necessary to life.
3. life; vitality.
4. the ability to breathe easily and normally: She stopped to regain her breath.
5. time to breathe; pause or respite: Give him a little breath.

I can't say for sure. I didn't mean to contradict myself. I don't believe that the spirit that God gave us is the same thing as the air we breath. This is in Genesis and since we were created after the animals it seems like God would have already created the air we breath, cause the animals would need it to survive. I will have to do some research but perhaps the word spirit is not the best word to describe the part of us that goes to heaven. I know there are several Greek and Hebrew words used to describe it. Whatever "It" is, is not that important IMO. What's important is that we will be in heaven after we die. Heaven could very well mean the new heaven that is actually right here on earth.

 

[Edward]

Boy, do we have some smart folks on this board! Even doctors and scientists will not state that consciousness is in the brain. That the brain has something to do with it as a function, but not that it originates there. They continue to search for the source of consciousness.

So scientists aren't enough, the Word God isn't enough...what about all the folks who have NDE's? Do they all lie?
A near death experience is when a body clinically dies, and then life returns to it later, and the people describe coming out of the body and seeing things, hearing things, and going places.

There's way too much evidence and testimony to be able to conclusively say that consciousness is absolutely in the brain alone! :nod

 

[JLB]

Boy, do we have some smart folks on this board! Even doctors and scientists will not state that consciousness is in the brain. That the brain has something to do with it as a function, but not that it originates there. They continue to search for the source of consciousness.

So scientists aren't enough, the Word God isn't enough...what about all the folks who have NDE's? Do they all lie?
A near death experience is when a body clinically dies, and then life returns to it later, and the people describe coming out of the body and seeing things, hearing things, and going places.

There's way too much evidence and testimony to be able to conclusively say that consciousness is absolutely in the brain alone! :nod

And EVERYBODY said, AMEN!

 

[Edward]

It people were dead dead when the flesh dies, then there would be no NDE's. :yes

 

[DRS81]

Because in Gen 2:7 it says our spirit is the breath of life given to us from God...

And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. Genesis 2:7

Man was transformed from dust into a living being because of the breath of life.

Not because he has a brain!

The spirit of man lives on after the body is dead.


1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah." Matthew 17:1-3

Moses and Elijah were plainly seen by Peter.

Moses and Elijah were talking with Jesus.

Moses body had died, yet he was recorded as talking with Jesus and fully recognized by Peter, even though Peter had never seen Moses

These two were clearly alive and conscience and had the ability to talk.

This is also what Jesus taught us in Luke 16 -

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.' 27 Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' Luke 16:22-28


The rich man also died and was buried.

The rich man's body was dead, yet he could recognize Abraham who he had never met.

The rich man died and was buried, yet he could see and communicate with Abraham.

The rich man had died and was buried, and yet he had concern about his five brothers.

The rich man had died and was buried, yet he had conscience awareness and could experience torment in fire.

It is the soul/spirit [inner man; Ephesians 3:16] that lives on after the body is dead.


The saints return with Jesus from Heaven to earth at His Coming to Gather His people at the resurrection/rapture.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:30-31

The same heaven from where Jesus comes from is the same heaven from where the elect are gathered from!

The saints come with Jesus from Heaven to earth where they have gone when they are absent from their bodies.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven , even so God will bring with Him...


The saints are also shown to come with Jesus from Heaven when He returns in Zechariah -

Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south. 5 Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee As you fled from the earthquake In the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:4-5

Jesus returns from Heaven with His armies -

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.


And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.

The armies IN HEAVEN!

IN HEAVEN!

The armies in Heaven will come with Him!

They are in heaven!

These are the ones who have been given fine linen!

And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

The saints are in Heaven.

The saints who have died and there bodies are asleep in the grave will come with Jesus from heaven to earth, just as Zechariah 14, and Matthew 24, and 1 Thessalonians 4 and Mark 13, and Revelation 19, ALL TEACH US!

Those saint who have died, have left their dead bodies and are present with the Lord.

We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8


JLB

Nothing's changed here. I'm moving on.

 

[jeff77]

I did some research and there is another possible explanation for Eccl 9:5. The dead not knowing anything doesn't necessarily mean that they are unconscious. It could be talking about knowing nothing, memory forgotten as from the perspective of people that are alive on earth. Anyone heard of this?

 

[Edward]

I did some research and there is another possible explanation for Eccl 9:5. The dead not knowing anything doesn't necessarily mean that they are unconscious. It could be talking about knowing nothing, memory forgotten as from the perspective of people that are alive on earth. Anyone heard of this?

I have a little. It could also be a reference to the flesh alone I think.

There's a lot of subtleties in scripture that has to considered carefully (or faithfully!). Like when Jesus told the man who wanted to go bury his father first, before coming with Him...Let the dead bury the dead. He didn't mean zombies.

We should be very cautious about what we choose to concretely believe after reading something. The flesh mind is feeble indeed. The very fact that scripture instructs us to lean not upon our own understanding, is a cautionary flag to us to keep an open mind (heart) and be open to the possibilities of something being different than what we (think) we realize.

Just like in mathematics, a simple misplaced decimal point, a small thing...can throw the entire equation off. Same thing. We must keep in mind that we have been lied to our entire lives about everything. We don't know jack. Deception is the enemies primary weapon against us. If you're plotting a course for yourself, and in mapping it, you are off by a nth degree at the beginning...you may find yourself thousands of miles off course down the road. So be careful, and consider that you may be wrong, it happens. The ability to set aside what one thinks they know, and to take a good honest look at another view is a priceless skill. No pride...just truth.

 

[WIP]

(From DRS81 - You need a brain and a heart to have a conscience awareness). Because in Gen 2:7 it says our spirit is the breath of life given to us from God, the breath of (life). The opposite of life is death. The reason you're alive is because your heart is still beating, which is moving blood to your brain which gives you conscience awareness. If you're dead than how can you be aware of anything. Dead is dead. Gen 2:7 & Eccl 9:5.

The scripture you quoted, Gen 2:7, says man became a living soul, not a living body. If we have no conscious awareness in our spiritual life then what is there to gain by receiving the gift of eternal life if we aren't aware of its blessing?

 

[jeff77]

I have a little. It could also be a reference to the flesh alone I think.

There's a lot of subtleties in scripture that has to considered carefully (or faithfully!). Like when Jesus told the man who wanted to go bury his father first, before coming with Him...Let the dead bury the dead. He didn't mean zombies.

We should be very cautious about what we choose to concretely believe after reading something. The flesh mind is feeble indeed. The very fact that scripture instructs us to lean not upon our own understanding, is a cautionary flag to us to keep an open mind (heart) and be open to the possibilities of something being different than what we (think) we realize.

Just like in mathematics, a simple misplaced decimal point, a small thing...can throw the entire equation off. Same thing. We must keep in mind that we have been lied to our entire lives about everything. We don't know jack. Deception is the enemies primary weapon against us. If you're plotting a course for yourself, and in mapping it, you are off by a nth degree at the beginning...you may find yourself thousands of miles off course down the road. So be careful, and consider that you may be wrong, it happens. The ability to set aside what one thinks they know, and to take a good honest look at another view is a priceless skill. No pride...just truth.

Yeah, it's like setting up dominoes. If one falls to the right or to the left the rest will fall. Unless they are on the end and fall the opposite direction Lol!

 

[Edward]

The scripture you quoted, Gen 2:7, says man became a living soul, not a living body. If we have no conscious awareness in our spiritual life then what is there to gain by receiving the gift of eternal life if we aren't aware of its blessing?

Way to come right to the point there brother.

Yeah, it's like setting up dominoes. If one falls to the right or to the left the rest will fall. Unless they are on the end and fall the opposite direction Lol!

I hear ya brother. The older I get, the less I feel I know. Oh, we sure lost a lot in the fall. We can't even comprehend all of the ramifications of, ye shall surely die...we used to walk with God, daily. What we had in this...this spiritual relationship must have had many many more benefits than we are aware of. Perhaps we could even have been hyper-dimensional at the time? I think it's a good possibility.

 

[DRS81]

The scripture you quoted, Gen 2:7, says man became a living soul, not a living body. If we have no conscious awareness in our spiritual life then what is there to gain by receiving the gift of eternal life if we aren't aware of its blessing?

Hi WIP, blessings. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I do agree with you.

We do have conscious awareness right now because we are alive.

We are aware that we are children of God, born again because we're alive.

 

[DRS81]

Meeting Jesus is going to be the same experience for all dead believers at the first resurrection. It will be as if you never died, because when the dead are in their graves they have no knowledge of time. So when people say our spirits meet Jesus right after death vs our bodies resurrecting at the first resurrection, it's the same experience. It will be right away. The only difference is that the first resurrection is biblical. I completely understand that believers are anxious to meet Jesus, but spirits floating around in the third heaven until the first resurrection is just silly. (1) Our spirit is (the breath of God), not (ghostly figures with arms and legs). (2) John 3:13 plainly states the fact that nobody has ever been in the third heaven. So why insist on holding to that belief when the experience is going to be the same anyways. Jesus works and lives outside of time, and on top of that dead people have no knowledge of time. These facts should bring some clarity to soul sleep in general. Don't you agree guys? - DRS81

 

[jeff77]

Meeting Jesus is going to be the same experience for all dead believers at the first resurrection. It will be as if you never died, because when the dead are in their graves they have no knowledge of time. So when people say our spirits meet Jesus right after death vs our bodies resurrecting at the first resurrection, it's the same experience. It will be right away. The only difference is that the first resurrection is biblical. I completely understand that believers are anxious to meet Jesus, but spirits floating around in the third heaven until the first resurrection is just silly. (1) Our spirit is (the breath of God), not (ghostly figures with arms and legs). (2) John 3:13 plainly states the fact that nobody has ever been in the third heaven. So why insist on holding to that belief when the experience is going to be the same anyways. Jesus works and lives outside of time, and on top of that dead people have no knowledge of time. These facts should bring some clarity to soul sleep in general. Don't you agree guys? - DRS81

Hi DRS81, I may have change my view on soul sleep considering Eccl 9:5 could be talking about the dead knowing nothing as from the perspective of the people that are alive on earth? Especially if you read the verses before and after it.

 

[DRS81]

Hi DRS81, I may have change my view on soul sleep considering Eccl 9:5 could be talking about the dead knowing nothing as from the perspective of the people that are alive on earth? Especially if you read the verses before and after it.

You're right Jeff, these scriptures describe how the dead know nothing as from the perspective of the people that are alive on earth. You are correct, which even confirms that soul sleep is truth once again. This is explaining how dead they really are. The importance of the word (dead) is vital here. Since God breathed life into us, which is our spirit then the opposite of life is death. Our spirit and soul die along with our bodies. Our souls rest in the grave and our spirits go back to God. Our spirits going back to God doesn't mean we are alive with him the moment we die. It simply means he is taking back what is rite-fully his. Our spirit, soul and body will all become alive again at the first resurrection. (Eccl 9:4-6 For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. 6Indeed their love, their hate and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun.)

Also keep in mind that the Bible tells us not to pray or consult to mediums, spiritualists or dead people. For example, some people think their relatives are alive in heaven right now so they talk to them and pray to them for healing. In reality they are simply dead in their graves awaiting judgment like everyone else. The Bible teaches us that the only person we're suppose to pray too is Jesus. Jesus is the intercessor between the Father and humanity, and Jesus is the only person alive right now in the third heaven.

Deuteronomy 18:10-13 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the Lord your God.

Lev 19:31 "'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.

Isa 8:19 When someone tells you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Psalm 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

 

[Edward]

Hey, there's no quote button?

Ah well, onward...

"Quote from DRS81: Our spirit and soul die along with our bodies...."

Huh? This is the first I've heard of this. Could you expound on this a little?

Question; wasn't there a man in scripture who called up another dead believer for some reason or other? I think there was.

What about that? if no one precedes anyone else and we are all dead until the resurrection...how could this be?

I know and agree that no one is to speak to the dead or try to call them up, agreed on that.

 

[JLB]

Meeting Jesus is going to be the same experience for all dead believers at the first resurrection. It will be as if you never died, because when the dead are in their graves they have no knowledge of time. So when people say our spirits meet Jesus right after death vs our bodies resurrecting at the first resurrection, it's the same experience. It will be right away. The only difference is that the first resurrection is biblical. I completely understand that believers are anxious to meet Jesus, but spirits floating around in the third heaven until the first resurrection is just silly. (1) Our spirit is (the breath of God), not (ghostly figures with arms and legs). (2) John 3:13 plainly states the fact that nobody has ever been in the third heaven. So why insist on holding to that belief when the experience is going to be the same anyways. Jesus works and lives outside of time, and on top of that dead people have no knowledge of time. These facts should bring some clarity to soul sleep in general. Don't you agree guys? - DRS81

When a dead body is in the grave they no nothing.

The rich man died and was buried!

His body was in the grave.

The rich man himself saw and recognized both Abraham and Lazarus.

The rich man himself was in torment in the flame of fire, though his body was buried.

This is what Jesus taught.

This is the truth.

 

[DRS81]

"Quote from DRS81: Our spirit and soul die along with our bodies...."

Huh? This is the first I've heard of this. Could you expound on this a little?

Hi Edward. Blessings. Do you agree that the opposite of life is death? Gen 2:7 says God breathed life into us, so when we die we are no longer living. We are dead. The opposite of a living body/living spirit/living soul is a dead body/dead spirit/dead soul... (Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.)

"Question; wasn't there a man in scripture who called up another dead believer for some reason or other? I think there was.

Please confirm with scripture.

When a dead body is in the grave they no nothing.

The rich man died and was buried!

His body was in the grave.

The rich man himself saw and recognized both Abraham and Lazarus.

The rich man himself was in torment in the flame of fire, though his body was buried.

This is what Jesus taught.

This is the truth.

Hi JLB. You seem to be stuck on this parable my friend. I've posted my response to this scripture at least 3 or 4 times. Please read with care..

Luke 16:19-31 Hades - This parable is just that, it's a parable and it is not describing the afterlife between death and the first resurrection as many might see. A parable is a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson. Jesus was rebuking the Jewish leadership and speaking of the kingdom being taken from the Jews. Jesus was drawing on an OT passage that they would be very familiar with. In Deuteronomy there is what is known as the song of Moses. The song of Moses speaks of Israel's rebellion against God, in it we find this passage in which Jesus was referring to..Deuteronomy 32:16-27. The word translated (hell) in this passage is Sheol in Hebrew. The Hebrew and Greek definition of Sheol and Hades is the grave or the abode of the dead, but since Luke 16:23 is the only time Hades is used in the Bible to describe torment it is in fact teaching a moral lesson, and this is the lesson...

God said a fire is kindled in my anger and shall burn to the lowest Sheol. This passage is speaking of Israel's rejection of God, and Jesus is alluding to this, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Deuteronomy 32:22 is a metaphor meaning that there is nowhere they can go to escape God's wrath. In other words it is absolutely certain.

 

[Butch5]

Keep in mind that no one has yet established that man is a spirit

 

[Butch5]

When a dead body is in the grave they no nothing.

The rich man died and was buried!

His body was in the grave.

The rich man himself saw and recognized both Abraham and Lazarus.

The rich man himself was in torment in the flame of fire, though his body was buried.

This is what Jesus taught.

This is the truth.

If his body was in the grave and his "spirit" was somewhere else how did he have a tongue? How did Lazarus have a finger? I also have to wonder, if the rich man is burning in the flames, how is Lazarus dipping his finger in water going to help the rich man? It doesn't seem that a drop or two of water is going to help much is one is burning. One also has to wonder why, If the rich man is being tormented in flames, is he holding a conversation at all? I would think if one was burning up the last thing they'd be concerned about is carrying on a conversation,

 

[DRS81]

Keep in mind that no one has yet established that man is a spirit

lol yeah right. I caught on to that one pretty quick. I knew what you were saying, it just took me a bit of re-arranging my thoughts....

Man (is) a soul that (has) a spirit and body.

(Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)