Soul sleep false?

[Butch5]

lol yeah right. I caught on to that one pretty quick. I knew what you were saying, it just took me a bit of re-arranging my thoughts....

Man (is) a soul that (has) a spirit and body.

(Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.)

agreed!

 

[DRS81]

And EVERYBODY said, AMEN!

If we're not praising the Lord after we die, then what are we doing in our spirits after death.

Psalm 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

 

[JLB]

If we're not praising the Lord after we die, then what are we doing in our spirits after death.

Psalm 115:17 The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence.

A dead body can not speak or praise God, as they know nothing.

 

[DRS81]

A dead body can not speak or praise God, as they know nothing.

But the scripture says the dead, it doesn't say the dead body.

 

[Butch5]

But the scripture says the dead, it doesn't say the dead body.

Yes, it does. The use of the definite article, "the" indicates that the passage is speaking of the dead a s class of people.

 

[jeff77]

I believe that when Soloman says that the dead know nothing in Eccl 9:5 he is not saying that they are unconscious or that there memory has been wiped out. He means that they are no longer able to do anything here on earth. I think he is talking about the importance of doing good while your still alive.

Also if the God's breath = the spirit that he gave us and it is just simply referring to oxygen then how can it die if it says it returns to God? Does it die as soon as it reaches Him? What I am trying to find out is what is the part of us that immaterial? Not necessarily whether "it" sleeps before the resurrection or not. What about our names that are written in the Lamb's Book of Life? It can't just be our first and last name, right? It seems like it would have to be a description about us and I don't think it would be a description about our body. Any thoughts?

 

[Butch5]

I believe that when Soloman says that the dead know nothing in Eccl 9:5 he is not saying that they are unconscious or that there memory has been wiped out. He means that they are no longer able to do anything here on earth. I think he is talking about the importance of doing good while your still alive.

Also if the God's breath = the spirit that he gave us and it is just simply referring to oxygen then how can it die if it says it returns to God? Does it die as soon as it reaches Him? What I am trying to find out is what is the part of us that immaterial? Not necessarily whether "it" sleeps before the resurrection or not. What about our names that are written in the Lamb's Book of Life? It can't just be our first and last name, right? It seems like it would have to be a description about us and I don't think it would be a description about our body. Any thoughts?

I don't think Solomon is saying they're unconscious, I believe he's saying they're dead. The dead have no memory. I don't think that the Breath of Lives is referring to oxygen, but rather to that which gives us life. I don't believe there is a part of us that is immaterial, unless one counts the Breath of Lives but that is not "us" it is God's. Regarding the Book of Life I don't know how God has registered the names only that He has.

 

[JLB]

But the scripture says the dead, it doesn't say the dead body.

Jesus clarified for us exactly what happen when an unrighteousness and righteous person die.

The rich man died and was buried
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Crystal clear.

The rich man's body died and was buried!

The rich man himself, his soul and spirit were in hell and continued to exist.

If you rightly divide what Jesus taught then you will see the truth.

If you don't rightly divide and you lump the spirit soul and body together as being buried and being in the ground and being unconscious then you will continue to reject what Jesus taught us in this story.

24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.


JLB

 

[JLB]

If his body was in the grave and his "spirit" was somewhere else how did he have a tongue? How did Lazarus have a finger? I also have to wonder, if the rich man is burning in the flames, how is Lazarus dipping his finger in water going to help the rich man? It doesn't seem that a drop or two of water is going to help much is one is burning. One also has to wonder why, If the rich man is being tormented in flames, is he holding a conversation at all? I would think if one was burning up the last thing they'd be concerned about is carrying on a conversation,

It doesn't seem...?

That's why we have the scriptures brother to teach us the truth rather than us wondering what seems right.

There is a way that seems right to a man... But!


JLB

 

[Butch5]

Jesus clarified for us exactly what happen when an unrighteousness and righteous person die.

The rich man died and was buried
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Crystal clear.

The rich man's body died and was buried!

The rich man himself, his soul and spirit were in hell and continued to exist.

If you rightly divide what Jesus taught then you will see the truth.

If you don't rightly divide and you lump the spirit soul and body together as being buried and being in the ground and being unconscious then you will continue to reject what Jesus taught us in this story.

24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.


JLB

How is it crystal clear, Jesus didn't say either one was righteous or wicked?

 

[Butch5]

It doesn't seem...?

That's why we have the scriptures brother to teach us the truth rather than us wondering what seems right.

There is a way that seems right to a man... But!


JLB

But this doesn't address the obvious problems I presented.

 

[DRS81]

Also if the God's breath = the spirit that he gave us and it is just simply referring to oxygen then how can it die if it says it returns to God? Does it die as soon as it reaches Him? What I am trying to find out is what is the part of us that immaterial? Not necessarily whether "it" sleeps before the resurrection or not. What about our names that are written in the Lamb's Book of Life? It can't just be our first and last name, right? It seems like it would have to be a description about us and I don't think it would be a description about our body. Any thoughts?

The oxygen in us dies because our hearts stop beating, God's breath gives us life. The opposite of life is death. God is simply taking back what is rite-fully his. It's his breath to begin with. Our oxygen dies as soon as our hearts stop beating, and our (spirits that we lived) goes back to him. And He will judge believers and nonbelievers at the Bema Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne according to what we have done in our bodies. (Believers 2 Cor 5:10) and (Nonbelievers Rev 20:13). Our body, spirit and soul are definitely not immaterial. All three serve a great purpose in God's eternal plan. Born again christian's are who's names are written in the book of life, and if you are written in the book of life then you will be resurrected at the first resurrection and given eternal life. Blessed are you who take part in the first resurrection. Rev 20:4-6.

Jesus clarified for us exactly what happen when an unrighteousness and righteous person die.

The rich man died and was buried
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Crystal clear.

The rich man's body died and was buried!

The rich man himself, his soul and spirit were in hell and continued to exist.

If you rightly divide what Jesus taught then you will see the truth.

If you don't rightly divide and you lump the spirit soul and body together as being buried and being in the ground and being unconscious then you will continue to reject what Jesus taught us in this story.

24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.


JLB

JLB my friend. I'm not sure if you're simply ignoring my posts or you just don't care. Please read post 257 and actually respond to what I'm saying.

 

[DRS81]

It doesn't seem...?

That's why we have the scriptures brother to teach us the truth rather than us wondering what seems right.

There is a way that seems right to a man... But!


JLB

(From Butch5 - If his body was in the grave and his "spirit" was somewhere else how did he have a tongue? How did Lazarus have a finger? I also have to wonder, if the rich man is burning in the flames, how is Lazarus dipping his finger in water going to help the rich man? It doesn't seem that a drop or two of water is going to help much is one is burning. One also has to wonder why, If the rich man is being tormented in flames, is he holding a conversation at all? I would think if one was burning up the last thing they'd be concerned about is carrying on a conversation.)

I agree with Butch here.
He makes some very valid points.
How can one have a tongue and a finger without their bodies present.
A spirit does not have a tongue and a finger, and our bodies are in the grave.

 

[DRS81]

Edward In Luke 16:19-31 don't you find it odd that Hades describes torment only once in the whole entire Bible, and the rest of the time Hades describes the grave. Don't you also find it odd that a person cannot obtain a tongue and a finger without a body present. A spirit does not have a tongue and a finger because our bodies are in the grave. Your thoughts.

 

[JLB]

(From Butch5 - If his body was in the grave and his "spirit" was somewhere else how did he have a tongue? How did Lazarus have a finger? I also have to wonder, if the rich man is burning in the flames, how is Lazarus dipping his finger in water going to help the rich man? It doesn't seem that a drop or two of water is going to help much is one is burning. One also has to wonder why, If the rich man is being tormented in flames, is he holding a conversation at all? I would think if one was burning up the last thing they'd be concerned about is carrying on a conversation.)

I agree with Butch here.
He makes some very valid points.
How can one have a tongue and a finger without their bodies present.
A spirit does not have a tongue and a finger, and our bodies are in the grave.

Do angels have tongues?

Does God have a tongue?

The body with the fleshly members were buried in the grave.

The spirit man with eyes and tongue and all the spiritual faculties and senses were in hell fully conscience.

rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This is what Jesus taught.

This is what I believe.

The rich mans body was buried.

The rich mans spirit/soul was conscious in hell. He could see with spiritual eyes and hear with spiritual ears and speak words.


JLB

 

[JLB]

(From Butch5 - If his body was in the grave and his "spirit" was somewhere else how did he have a tongue? How did Lazarus have a finger? I also have to wonder, if the rich man is burning in the flames, how is Lazarus dipping his finger in water going to help the rich man? It doesn't seem that a drop or two of water is going to help much is one is burning. One also has to wonder why, If the rich man is being tormented in flames, is he holding a conversation at all? I would think if one was burning up the last thing they'd be concerned about is carrying on a conversation.)

I agree with Butch here.
He makes some very valid points.
How can one have a tongue and a finger without their bodies present.
A spirit does not have a tongue and a finger, and our bodies are in the grave.

Their is a spiritual body and there is a natural body.

 

[jeff77]

The oxygen in us dies because our hearts stop beating, God's breath gives us life. The opposite of life is death. God is simply taking back what is rite-fully his. It's his breath to begin with. Our oxygen dies as soon as our hearts stop beating, and our (spirits that we lived) goes back to him. And He will judge believers and nonbelievers at the Bema Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne according to what we have done in our bodies. (Believers 2 Cor 5:10) and (Nonbelievers Rev 20:13). Our body, spirit and soul are definitely not immaterial. All three serve a great purpose in God's eternal plan. Born again christian's are who's names are written in the book of life, and if you are written in the book of life then you will be resurrected at the first resurrection and given eternal life. Blessed are you who take part in the first resurrection. Rev 20:4-6.



JLB my friend. I'm not sure if you're simply ignoring my posts or you just don't care. Please read post 257 and actually respond to what I'm saying.

When I say "immaterial", I mean not of the flesh. Whatever that is called it surely still exist after death. Since the Bible tells us to walk in spirit and not in flesh a lot of people probably call it spirit. You could even think of it as the account of your life and your walk with the Lord that still exist in God's hard drive (brain). It's just been transferred wirelessly.

 

[DRS81]

Do angels have tongues?

You cannot compare the two, angels are not glorified human beings. Matthew 22:30 explains that they do not marry or reproduce like humans, and Hebrews 12:22-23 says that when we get to the heavenly Jerusalem, we will be met by “myriads of angels” and “the spirits of righteous men made perfect”—two separate groups. Angels are a company or association, not a race descended from a common ancestor (Luke 20:34-36). We are called “sons of men,” but angels are never called “sons of angels.” Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).

Since angels are spirits rather than physical beings, they don’t have to be visible at all (Colossians 1:16). Elisha once prayed that his servant would see the armies of angels surrounding the city, and the young man discovered that he had overlooked a lot of invisible beings (2 Kings 6:17). Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14), like the soul of man, but without a physical body.

Does God have a tongue?

God is a (spirit) that (created) the tongue.
Who did he create the tongue for? For human beings and animals.
Where does the tongue exist? In the body.
Where is the body when you die? In the grave.

The spirit man with eyes and tongue and all the spiritual faculties and senses were in hell fully conscience.

rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

This is what Jesus taught.

No this is not what Jesus taught. You're still taking this parable as literal. Do you wanna know what Jesus was actually teaching?

Their is a spiritual body and there is a natural body.

Show me scripture where it says we have a spiritual body the moment we die.

Since the Bible tells us to walk in spirit and not in flesh a lot of people probably call (it) spirit.

Hey Jeff. A lot of people probably call (what) spirit?

Blessings.

 

[JLB]

You cannot compare the two, angels are not glorified human beings. Matthew 22:30 explains that they do not marry or reproduce like humans, and Hebrews 12:22-23 says that when we get to the heavenly Jerusalem, we will be met by “myriads of angels” and “the spirits of righteous men made perfect”—two separate groups. Angels are a company or association, not a race descended from a common ancestor (Luke 20:34-36). We are called “sons of men,” but angels are never called “sons of angels.” Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).

Since angels are spirits rather than physical beings, they don’t have to be visible at all (Colossians 1:16). Elisha once prayed that his servant would see the armies of angels surrounding the city, and the young man discovered that he had overlooked a lot of invisible beings (2 Kings 6:17). Angels are spirits (Hebrews 1:14), like the soul of man, but without a physical body.



God is a (spirit) that (created) the tongue.
Who did he create the tongue for? For human beings and animals.
Where does the tongue exist? In the body.
Where is the body when you die? In the grave.



No this is not what Jesus taught. You're still taking this parable as literal. Do you wanna know what Jesus was actually teaching?



Show me scripture where it says we have a spiritual body the moment we die.



Hey Jeff. A lot of people probably call (what) spirit?

Blessings.

The tongues of men and angels.

Again, there is the natural body and there is a spiritual body.

An angel can speak and communicate even though they don't have a natural body, likewise the spirits of men whose bodies have died also speak and communicate as well as see and hear.


The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


JLB

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward. Blessings. Do you agree that the opposite of life is death? Gen 2:7 says God breathed life into us, so when we die we are no longer living. We are dead. The opposite of a living body/living spirit/living soul is a dead body/dead spirit/dead soul... (Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.)



Please confirm with scripture...

I would agree that, loosely speaking...the opposite of life is death. But when we throw the almighty God into the equation...who can know?

I found the scripture! It was Samuel. Have a look brother.

1 Samuel 28:3-15
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.

4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.

5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.

6 And when Saul enquired of the Lord, the Lord answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.

9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, As the Lord liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.

11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.

12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.

14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.../(KJV)

Eh?