Soul sleep false?

[Doulos Iesou]

One thing I noticed that since the story of Lazarus and the richman has come up so much, is that nobody has mentioned the fact that Lazarus really did die and was really resurrected by Jesus.

Can you please demonstrate to us that they're the same person?

 

[DRS81]

Moses and Elijah were alive and spoke to Jesus during His earthly ministry.

This was not about the future but rather is His day as He walked the earth.

Peter was so moved and affected as to want to build a tabernacle for each.


Samuel came up from the earth and spoke with Saul.

This is what the scriptures teach.

The heart of the earth is where Abraham's bosom was and where Abraham went until Jesus descended down and took captivity captive when He ascended.

Abraham was in Abraham's Bosom before Samuel died.


JLB

Where in Matt 17:1-13 does it say they came down from Abraham's bosom. It says they appeared, appeared from where?

Matt 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

Where in 1 Sam 28:3-24 does it say they came down from Abraham's bosom. An important aspect to note here was that Samuel was DEAD. Was the witch to summon the spirit of Samuel down from heaven? No. Saul knew the state of the dead, that Samuel was dead in the grave. He was actually asking the witch to call Samuel up from the grave, not down from heaven.” (1 Sam 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me.")

One thing I noticed that since the story of Lazarus and the richman has come up so much, is that nobody has mentioned the fact that Lazarus really did die and was really resurrected by Jesus.

That's not the same Lazarus my friend. Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 is a fictional character describing a fictional story to teach a lesson about a non fictional reality of God's wrath.

 

[Kathi]

Can you please demonstrate to us that they're the same person?

Who else in the world would it be? (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah.) :erm

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Edward,

Notice what the woman saw coming up, it was "eloheem", gods. According to the OT and the NT, the gods were demons.

17 They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear. (Deu 32:17 NKJ)

20 Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. (1Co 10:20 NKJ)

Personally, I am not convinced by this argument. Primarily because it relies on the perspective of the medium.

The author of this book however, designates the being as Samuel.

Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” 1 Samuel 28:15 (ESV)

Saul even knew that it was Samuel.

He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. 1 Samuel 28:14 (ESV)

If this isn't evidence enough, what Samuel says makes it quite clear that he is not a demonic being.

And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.” 1 Samuel 28:16-19 (ESV)

Samuel recounts precisely what he predicted would happen on account of Saul's disobedience, and even further, prophecies that Yahweh would give the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines and that Saul and his sons would be dead on the following day.

This came to pass in this verse:

Thus Saul died, and his three sons, and his armor-bearer, and all his men, on the same day together. 1 Samuel 31:6 (ESV)

I don't believe that demons have the power to understand what will happen in the future, nor do they have a connection to God's sovereign plan to understand such. The words spoken by Samuel, are such that you would expect from a prophet of God.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Who else in the world would it be?(Emitted, ToS 2.4. Obadiah.) :erm

In the Parable, Lazarus was a poor homeless man who lived outside of the Rich Man's gate. The Lazarus found in John, Lazarus of Bethany, was not poor or homeless. He had a home, and his sister was even wealthy enough to buy very expensive ointment to anoint Jesus for burial.

Simply because someone shares the same name, does not make them the same person. There are two people in the Gospel named Mary, and two people named Simon, etc. If the descriptions of these individuals do not line up then what other conclusion can we come to, other than the fact that they are not the same person.

(Edited, response to deleted post. Obadiah.)

 

[Kathi]

In the Parable, Lazarus was a poor homeless man who lived outside of the Rich Man's gate. The Lazarus found in John, Lazarus of Bethany, was not poor or homeless. He had a home, and his sister was even wealthy enough to buy very expensive ointment to anoint Jesus for burial.

Simply because someone shares the same name, does not make them the same person. There are two people in the Gospel named Mary, and two people named Simon, etc. If the descriptions of these individuals do not line up then what other conclusion can we come to, other than the fact that they are not the same person.

(Edited and removed, response to deleted post. Obadiah)

That is why (we) need to read Scripture carefully.Yes,Mary was a popular name in the Bible.I guess a person can use that excuse of wanting to believe their view of Scripture by saying it was not the same person.Their are alot of ways to manipulate Scripture and turn the meanings around so it comes out to mean what (a person wants) it to mean but not how it was intended.

(Post edited, ToS 2.4. Obadiah.)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That is why (we) need to read Scripture carefully.

I do read the Scriptures carefully (Edited, response to edited post. Obadiah).

Yes,Mary was a popular name in the Bible.I guess a person can use that excuse of wanting to believe their view of Scripture by saying it was not the same person.Their are alot of ways to manipulate Scripture and turn the meanings around so it comes out to mean what you want it to mean but not how it was intended.

I demonstrated that alluding to the fact that they have the same name does not demonstrate that they are the same person.

Lazarus in the Parable:
1) Poor
2) Homeless

Lazarus of Bethany:
1) Not Poor
2) Had a home

Since these are irreconcilable differences that would contradict each other should it be the same person, I have to therefore conclude that they were different people.

Do you happen to have any evidence that they're the same person? Both of these individuals dying does not reconcile the differences I already noted, and mortality is a characteristic that every single human shares in common.

 

[DRS81]

That is why (we) need to read Scripture carefully.Yes,Mary was a popular name in the Bible.I guess a person can use that excuse of wanting to believe their view of Scripture by saying it was not the same person.Their are alot of ways to manipulate Scripture and turn the meanings around so it comes out to mean what (a person wants) it to mean but not how it was intended.

Hi Kathi. They are definitely not the same person. The two Lazarus are two different people.

 

[Obadiah]

Thread closed until I get home and have time to investigate multiple member complaints. Obadiah.

 

[Obadiah]

Thanks everyone for your patience waiting for me to get home where I could work on this properly. Thread is now open again. Please remember to follow ToS 2.4:

Give other members the respect you would have them give to yourself.
Address issues/ideas, not persons or personalities. Do not insult, publicly post derogatory opinions of others, post insinuation to belittle or discredit, or otherwise create a hostile environment. Present evidence for support or rebuttal during debate. Bashing the author of another view or opinion is not evidence.

 

[Kathi]

Hi Kathi. They are definitely not the same person. The two Lazarus are two different people.

Right one of the Lazarus was the one that Jesus resurrected from the dead.The other Lazarus is the one who is in the Parable of the Rich man.

 

[DRS81]

Right one of the Lazarus was the one that Jesus resurrected from the dead.The other Lazarus is the one who is in the Parable of the Rich man.

Very good.

 

[Butch5]

So when the woman saw a god coming out of the earth, what do you think it was. I can only think of three options. (1) Samuel himself literally resurrected, (2) The body of Samuel resurrected possessed by a demon or (3) Saul's heart was to the point of delusional, believing anything he hears.

HI DRS81,

I'm not sure she saw anything. If it was a demon that was speaking through her the demon could say anything to deceive Saul. If she did see something I believe it was something the demon manifested, I don;t believe it was Samuel.

 

[DRS81]

If she did see something I believe it was something the demon manifested.

Hey Butch. What do you mean here (the demon manifested something). Also keep in mind, whatever it was told the truth about the fate of Saul....

1 Sam 28:16-19 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

 

[Butch5]

Personally, I am not convinced by this argument. Primarily because it relies on the perspective of the medium.

The author of this book however, designates the being as Samuel.

Then Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?” Saul answered, “I am in great distress, for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.” 1 Samuel 28:15 (ESV)

Saul even knew that it was Samuel.

He said to her, “What is his appearance?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.” And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and paid homage. 1 Samuel 28:14 (ESV)

If this isn't evidence enough, what Samuel says makes it quite clear that he is not a demonic being.

And Samuel said, “Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy? The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.” 1 Samuel 28:16-19 (ESV)

Samuel recounts precisely what he predicted would happen on account of Saul's disobedience, and even further, prophecies that Yahweh would give the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines and that Saul and his sons would be dead on the following day.

This came to pass in this verse:

Thus Saul died, and his three sons, and his armor-bearer, and all his men, on the same day together. 1 Samuel 31:6 (ESV)

I don't believe that demons have the power to understand what will happen in the future, nor do they have a connection to God's sovereign plan to understand such. The words spoken by Samuel, are such that you would expect from a prophet of God.

Hi Doulos,

You said you're not convinced by this argument because it's from the perspective of the medium, however, so if the evidence you gave for not believing the argument. Saul said that God would not answer him by dreams or prophets, yet Samuel was a prophet. If God would not answer him by prophets I don't see how Samuel could answer him.

Also, God had forbidden anyone an Israelite who had turned against Him from inquiring of a prophet.

7 "For anyone of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who separates himself from Me and sets up his idols in his heart and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity, then comes to a prophet to inquire of him concerning Me, I the LORD will answer him by Myself.
8 "I will set My face against that man and make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of My people. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.
9 "And if the prophet is induced to speak anything, I the LORD have induced that prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel. (Eze 14:7-9 NKJ)

The woman said she saw "eloheem." Considering the passage from Ezekiel I guess it's possible that God did actually answer Saul Himself. that would explain why the woman screamed and the prophecy. However, I'm not sure that it is prophecy. Samuel had told Saul that God had ripped the kingdom from him before this.

27 And as Samuel turned around to go away, Saul seized the edge of his robe, and it tore.
28 So Samuel said to him, "The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. (1Sa 15:27-28 NKJ)

The only part that is think might be considered prophecy is the giving of Israel into the hands of the Philistines. As for Saul and his sons dying on the same I don't know if that really can be counted since the a demon could be the one who killed Saul and his sons.

Another problem I see with it actually being Samuel is that I don't see why Samuel would obey a demon or a medium. Samuel was a faithful man of God, I don't see why he would come up (if possible) against God's command to participate in something that God flatly forbid.

 

[Butch5]

Hey Butch. What do you mean here (the demon manifested something). Also keep in mind, whatever it was told the truth about the fate of Saul....

1 Sam 28:16-19 Samuel said, “Why do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighbors—to David. 18Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.”

HI DRS 81,

When I said the demon may have manifested something I meant like a vision or something along that line. I'm not sure it was the truth. I don't believe that Saul was killed the next day. If you follow the events it was likely 2 or 3 days later. However the Hebrew word translated "tomorrow" can mean in the future also.

In the post to Doulos I came across something that I had not considered before. God said that when one who had turned from Him inquired of a prophet that God Himself would answer that prophet. The woman said she saw "eloheem" this word is used of both the true God and gods. If it was God who answered it would explain the prophecy.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi Doulos,

You said you're not convinced by this argument because it's from the perspective of the medium, however, so if the evidence you gave for not believing the argument. Saul said that God would not answer him by dreams or prophets, yet Samuel was a prophet. If God would not answer him by prophets I don't see how Samuel could answer him.

This was different, Samuel was speaking from beyond the grave. Not sure this fits neatly into a nice systematic theology.

Also, God had forbidden anyone an Israelite who had turned against Him from inquiring of a prophet.

7 "For anyone of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who dwell in Israel, who separates himself from Me and sets up his idols in his heart and puts before him what causes him to stumble into iniquity, then comes to a prophet to inquire of him concerning Me, I the LORD will answer him by Myself.
8 "I will set My face against that man and make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of My people. Then you shall know that I am the LORD.
9 "And if the prophet is induced to speak anything, I the LORD have induced that prophet, and I will stretch out My hand against him and destroy him from among My people Israel. (Eze 14:7-9 NKJ)

1) This is in Ezekiel, which wasn't spoken until after Saul was dead.
2) Saul died the next day after inquiring a prophet from beyond the grave.

His immanent death after consulting a medium was perhaps a part of his punishment for doing such, and Samuel was relaying God's judgment.

The woman said she saw "eloheem." Considering the passage from Ezekiel I guess it's possible that God did actually answer Saul Himself. that would explain why the woman screamed and the prophecy. However, I'm not sure that it is prophecy. Samuel had told Saul that God had ripped the kingdom from him before this.

It seems more that Samuel is relaying what God already said to him, and then an ominous pronouncement of his impending death.

27 And as Samuel turned around to go away, Saul seized the edge of his robe, and it tore.
28 So Samuel said to him, "The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you today, and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. (1Sa 15:27-28 NKJ)

The only part that is think might be considered prophecy is the giving of Israel into the hands of the Philistines. As for Saul and his sons dying on the same I don't know if that really can be counted since the a demon could be the one who killed Saul and his sons.

This seems to be stretching it a bit, the Philistines killed his sons and Saul killed himself. If the narrator designates this person as Samuel, when it really isn't, is that not very misleading. Especially if this person were actually a demon.

Another problem I see with it actually being Samuel is that I don't see why Samuel would obey a demon or a medium. Samuel was a faithful man of God, I don't see why he would come up (if possible) against God's command to participate in something that God flatly forbid.

Samuel actually seemed confused as to why he was disturbed, as if someone woke him up from a deep sleep.

As Samuel said:

“Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

He didn't know the context or reason for why he was summoned.

 

[DRS81]

HI DRS 81,

When I said the demon may have manifested something I meant like a vision or something along that line. I'm not sure it was the truth. I don't believe that Saul was killed the next day. If you follow the events it was likely 2 or 3 days later. However the Hebrew word translated "tomorrow" can mean in the future also.

That's a good point, as in the demon manifested a vision. If tomorrow can mean future then this demon told the truth regardless, but telling the truth doesn't necessarily mean Saul is going to heaven. The demon mixed lies with truth? One thing that really confuses me here is that I don't know if Saul died a nonbeliever or not. Samuel died a believer, so if Saul died a believer then 1 Sam 28:19 really does speak of Samuel. (1 Sam 28:19 The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.") It's interesting.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

That's a good point, as in the demon manifested a vision. If tomorrow can mean future then this demon told the truth regardless, but telling the truth doesn't necessarily mean Saul is going to heaven. The demon mixed lies with truth? One thing that really confuses me here is that I don't know if Saul died a nonbeliever or not. Samuel died a believer, so if Saul died a believer then 1 Sam 28:19 really does speak of Samuel. (1 Sam 28:19 The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.") It's interesting.

The "will be with me," is a reference to Sheol. The Jews believed that all the dead go to the same place. Christians got this wrong when they misinterpreted the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, where they conceived of some upper and lower Sheol.

There was no activity for the dead in ancient Jewish believe, there was no working or knowledge or wisdom, no consciousness. Notice that Samuel here when summoned, responded as if he had been disturbed from a deep sleep.

Butch's argument is more so for Monism than it is for Soul sleep, the idea that mankind doesn't have a spiritual nature or existence at all beyond the physical.

 

[Kathi]

It looks like both of you guys are really searching for answers.