Soul sleep false?

[Doulos Iesou]

It looks like both of you guys are really searching for answers.

Indeed, and the answers are in the Scriptures, but they are not always easy to extract as we seek to be consistent with all the Scriptures.

It's an enjoyable quest though.

 

[DRS81]

Butch's argument is more so for Monism than it is for Soul sleep, the idea that mankind doesn't have a spiritual nature or existence at all beyond the physical.

I agree with Butch. He's not saying mankind doesn't have a spiritual nature at all after death, no. He's saying our spiritual nature only comes alive again at the first resurrection. 1 Sam 28:3-24 - An important aspect to note here was that Samuel was DEAD. He wasn't in the flame in torture or in Abraham's bosom. Was the witch to summon the spirit of Samuel down from heaven? No. Saul knew the state of the dead, that Samuel was dead in the grave. He was actually asking the witch to call Samuel up from the grave, not down from heaven.” (1 Sam 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me.")

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I agree with Butch. He's not saying mankind doesn't have a spiritual nature at all after death, no. He's saying our spiritual nature only comes alive again at the first resurrection.

I would say that it comes alive after we are united with Christ, we do not receive our glorified resurrected bodies until the first resurrection.

1 Sam 28:3-24 - An important aspect to note here was that Samuel was DEAD. He wasn't in the flame in torture or in Abraham's bosom. Was the witch to summon the spirit of Samuel down from heaven? No. Saul knew the state of the dead, that Samuel was dead in the grave. He was actually asking the witch to call Samuel up from the grave, not down from heaven.” (1 Sam 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me.")

Agreed, I am not stating he was in any of those places. He was dead and buried in the ground, and the medium summoned him from there.

 

[DRS81]

I would say that it comes alive after we are united with Christ, we do not receive our glorified resurrected bodies until the first resurrection.

Technically yes, but I was referring to after we die.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Technically yes, but I was referring to after we die.

Why do you believe Paul thought dying was a gain?

 

[Chopper]

Hey Butch, I haven't been involved in this thread, but I saw the last part of your post # 315 "Another problem I see with it actually being Samuel is that I don't see why Samuel would obey a demon or a medium. Samuel was a faithful man of God, I don't see why he would come up (if possible) against God's command to participate in something that God flatly forbid." This has bothered me as well. I agree with this statement of yours.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hey Butch, I haven't been involved in this thread, but I saw the last part of your post # 315 "Another problem I see with it actually being Samuel is that I don't see why Samuel would obey a demon or a medium. Samuel was a faithful man of God, I don't see why he would come up (if possible) against God's command to participate in something that God flatly forbid." This has bothered me as well. I agree with this statement of yours.

The Bible doesn't go into great detail about the intricacies of necromancy or the like, just that it is an abomination for those living to take part in it. From the text, it doesn't seem that Samuel quite knew why he was disturbed, which to my mind doesn't seem to be that he consented to the summoning.

If you're dead and unconscious and someone summons you, I don't think there is really an opportunity to respond in the negative.

What I find more compelling personally, is that the Narrator always identifies it as being Samuel, and Samuel not only properly recounts the judgement of God but also predict that Saul and his sons would die to the Philistines.

Demons can't do that.

 

[DRS81]

Why do you believe Paul thought dying was a gain?

Because when we (follow) the flesh we die quicker. However, when we (die) to flesh we live through Christ.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Because when we (follow) the flesh we die quicker. However, when we (die) to flesh we live through Christ.

Hmm, that to me doesn't fit too well with the context.

Yes, and I will rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help of the Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again. Philippians 1:18-26 (ESV)

Paul is writing this letter from Prison and is assuring the Philippians that he will not lose heart, but will stand up for the gospel so that Christ will be honored in his body whether it be honored by him continuing to live and striving for the gospel. Or in his martyrdom, where he sacrifices his life for the sake of the gospel. Then he uses the explanatory conjunction of "for" to Paul, to live is Christ, his life is all about knowing, magnifying and proclaiming the name of Christ. Yet, dying to Paul, would be gain.

He goes on to explain. He is torn between continuing to live, or dying. Why? His hearts desire is to depart and be with Christ, which explicitly denotes the fact that he would be with Christ upon dying (departing=dying), but he he knows that right now he must remain in the flesh for the sake of the Church.

To sum up the conclusions we can draw from this.

Dying for Paul = Being with Christ, which is far better.
Continuing to Live = Fruitful labor for the sake of the Church.

I don't see why one would want to argue against the idea that we go to immediately be with Christ upon dying. That is a blessed hope that I think we should all have.

 

[DRS81]

which explicitly denotes the fact that he would be with Christ upon dying (departing=dying)

This is not a sign of an immediate heaven.
This is simply your opinion of the scripture.
Since the dead right now are not aware of time, to them it will be immediate.
Paul fully understood the first resurrection and the politics of it. 1 Cor 15.

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.

 

[JLB]

Hey Butch, I haven't been involved in this thread, but I saw the last part of your post # 315 "Another problem I see with it actually being Samuel is that I don't see why Samuel would obey a demon or a medium. Samuel was a faithful man of God, I don't see why he would come up (if possible) against God's command to participate in something that God flatly forbid." This has bothered me as well. I agree with this statement of yours.

Try to understand it as an authority issue.

Saul was still King of Israel at the moment he consulted this witch to talk to Samuel.

The authority of the King of the Nation that God had raised up and allowed Saul to Govern as His earthly authorized Representative. [Adam missed the mark as well.]

Thank God Jesus didn't!

It is man that God Himself placed to have dominion over the earth.

For good or evil, man is placed in dominion and authority on earth.

Samuel used his authority to call up Samuel and talk to him in his hour of desperation.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Where in Matt 17:1-13 does it say they came down from Abraham's bosom. It says they appeared, appeared from where?

Matt 17:3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

Where in 1 Sam 28:3-24 does it say they came down from Abraham's bosom. An important aspect to note here was that Samuel was DEAD. Was the witch to summon the spirit of Samuel down from heaven? No. Saul knew the state of the dead, that Samuel was dead in the grave. He was actually asking the witch to call Samuel up from the grave, not down from heaven.” (1 Sam 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me.")



That's not the same Lazarus my friend. Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 is a fictional character describing a fictional story to teach a lesson about a non fictional reality of God's wrath.

Where in my post does it say, that I said they came down from Abraham's Bosom?


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Where in my post does it say, that I said they came down from Abraham's Bosom?


JLB

Hi JLB. I don't think you said it anywhere. That's good, so you agree that 1 Sam 28:3-24 is not proof of spirits living in the third heaven?

 

[JLB]

That's a good point, as in the demon manifested a vision. If tomorrow can mean future then this demon told the truth regardless, but telling the truth doesn't necessarily mean Saul is going to heaven. The demon mixed lies with truth? One thing that really confuses me here is that I don't know if Saul died a nonbeliever or not. Samuel died a believer, so if Saul died a believer then 1 Sam 28:19 really does speak of Samuel. (1 Sam 28:19 The LORD will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.") It's interesting.

Here is what the scripture states, and teaches us -

When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!" 1 Samuel 28:12

• the woman saw Samuel...
• the woman cried out at the top of her voice. [this indicates she was startled and surprised at what she saw]
• "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul! [this indicates she immediately knew upon seeing Samuel that King Saul was the one who requested her services]

The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?" The woman said, "I see a spirit coming up out of the ground." 1 Samuel 28:13

• this woman saw the spirit of Samuel.

"What does he look like?" he asked. "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. 1 Samuel 28:14

• An old man wearing a robe is coming up. [The woman describes Samuel, who most likely she had never seen before]
• Then Saul knew it was Samuel...

Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do." 1 Samuel 28:15

• The scripture clearly says - Samuel said to Saul, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up

A person would have to willfully disregard what the scriptures clearly say, in order to claim Samuel was a demon.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB. I don't think you said it anywhere. That's good, so you agree that 1 Sam 28:3-24 is not proof of spirits living in the third heaven?

Not at all.

Samuel came up, not down.

The scriptures teach that Hell and Abraham's Bosom were in the heart of the earth, not the third heaven.

They were separated by a great gulf.

22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said , Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said , Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted , and thou art tormented . 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed : so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot ; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Luke 16:22-26


Jesus descended down in the heart of the earth for three days and nights.


Do you believe this, or do you believe Jesus was asleep?


JLB

 

[DRS81]

The scriptures teach that Hell and Abraham's Bosom were in the heart of the earth, not the third heaven.

I will agree with you that it was Samuel that came up, but where in scripture does it say Abraham's Bosom is in the heart of the earth?? You're really out in right field with this one JLB. What website have you gone too?? Samuel came up from the grave, and of course hell isn't in the third heaven!

 

[JLB]

I will agree with you that it was Samuel that came up, but where in scripture does it say Abraham's Bosom is in the heart of the earth?? You're really out in right field with this one JLB. What website have you gone too?? Samuel came up from the grave!

I don't use websites.

I just read what the Bible teaches.

22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:22-23

Both Abraham's Bosom [Paradise] and hell were in the heart of the earth.

Do you believe hell is up in heaven or in the heart of the earth?


JLB

 

[jeff77]

DRS81 I noticed that you use the term "first resurrection". I didn't know there was more than one. It sounds like your saying there must be a second if you use the term "first resurrection?

 

[DRS81]

I don't use websites.

I just read what the Bible teaches.

22 And it came to pass , that the beggar died , and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died , and was buried ; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luke 16:22-23

Both Abraham's Bosom [Paradise] and hell were in the heart of the earth.

Do you believe hell is up in heaven or in the heart of the earth?


JLB

No it's not in the heart of the earth. Abraham's bosom is a fictional place to describe a fictional story. The purpose of parables is to apply base morals and also to provide an illustration of some aspect of our life in relationship with God. Furthermore, if your tongue and finger are a part of your flesh then how did Lazarus and the rich man obtain these in the spirit realm. You really need to get past this my friend and see the truth of this fictional story.

DRS81 I noticed that you use the term "first resurrection". I didn't know there was more than one. It sounds like your saying there must be a second if you use the term "first resurrection?

Hi Jeff. There is only one (first resurrection). What did I say to make you think otherwise.

 

[Gary]

I don't use websites.

I just read what the Bible teaches.

JLB