Soul sleep false?

[JLB]

No it's not in the heart of the earth. Abraham's bosom is a fictional place to describe a fictional story. The purpose of parables is to apply base morals and also to provide an illustration of some aspect of our life in relationship with God. Furthermore, if your tongue and finger are a part of your flesh then how did Lazarus and the rich man obtain these in the spirit realm. You really need to get past this my friend and see the truth of this fictional story.

How about Hell, is it a fictitious place as well.

Jesus said the rich man was in hell.

Why would Jesus say that Lazarus was in Abraham's Bosom.

Do you think Jesus lied when he told the thief on the cross next to Him that THIS Day you will be with Me in Paradise.

Do you believe that the thief on the cross next to Jesus went to Paradise down in the heart of the earth THAT DAY?

Do you believe that Jesus was asleep in Paradise that Day?

Do you believe the thief was asleep in Paradise on that Day?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Furthermore, if your tongue and finger are a part of your flesh then how did Lazarus and the rich man obtain these in the spirit realm. You really need to get past this my friend and see the truth of this fictional story.

Do you believe Jesus preached to the spirits in prison when He was down in the heart of the earth for three days and nights?

Do you believe that Moses and Elijah spoke to Jesus on the mount of Transfiguration?

And, behold , there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Matthew 17:3


Is it possible that there are some things that happen to us after our body dies, that we just haven't experienced yet, and therefore must rely on the scriptures to teach us.

The scripture says Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and spoke with Him.

You can believe whatever you want to about this scripture, but do you believe what it comes right out and says - And, behold , there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

I do.

I believe Moses and Elijah actually appeared to Jesus and that they spoke with Him.


JLB

 

[jeff77]

No it's not in the heart of the earth. Abraham's bosom is a fictional place to describe a fictional story. The purpose of parables is to apply base morals and also to provide an illustration of some aspect of our life in relationship with God. Furthermore, if your tongue and finger are a part of your flesh then how did Lazarus and the rich man obtain these in the spirit realm. You really need to get past this my friend and see the truth of this fictional story.



Hi Jeff. There is only one (first resurrection). What did I say to make you think otherwise.

When you say "first" in front of resurrection is what I don't understand? Like saying the "first time I woke up this morning" Why the need to say first unless there will be a second? Not that this any big deal unless Im just missing something here.

 

[DRS81]

JLB I recommend that you pray for guidance with these scriptures, because I'm obviously not helping you. I'm sorry I couldn't help you.

When you say "first" in front of resurrection is what I don't understand? Like saying the "first time I woke up this morning" Why the need to say first unless there will be a second? Not that this any big deal unless Im just missing something here.

Yeah I've always wondered that too. I think John was simply trying to emphasize the word 'resurrection' to mean life, eternal life. The term 'resurrection' belongs to Christ, because after all, he is the King of Kings, the Alpha and the Omega. 1 Cor 15:1-11, Romans 10:9, Rev 22:13. Because if you think about it the rest of the dead were not being resurrected to eternal life. They came back to life to be judged and thrown in Gehenna, and Gehenna is death. Instead of saying the second resurrection, he says in v5..(the rest of the dead did not come to life until..). This is describing the second resurrection, in so many words.

Rev 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

 

[jeff77]

JLB I recommend that you pray for guidance with these scriptures, because I'm obviously not helping you. I'm sorry I couldn't help you.



Yeah I've always wondered that too. I think John was simply trying to emphasize the word 'resurrection' to mean life, eternal life. The term 'resurrection' belongs to Christ, because after all, he is the King of Kings, the Alpha and the Omega. 1 Cor 15:1-11, Romans 10:9, Rev 22:13. Because if you think about it the rest of the dead were not being resurrected to eternal life. They came back to life to be judged and thrown in Gehenna, and Gehenna is death. Instead of saying the second resurrection, he says in v5..(the rest of the dead did not come to life until..). This is describing the second resurrection, in so many words.

Rev 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

I get it now. Thanks brother!

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This is not a sign of an immediate heaven.
This is simply your opinion of the scripture.

It's not just my opinion, it is my interpretation based on the Scripture itself. If this is your response then every single discussion on this forum is folly as we are just presenting our opinions about Scripture.

The fact is, we have to make observations, and then provide interpretations that best fit those observations. Your interpretation clearly did not fit the context, which I demonstrated to be about Paul's tension of remaining in the flesh, and departing to be with Christ.

Remove the idea of "heaven," and just think about what it is actually saying. Paul thought dying was gain because when he departed this life, he would go to be with Christ.

That is not only the historical interpretation of the passage, but it is exegetically demonstrable as I just showed.

Since the dead right now are not aware of time, to them it will be immediate.
Paul fully understood the first resurrection and the politics of it. 1 Cor 15.

That would be a possible explanation, but it doesn't reconcile all the texts on the matter.

Jesus statement to the thief that they would be together in Paradise that very day. (Luke 23:43)
The great cloud of witnesses being the OT saints watching our journey of faith. (Hebrews 12:1)
"The assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven" ... "the spirits of the righteous made perfect." (Hebrews 12:23)

Again, I don't see any reason why a person would deny that Christians continue to live on directly after dying. The resurrection is paramount and primary, but to depart from the flesh and be with Christ is a great gain.

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.

Yes, I also embrace and place central (as does the NT) that the resurrection is primary. The intermediate state is hardly mentioned, and God wants us to put our hope in the New Creation, the restoration of all things. Yet, this does not mean that we will be apart from him for all that time.

I believe that Paul is with Christ now, that departing from this world meant deeper union with Christ, and I think he has achieved this.

 

[JLB]

JLB I recommend that you pray for guidance with these scriptures, because I'm obviously not helping you. I'm sorry I couldn't help you.

Could answer these questions so that I could see what you believe?


Do you believe that the thief on the cross next to Jesus went to Paradise down in the heart of the earth THAT DAY?

Do you believe that Jesus was asleep in Paradise that Day?

Do you believe the thief was asleep in Paradise on that Day?


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Could answer these questions so that I could see what you believe?


Do you believe that the thief on the cross next to Jesus went to Paradise down in the heart of the earth THAT DAY?

Don't think there is a paradise in the heart of the earth, I reckon that he was referring to the tomb when he said that. There is a molten core in the center of the earth that gets a little hot sometimes.

Do you believe that Jesus was asleep in Paradise that Day?

Do you believe the thief was asleep in Paradise on that Day?

What do you mean by asleep?

 

[JLB]

Don't think there is a paradise in the heart of the earth, I reckon that he was referring to the tomb when he said that. There is a molten core in the center of the earth that gets a little hot sometimes.


What do you mean by asleep?

Here are the words of Jesus Christ -

Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:42-43

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40


Jesus Christ descended down into the heart of the earth on the day He was crucified.

He told the thief TODAY you will be with Me in paradise!

Jesus was in paradise on the day He was crucified.

Paradise or Abraham's Bosom was in the heart of the earth as was Hades. These were separated by a great gulf.

Do you believe the thief was "asleep" on that day he went to paradise with Jesus?


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Here are the words of Jesus Christ -

Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:42-43

For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40


Jesus Christ descended down into the heart of the earth on the day He was crucified.

He told the thief TODAY you will be with Me in paradise!

Jesus was in paradise on the day He was crucified.

Paradise or Abraham's Bosom was in the heart of the earth as was Hades. These were separated by a great gulf.

Do you believe the thief was "asleep" on that day he went to paradise with Jesus?


JLB

Do you believe that Hades can be empirically verified? If we sent a probe to the center of the earth, would there be people there?

 

[JLB]

Do you believe that Hades can be empirically verified? If we sent a probe to the center of the earth, would there be people there?

Can it be verified empirically verified that the Holy Spirit is in you?

If a doctor sent a probe into your body would he find the Holy Spirit there?

How about answering my post???

JLB

 

[DRS81]

so that I could see what you believe?
Do you believe that the thief
Do you believe that Jesus
Do you believe the thief

I believe that Paul

You guys ever hear that saying, "in order for your outcome to change your belief system would have to change first." Belief/Action/Outcome. (Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.)

The unbeliever believed in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, the action that followed is the Father sending the Holy Spirit to the unbeliever. The outcome is now a saved born again christian, a new creation in Christ. The same applies here. If it's not God changing your heart first then your beliefs are based on carnality, thus resulting in a stale mate.

stale·mate - noun
1. Chess. a position of the pieces in which a player cannot move any piece except the king and cannot move the king without putting it in check.
2. any position or situation in which no action can be taken or progress made; deadlock: Talks between union and management resulted in a stalemate.
verb (used with object), stale·mat·ed, stale·mat·ing.
3. to subject to a stalemate.
4. to bring to a standstill.
verb (used without object), stale·mat·ed, stale·mat·ing.
5. to be or result in a stalemate or standoff: Negotiations stalemated when new salary demands were introduced.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Can it be verified empirically verified that the Holy Spirit is in you?

If a doctor sent a probe into your body would he find the Holy Spirit there?

How about answering my post???

JLB

No, the Holy Spirit is corporeal and ethereal, it is not visible to the naked eye. What you are describing is more so a geographical location, hence my question.

I think the thief was consciously with Jesus on the day of his crucifixion, in a place described as "paradise."

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You guys ever hear that saying, "in order for your outcome to change your belief system would have to change first." Belief/Action/Outcome. (Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.)

The unbeliever believed in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, the action that followed is the Father sending the Holy Spirit to the unbeliever. The outcome is now a saved born again christian, a new creation in Christ. The same applies here. If it's not God changing your heart first then your beliefs are based on carnality, thus resulting in a stale mate.

stale·mate - noun
1. Chess. a position of the pieces in which a player cannot move any piece except the king and cannot move the king without putting it in check.
2. any position or situation in which no action can be taken or progress made; deadlock: Talks between union and management resulted in a stalemate.
verb (used with object), stale·mat·ed, stale·mat·ing.
3. to subject to a stalemate.
4. to bring to a standstill.
verb (used without object), stale·mat·ed, stale·mat·ing.
5. to be or result in a stalemate or standoff: Negotiations stalemated when new salary demands were introduced.

This is an odd statement. I place my belief in God's Word, not on carnality. I do my best to understand it as far as I am able to, just like everyone else here.

Perhaps it is you who needs to change your belief on the matter and that is the reason why we have come to a stalemate. God knows, and I can only offer my opinion on the matter and point you to the Scriptures.

I have done my best to honor all the relevant Scriptures on the subject, and it seems quite clear to me. Having once agreed with you, and then changing my mind, I think I have demonstrated that I am open to different possibilities, so long as it best represents the testimony of Scripture.

It's best to say, "let's agree to disagree," rather than assuming stubbornness on the part of the opposing party to acquiesce to your argument.

 

[jeff77]

You guys ever hear that saying, "in order for your outcome to change your belief system would have to change first." Belief/Action/Outcome. (Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.)

The unbeliever believed in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, the action that followed is the Father sending the Holy Spirit to the unbeliever. The outcome is now a saved born again christian, a new creation in Christ. The same applies here. If it's not God changing your heart first then your beliefs are based on carnality, thus resulting in a stale mate.

stale·mate - noun
1. Chess. a position of the pieces in which a player cannot move any piece except the king and cannot move the king without putting it in check.
2. any position or situation in which no action can be taken or progress made; deadlock: Talks between union and management resulted in a stalemate.
verb (used with object), stale·mat·ed, stale·mat·ing.
3. to subject to a stalemate.
4. to bring to a standstill.
verb (used without object), stale·mat·ed, stale·mat·ing.
5. to be or result in a stalemate or standoff: Negotiations stalemated when new salary demands were introduced.

When I post on this site my goal is not to change anyone else's belief. Only to see what others have to say about I believe and learn from it.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

When I post on this site my goal is not to change anyone else's belief. Only to see what others have to say about I believe and learn from it.

It is very rare to change someone's mind on a forum like this, most of the time it would just be planting seeds and then once the person looks into something a bit more on their own they are then convinced.

I agree, I like to present my own views and strengthen them or clarify them through discussion. It's a good way to learn!

 

[JLB]

No, the Holy Spirit is corporeal and ethereal, it is not visible to the naked eye. What you are describing is more so a geographical location, hence my question.

I think the thief was consciously with Jesus on the day of his crucifixion, in a place described as "paradise."

The rich died and was buried.

This is a reference to his natural body.

The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

After that statement of fact is made by Jesus, He went on to say - And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off...

His body was buried, he himself was in torments in hell.

He himself lifted up his eyes and saw...

This is a reference to his soul that was not in the ground with his body but in hell being in torment.

His soul or spirit man or inner man was in hell.

You could no more send a probe down into hell and see his soul or spirit man anymore than you could send a probe into your body and see the Holy Spirit.

Both are spirit.

Now please answer my question.

The thief that was in paradise with Jesus on the day He was crucified, which is in the heart of the earth, do you believe he was asleep?

Do you believe Jesus was asleep as He descended down into the heart of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison?


JLB

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The rich died and was buried.

This is a reference to his natural body.

The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

After that statement of fact is made by Jesus, He went on to say - And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off...

His body was buried, he himself was in torments in hell.

He himself lifted up his eyes and saw...

This is a reference to his soul that was not in the ground with his body but in hell being in torment.

His soul or spirit man or inner man was in hell.

I strongly disagree that the content of this parable is describing an actual event, and therefore it is not relevant in my eyes to the topic of the discussion.

You know that, and let's just agree to disagree and move on to the next point.

You could no more send a probe down into hell and see his soul or spirit man anymore than you could send a probe into your body and see the Holy Spirit.

Both are spirit.

Does the "heart of the Earth" sound spiritual, or does it sound like a physical location?

Now please answer my question.

The thief that was in paradise with Jesus on the day He was crucified, which is in the heart of the earth, do you believe he was asleep?

I disagree with you on the meaning of the "heart of the Earth," I think this is a reference to the Tomb Jesus was placed in. That Jesus would die and be buried for three days.

I also already answered this question. I believe the Thief was consciously awake with Jesus in a place described as "paradise."

Do you believe Jesus was asleep as He descended down into the heart of the earth and preached to the spirits in prison?

Jesus went to the spirits in prison after the resurrection.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:18-19 (ESV)

He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison after he had been made alive, i.e. Resurrected.

 

[JLB]

I strongly disagree that the content of this parable is describing an actual event, and therefore it is not relevant in my eyes to the topic of the discussion.

You know that, and let's just agree to disagree and move on to the next point.


Does the "heart of the Earth" sound spiritual, or does it sound like a physical location?


I disagree with you on the meaning of the "heart of the Earth," I think this is a reference to the Tomb Jesus was placed in. That Jesus would die and be buried for three days.

I also already answered this question. I believe the Thief was consciously awake with Jesus in a place described as "paradise."


Jesus went to the spirits in prison after the resurrection.

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, 1 Peter 3:18-19 (ESV)

He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison after he had been made alive, i.e. Resurrected.

Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and nights beginning on the day He was crucified.

Jesus was in paradise on the day He was crucified.

Paradise Was in the heart of the earth.

The spirit world is all around us and is unseen.

The Holy Spirit dwells within your body and is unseen.

Does your body seem spiritual?

Hell is in the heart of the earth and is a place where spirits both human and angelic are sentenced to be tormented in fire.

The kingdom of heaven is within you.

Yes the earth is a spiritual place.


JLB

 

[Edward]

What happened to my quote widgit?

"Does the "heart of the Earth" sound spiritual, or does it sound like a physical location?"

Both. The spiritual realm is real and is here.