Soul Sleep yes or no?

[Runningman]

So by this you believe what Jesus really meant to say to the thief was :

" Today you will sleep and take rest with me in Paradise " ?

Better to be sleeping in paradise than in hell. So why not?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Better to be sleeping in paradise than in hell. So why not?

If it is equally debatable one way or the other that "paradise" is Jesus's roundabout way of implying sleep and rest , rather than just using the proper terms of sleep or rest, I was curious as to what you consider to be the purpose of our spirits going to sleep , rather than being present with the Lord ?

 

[tdidymas]

Thank you for not showing contempt prior to investigation. It’s rare today.

13For now I would have lain still and been quiet,
I would have been asleep;
Then I would have been at rest (Job 3)

“And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.” Rev 14:13

The only way someone could experience rest at death is if the spirit lives on in the spirit realm to experience that rest. Nothingness is not rest. Paradise is rest.

 

[Runningman]

If it is equally debatable one way or the other that "paradise" is Jesus's roundabout way of implying sleep and rest , rather than just using the proper terms of sleep or rest, I was curious as to what you consider to be the purpose of our spirits going to sleep , rather than being present with the Lord ?

In the beginning, it also says God rested from His work on the 7th day, the Sabbath. If resting can't be sleep then sleeping on the sabbath would be considered a violation of the sabbath rest. I think we must also allow rest to include, but not be limited to, sleep.

So I don't see that sleeping would infer that someone isn't present with God.

 

[Consecrated Life]

In the beginning, it also says God rested from His work on the 7th day, the Sabbath. If resting can't be sleep then sleeping on the sabbath would be considered a violation of the sabbath rest. I

Resting is not working & Sleeping is not working ???
How do you figure either of , or any combination of the two to be defined as "work" in violation of the Sabbath ?

 

[LeviR]

It's possible. Literal souls were told to "rest a little while longer." Resting can be sleeping and souls were told to rest. It would at minimum seem that souls are most likely capable of sleeping but not necessarily required to.

Revelation 6
9And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

11Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

The souls under the altar were slain(killed) for the word of God and the testimony they had upheld.
I think it could be said that the persons(souls)were killed for the word of God….
If the soul of the believer cannot be killed, why does it say they were slain?

 

[LeviR]

In the beginning, it also says God rested from His work on the 7th day, the Sabbath. If resting can't be sleep then sleeping on the sabbath would be considered a violation of the sabbath rest. I think we must also allow rest to include, but not be limited to, sleep.

So I don't see that sleeping would infer that someone isn't present with God.

Someone who died as a faithful believer could be said to be sleeping in the presence of God, but would be unaware until he woke.

 

[LeviR]

Yep and it may be possible to be a bit of a Bible lawyer and argue that "rest" doesn't necessarily mean sleep, but Matthew 26:45 removes all doubt about that since Jesus said "Sleep on now, and take your rest." In that case, there is a shoe in for soul sleep, but not enough information that this is something all souls do or for how long.

I think a soul(person) who is already condemned to death, and who is never saved from that condemnation, would be condemned eternally, and therefore could not be asleep but dead in the sense to never be awakened. One who is to be awakened from death, could righty be said to sleep in Christ.

 

[reddogs]

So how can Jesus's use of the specific word " paradise " be explained ?
Was Jesus unsure of where they were actually going and just hoping for the best ?
Did Jesus know they were not going to be in paradise , but telling a lie to a dying believer to give him false hope ?
Such a profound and direct statement from Jesus Christ at the very moment of death, of all times, cannot simply be dismissed with a shrug of the shoulders .
How do you reconcile Jesus's very specfic statement ?

" To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

Need to study on it as even the Jews admit its origin and use was picked up and come in from there. "The word "paradise" is probably of Persian origin. It occurs but three times in the Old Testament, namely, in Cant. iv. 13, Eccl. ii. 5, and Neh. ii. 8. In the first of these passages it means "garden"; in the second and third, "park." In the apocalypses and in the Talmud the word is used of the Garden of Eden and its heavenly prototype (comp. references in Weber's "Jüdische Theologie," 2d ed., 1897, pp. 344 et seq.). From this usage it came to denote, as in the New Testament, the abode of the blessed (comp. Luke xxiii. 43; II Cor. xii. 4; Rev. ii. 7)."... https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/11900-paradise

 

[Runningman]

Resting is not working & Sleeping is not working ???
How do you figure either of , or any combination of the two to be defined as "work" in violation of the Sabbath ?

My point is if sleeping isn't rest then what is it?

 

[Runningman]

I think a soul(person) who is already condemned to death, and who is never saved from that condemnation, would be condemned eternally, and therefore could not be asleep but dead in the sense to never be awakened. One who is to be awakened from death, could righty be said to sleep in Christ.

True. It probably applies to both the saved and unsaved according to John 5:28,29 where those who are in their graves hear the voice of God and are resurrected to eternal life or judgment. Also as far as I can tell, there isn't enough explanation about the exceptions to make soul sleep a doctrine. It's like it seems souls can sleep, but then they might not sometimes and how and why does it apply to some, but clearly not all. That's why I don't typically refer to it even though I admit it's still biblically viable.

 

[Consecrated Life]

My point is if sleeping isn't rest then what is it?

I answered Your claim that sleeping could be a violation of the Sabbath if it was not considered rest.

I. If resting can't be sleep then sleeping on the sabbath would be considered a violation of the sabbath rest. I

On what basis would sleep be a sabbath violation I have not a clue ?
You never specified ?
Makes absolutely no sense, unless you claiming that dreaming about gather firewood or plowing a field while sleeping , lol, would qualify as working ?

 

[Consecrated Life]

Runningman,​

Not to mention your non-sensical foundational premise , that the Sabbath Law applies to Christians not only when they are alive but even after death the Sabbath law is a critical concern ?
Really ?

If resting can't be sleep then sleeping on the sabbath would be considered a violation of the sabbath rest. I think we must also allow rest to include, but not be limited to, sleep.

 

[Consecrated Life]

The idea that Jesus Christ, who spoke of praise being perfected even in the mouth of babes:

Mat 21:16
Yea; have ye never read, Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou hast perfected praise?

And also declared that even the stones would cry out in praise at His presence if the people were silent:

Luk 19:40
I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Would have us to be sleeping, silent , mutes when we come into His presence for the very first time is in the top 5 of the most contrary Christian concepts I have ever heard posited .

May all have A God Blessed Easter +

Psalm 22:22
I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.

 

[Runningman]

Runningman,​

Not to mention your non-sensical foundational premise , that the Sabbath Law applies to Christians not only when they are alive but even after death the Sabbath law is a critical concern ?
Really ?

God's laws don't only apply to Christians. They also apply to angels as well.

Sinning is a transgression of God's law.

1 Peter 2
4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

 

[Runningman]

Runningman,​

Not to mention your non-sensical foundational premise , that the Sabbath Law applies to Christians not only when they are alive but even after death the Sabbath law is a critical concern ?
Really ?

Rest is rest .
Sleep is sleep.
Words mean things.
I'm actually at rest right now as I write this and simultaneously call out to my wife in the kitchen asking her "what's for dinner" ?
Multitasking, you can actually cry out for dinner and type stuff while you are at rest.

You've contested that sleep is resting and I am saying that sleep is resting. So what is your point exactly? Do we agree that sleep is resting now?

 

[Consecrated Life]

God's laws don't only apply to Christians. They also apply to angels as well.

Sinning is a transgression of God's law.

1 Peter 2
4For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them deep into hell, placing them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

So you condemn Jesus and His Apostles for not keeping the Sabbath ?
Do you tell Jesus He sinned against the Sabbath in your prayers ?

Mat 12:2
But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

 

[LeviR]

True. It probably applies to both the saved and unsaved according to John 5:28,29 where those who are in their graves hear the voice of God and are resurrected to eternal life or judgment. Also as far as I can tell, there isn't enough explanation about the exceptions to make soul sleep a doctrine. It's like it seems souls can sleep, but then they might not sometimes and how and why does it apply to some, but clearly not all. That's why I don't typically refer to it even though I admit it's still biblically viable.

If the covenant(agreement) made at Sinai were sufficient to grant eternal life there would be no need for another covenant. One that is sufficient to grant eternal life.
When the Jews entered the Sinai covenant they were responsible for keeping their part of it.
The writer of Hebrews explains all of this.
My point is this, only the people who enter covenant with God are responsible for their own part in keeping it. The old was by works of the law, and the new by works of faith.
Anyone outside of those covenants are NOT responsible for anything. They have simply been condemned in Adam and will die to never be heard from again.
Therefore, the resurrection of the just and unjust refers only to those in covenant with God.
Only those in covenant are asleep in the grave. The rest are dead.

 

[Runningman]

So you condemn Jesus and His Apostles for not keeping the Sabbath ?
Do you tell Jesus He sinned against the Sabbath in your prayers ?

Mat 12:2
But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

That isn't what I was talking about and no I don't think Jesus was a sinner.

 

[Runningman]

If the covenant(agreement) made at Sinai were sufficient to grant eternal life there would be no need for another covenant. One that is sufficient to grant eternal life.
When the Jews entered the Sinai covenant they were responsible for keeping their part of it.
The writer of Hebrews explains all of this.
My point is this, only the people who enter covenant with God are responsible for their own part in keeping it. The old was by works of the law, and the new by works of faith.
Anyone outside of those covenants are NOT responsible for anything. They have simply been condemned in Adam and will die to never be heard from again.
Therefore, the resurrection of the just and unjust refers only to those in covenant with God.
Only those in covenant are asleep in the grave. The rest are dead.

That's an interesting perspective. So you're saying that the eternal life that the Bible says those will receive who obey the gospel may not be received in heaven, but rather in hell?