St. Mary . . .

[Not_Now.Soon]

To billybalke and WIP

Both of you guys quoted me when it seems you mean to talk to JosephT. Was that an accident? Or do you mean to just correct me so I don't consider JosephT's doctrine? Kind of a protective thing?

BillyBalke, I don't think of Mary as the "Mother of Heaven." But she is Jesus's mother. JosephT was the one who called her the "Queen of Heaven." I've never been Catholic so all the focus on Mary is something I don't understand. Aside from that though, it's been a long time since I've seen you post, hope you're doing well.

To JosephT

Why do Catholics call Mary the "Ever Virgin Mary?" It's written that she was a virgin when she was pregnant with Jesus, and that Joseph and Mary waited until Jesus was born before they acted on their marriage. But they are married. Why would Mary say a virgin with her husband? I never understood this doctrine or this title. I'm not a Catholic, so it's never been explained to me by a Catholic priest or by some other Catholic writings.

The closest explaination I've heard isn't from a Catholic perspective, but from a secular perspective that was questioning Christianity as a whole. The critism was that Christianity steals from pagan religions that are local and puts them in a Christian context as a means to spread Christianity. The argument was applied to Jesus, the saints revered in Catholic tradations, and the titles of Mary to be idols that were worshiped in pagan and polytheistic religions. Adopting new theology or new titles to bring in a new population.

Though I don't believe this argument towards Jesus, I would still welcome a Catholic perspective on why Mary is called the ever virgin to consider against the secular hypothesis of Christian history and Christianity being spread.

 

[Walpole]

To billybalke and WIP

Both of you guys quoted me when it seems you mean to talk to JosephT. Was that an accident? Or do you mean to just correct me so I don't consider JosephT's doctrine? Kind of a protective thing?

BillyBalke, I don't think of Mary as the "Mother of Heaven." But she is Jesus's mother. JosephT was the one who called her the "Queen of Heaven." I've never been Catholic so all the focus on Mary is something I don't understand. Aside from that though, it's been a long time since I've seen you post, hope you're doing well.

To JosephT

Why do Catholics call Mary the "Ever Virgin Mary?" It's written that she was a virgin when she was pregnant with Jesus, and that Joseph and Mary waited until Jesus was born before they acted on their marriage. But they are married. Why would Mary say a virgin with her husband? I never understood this doctrine or this title. I'm not a Catholic, so it's never been explained to me by a Catholic priest or by some other Catholic writings.

The closest explaination I've heard isn't from a Catholic perspective, but from a secular perspective that was questioning Christianity as a whole. The critism was that Christianity steals from pagan religions that are local and puts them in a Christian context as a means to spread Christianity. The argument was applied to Jesus, the saints revered in Catholic tradations, and the titles of Mary to be idols that were worshiped in pagan religions. Adopting new theology or new titles to bring in a new population.

Though I don't believe this argument towards Jesus, I would still welcome a Catholic perspective on why Mary is called the ever virgin to consider against the secular hypothesis of Christian history and Christianity being spread.

Mary and Joseph were in fact married, but I think most fail to recognize that their marriage was not "normal", since they were in the constant presence of the Most High as the parents of the Incarnate Christ. Thus, their life of continence, like that of their Divine Son, points to a heavenly Kingdom, as opposed to a merely earthly and carnal kingdom.

I also find it paradoxical that Protestants chide Catholics for believing Mary to be an ever-virgin, while they (Protestants) believe she had multiple maternities, despite not one single verse in Scripture testifying to such a belief.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Mary and Joseph were in fact married, but I think most fail to recognize that their marriage was not "normal", since they were in the constant presence of the Most High as the parents of the Incarnate Christ. Thus, their life of continence, like that of their Divine Son, points to a heavenly Kingdom, as opposed to a merely earthly and carnal kingdom.

I also find it paradoxical that Protestants chide Catholics for believing Mary to be an ever-virgin, while they (Protestants) believe she had multiple maternities, despite not one single verse in Scripture testifying to such a belief.

Just looking for an explaination Walpole. Not trying to cause a debate. But from your reply, I guess the explaination is that Mary and Joseph wouldn't have sex because they were in the presence of Jesus. Is that about right?

Honestly, I'm just trying to get a foothold on the doctrine of Mary being an Ever Virgin. Not trying debate it. At least not until I understand it better and give it a chance to be explained.

 

[WIP]

Mary and Joseph were in fact married, but I think most fail to recognize that their marriage was not "normal", since they were in the constant presence of the Most High as the parents of the Incarnate Christ. Thus, their life of continence, like that of their Divine Son, points to a heavenly Kingdom, as opposed to a merely earthly and carnal kingdom.

I also find it paradoxical that Protestants chide Catholics for believing Mary to be an ever-virgin, while they (Protestants) believe she had multiple maternities, despite not one single verse in Scripture testifying to such a belief.

Matthew 1:24-25 (NKJV) seems pretty clear. Joseph did not know Mary (copulate with her) until she had brought forth her firstborn Son (Jesus). It doesn't say that Joseph never ever knew her (copulated) but only that he didn't until after Jesus was born.

Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.


Mark 3:31-32 (NKJV) seems quite clear that Mary had other sons and since Joseph was not Jesus' father, these would have been step sons of Joseph.

Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.”


John 7:1-5 (NKJV) seems quite clear that Jesus had brothers, well, technically half brothers.

After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill Him. Now the Jews’ Feast of Tabernacles was at hand. His brothers therefore said to Him, “Depart from here and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may see the works that You are doing. For no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” For even His brothers did not believe in Him.


John 2:11-12 (NKJV) seems to clearly identify that He had brothers (half brothers).

This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him. After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.


Acs 1:12-14 (NKJV) seems to clearly point to Jesus having brothers (half brothers).

Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey. And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.


In 1 Corinthians 9:3-5 (NKJV) St. Paul mentions Jesus' brothers (half brothers).

My defense to those who examine me is this: Do we have no right to eat and drink? Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?


Paul identifies James as Jesus' brother in Galatians 1:18-19 (NKJV).
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.


Jude 1:1 (NKJV) also then identifies himself as the brother of James pointing to himself being a (half) brother of our Lord.

Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:


I'd also like to mention that I have never heard anyone chide any member of the Roman Catholic church for believing Mary to be ever-virgin. I have heard it mentioned how there is too much in Scripture that refutes this claim.

 

[JosephT]

Hi Joseph,

While I respect your view that St. Mary was ever virgin, I think you will find most Protestants may disagree with you. For those that do, I would ask that you respect their views as well.

I am reading your reply to MarkT and I must have missed something. You spoke about denying St. Mary's role in the birth of our Savior. I didn't catch that in anyone's reply. Can you help me see what you see?


Thanks.

St. Mary herself makes a prophetic prediction in the Magnificat. Reading over it lightly many of us (including myself) tend to see it as a expression of joy; which of course it is but only in part. After the angel’s annunciation of the coming Christ child, Mary says,

"My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. [49] Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever." [Luke 1:46-55].​

Her soul magnifies the Lord, so how? I see Mary as a magnifying glass making it possible to understand and see the christological, and theological aspects of God and Jesus Christ. That is to say just who is it we worship, a mystic or God? How can we have two Persons who are God if there is only one God? How does God become flesh unless He makes the flesh, in doing so he undoes the humanity. Thus, he becomes God/mystic flesh instead of the two natures he had God/man, theandric. In the Apostolic Creed we say God from God true God from true God. Begotten not made born of woman. Mary is the person through whom we look that bring our clouded and bifurcated vision into to see one God, three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

As you might recall we say God is all powerful, present everywhere in every time, and all knowledgeable; omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. God is the very essence of Eternity. Recall too that eternity has neither beginning nor ending, time then is contained within eternity, from the beginning to end of time. All knowledge is contained within Eternity as well.

The son of a human person is the expressed as the image of his father; the child is ‘begotten’ of the father. Jesus Christ is said to be the Son of God, One Divine Person is begotten in Eternity then in the flesh. As God is all knowledge, then the expressed image of all knowledge is Wisdom, not born or begotten rather having existed eternally with an Eternal Knowledge, much the same way when man uses his knowledge it produces wisdom.

Christ did take on the form of humanity as Jesus, in the mysteries of the Incarnation. And, Christ is the expressed image of God in being the Wisdom of God. [Hebrews 1:3] We see it in the Greek, “Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.”(At the beginning of time the Logos already was; and God had the Logos abiding with him, and the Word was God.) [John 1:1], in the same way a man’s wisdom abides in himself. And continuing, in John the Greek: “καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο,” (And the Logos became flesh) [John 1:14]. John says that the ‘Logos’ always existed and was God and furthermore the ‘Logos’ became man. Truth exists, the Incarnation happened. To be absolutely clear, John is not saying God is the audible expression of himself, “rhema”, Greek for the audible word.

Instead let’s look again at the Powerful Eternity (God) the Logos as the Wisdom of God, ever present, all powerful. Divine Wisdom exists with God in all eternity. Christ is not ‘made or created’ by God, rather the Same Substance of God, all of Divine Eternity, the expressed image of God. Solomon described Wisdom as follows:

For in her [Wisdom] is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile. For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she [Wisdom] is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.​

​

For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God' s majesty, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom. [Wisdom 7:22 sqq.]​

In Proverbs we find a description of the coming Anointed One who ‘became’ man. Wisdom herself tells us who the man is through whom all things were made in Proverbs 8:

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning. I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:​

​

He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times [Proverbs 8:22 sqq.]​

The Wisdom of God comes forth from God in the likeness of the intellect that generates Wisdom in God. It is God who in all things expresses the image of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. The expressed image of a human is his son; likewise, "The figure of His substance" is the expressed image of God the Father who is His Son.

But, how is physical substance of the New Adam to be born of woman unless God makes a God within the womb of Mary. A man who is without the stain of original sin born of a woman without being contaminated with the human decease of original sin, lacking the original justice which was once Adam's - and yet remain human? It is done only through Mary, a creature, a creature who is singularly graced, justified, saved by her son before His own conception in the womb of HIs mother, she never to know sin; Ever Virgin spiritually, ever virgin physically.

Mary's response to Gabriel's annunciation was a humble vow of fidelity, consistent with Temple rites of marital vows. Thus, we hold the New Eve God’s bride bore God's eternal son the new Adam in for a sacrificial lamb for the sins of man. After Noah dark seas in Jewish culture represented sin and punishment bore by all men, death. The Immaculate Mary carried Her Son in her body as a vessel across the dark seas of sin to the shores of our redemption. The Ever-Virgin Mary is the Ark of everlasting life, the mother of our Salvation, the mother of the Living Grace and as the Lord’s mother, the Queen of Heaven.

JosephT

 

[JosephT]

Matthew 1:24-25 (NKJV) seems pretty clear. Joseph did not know Mary (copulate with her) until she had brought forth her firstborn Son (Jesus). It doesn't say that Joseph never ever knew her (copulated) but only that he didn't until after Jesus was born.

Then Joseph, being aroused from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord commanded him and took to him his wife, and did not know her till she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name Jesus.


Mark 3:31-32 (NKJV) seems quite clear that Mary had other sons and since Joseph was not Jesus' father, these would have been step sons of Joseph.

Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him. And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him, “Look, Your mother and Your brothers are outside seeking You.”


John 7:1-5 (NKJV) seems quite clear that Jesus had brothers, well, technically half brothers.

After these things Jesus walked in Galilee; for He did not want to walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill Him. Now the Jews’ Feast of Tabernacles was at hand. His brothers therefore said to Him, “Depart from here and go into Judea, that Your disciples also may see the works that You are doing. For no one does anything in secret while he himself seeks to be known openly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” For even His brothers did not believe in Him.


John 2:11-12 (NKJV) seems to clearly identify that He had brothers (half brothers).

This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him. After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.


Acs 1:12-14 (NKJV) seems to clearly point to Jesus having brothers (half brothers).

Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey. And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.


In 1 Corinthians 9:3-5 (NKJV) St. Paul mentions Jesus' brothers (half brothers).

My defense to those who examine me is this: Do we have no right to eat and drink? Do we have no right to take along a believing wife, as do also the other apostles, the brothers of the Lord, and Cephas?


Paul identifies James as Jesus' brother in Galatians 1:18-19 (NKJV).
Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.


Jude 1:1 (NKJV) also then identifies himself as the brother of James pointing to himself being a (half) brother of our Lord.

Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:


I'd also like to mention that I have never heard anyone chide any member of the Roman Catholic church for believing Mary to be ever-virgin. I have heard it mentioned how there is too much in Scripture that refutes this claim.

Where in Scared Scripture does it say {fill in the blank} was the son or daughter of Mary and Joseph? Is there somebody who is said to be “son(s) of Mary of Joseph”

adelphos can mean anything from blood related sibling to all men, all apostles all Christians, as well as cousin or national ancestor within the same clan. O' Brother, Where Art Thou?

JosephT

 

[WIP]

Where in Scared Scripture does it say {fill in the blank} was the son or daughter of Mary and Joseph? Is there somebody who is said to be “son(s) of Mary of Joseph”

adelphos can mean anything from blood related sibling to all men, all apostles all Christians, as well as cousin or national ancestor within the same clan. O' Brother, Where Art Thou?

JosephT

If we review the Scripture I posted, it can be noted that it uses the term "brothers" along with others such as mother, apostles, multitudes, even mentioning some by name like Cephas. If brothers is referring to a general group such as brothers in Christ or some other overall generality, there would be no need to call out apostles, disciples, and so forth within the same sentence.

The Scriptures didn't have to define Mary and Joseph as the parents of Jesus' half brothers. It's implied just as when someone comments about one or more of my 6 brothers and sisters it isn't necessary to include clarification by saying sons and daughters of Severin and Jeanette.

When someone asks me a questions such as, "How are your brothers?" I know they are talking about one of my two brothers, Mike or John, and not about my brothers in Christ or brothers in arms or anything of that nature.

I think the argument you make is a thin one but that is just my opinion I guess.

 

[stovebolts]

St. Mary herself makes a prophetic prediction in the Magnificat. Reading over it lightly many of us (including myself) tend to see it as a expression of joy; which of course it is but only in part. After the angel’s annunciation of the coming Christ child, Mary says,

"My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. [49] Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him. He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed forever." [Luke 1:46-55].​

Her soul magnifies the Lord, so how? I see Mary as a magnifying glass making it possible to understand and see the christological, and theological aspects of God and Jesus Christ. That is to say just who is it we worship, a mystic or God? How can we have two Persons who are God if there is only one God? How does God become flesh unless He makes the flesh, in doing so he undoes the humanity. Thus, he becomes God/mystic flesh instead of the two natures he had God/man, theandric. In the Apostolic Creed we say God from God true God from true God. Begotten not made born of woman. Mary is the person through whom we look that bring our clouded and bifurcated vision into to see one God, three Persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

As you might recall we say God is all powerful, present everywhere in every time, and all knowledgeable; omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient. God is the very essence of Eternity. Recall too that eternity has neither beginning nor ending, time then is contained within eternity, from the beginning to end of time. All knowledge is contained within Eternity as well.

The son of a human person is the expressed as the image of his father; the child is ‘begotten’ of the father. Jesus Christ is said to be the Son of God, One Divine Person is begotten in Eternity then in the flesh. As God is all knowledge, then the expressed image of all knowledge is Wisdom, not born or begotten rather having existed eternally with an Eternal Knowledge, much the same way when man uses his knowledge it produces wisdom.

Christ did take on the form of humanity as Jesus, in the mysteries of the Incarnation. And, Christ is the expressed image of God in being the Wisdom of God. [Hebrews 1:3] We see it in the Greek, “Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.”(At the beginning of time the Logos already was; and God had the Logos abiding with him, and the Word was God.) [John 1:1], in the same way a man’s wisdom abides in himself. And continuing, in John the Greek: “καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο,” (And the Logos became flesh) [John 1:14]. John says that the ‘Logos’ always existed and was God and furthermore the ‘Logos’ became man. Truth exists, the Incarnation happened. To be absolutely clear, John is not saying God is the audible expression of himself, “rhema”, Greek for the audible word.

Instead let’s look again at the Powerful Eternity (God) the Logos as the Wisdom of God, ever present, all powerful. Divine Wisdom exists with God in all eternity. Christ is not ‘made or created’ by God, rather the Same Substance of God, all of Divine Eternity, the expressed image of God. Solomon described Wisdom as follows:

For in her [Wisdom] is the spirit of understanding: holy, one, manifold, subtile, eloquent, active, undefiled, sure, sweet, loving that which is good, quick, which nothing hindereth, beneficent, Gentle, kind, steadfast, assured, secure, having all power, overseeing all things, and containing all spirits, intelligible, pure, subtile. For wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she [Wisdom] is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her.​

​

For she is the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God' s majesty, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself the same, she reneweth all things, and through nations conveyeth herself into holy souls, she maketh the friends of God and prophets. For God loveth none but him that dwelleth with wisdom. For she is more beautiful than the sun, and above all the order of the stars: being compared with the light, she is found before it. For after this cometh night, but no evil can overcome wisdom. [Wisdom 7:22 sqq.]​

In Proverbs we find a description of the coming Anointed One who ‘became’ man. Wisdom herself tells us who the man is through whom all things were made in Proverbs 8:

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways, before he made anything from the beginning. I was set up from eternity, and of old before the earth was made. The depths were not as yet, and I was already conceived, neither had the fountains of waters as yet sprung out: The mountains with their huge bulk had not as yet been established: before the hills I was brought forth:​

​

He had not yet made the earth, nor the rivers, nor the poles of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was present: when with a certain law and compass he enclosed the depths: When he established the sky above, and poised the fountains of waters: When he compassed the sea with its bounds, and set a law to the waters that they should not pass their limits: when be balanced the foundations of the earth; I was with him forming all things: and was delighted every day, playing before him at all times [Proverbs 8:22 sqq.]​

The Wisdom of God comes forth from God in the likeness of the intellect that generates Wisdom in God. It is God who in all things expresses the image of Himself in the person of Jesus Christ. The expressed image of a human is his son; likewise, "The figure of His substance" is the expressed image of God the Father who is His Son.

But, how is physical substance of the New Adam to be born of woman unless God makes a God within the womb of Mary. A man who is without the stain of original sin born of a woman without being contaminated with the human decease of original sin, lacking the original justice which was once Adam's - and yet remain human? It is done only through Mary, a creature, a creature who is singularly graced, justified, saved by her son before His own conception in the womb of HIs mother, she never to know sin; Ever Virgin spiritually, ever virgin physically.

Mary's response to Gabriel's annunciation was a humble vow of fidelity, consistent with Temple rites of marital vows. Thus, we hold the New Eve God’s bride bore God's eternal son the new Adam in for a sacrificial lamb for the sins of man. After Noah dark seas in Jewish culture represented sin and punishment bore by all men, death. The Immaculate Mary carried Her Son in her body as a vessel across the dark seas of sin to the shores of our redemption. The Ever-Virgin Mary is the Ark of everlasting life, the mother of our Salvation, the mother of the Living Grace and as the Lord’s mother, the Queen of Heaven.

JosephT

JosephT,

First, thank you for sharing such a beautiful picture. I have read Proverbs many times and saw our Lord many times within those writings, but Wisdom always tripped me up because Wisdom was referred to as "She". Putting Mary in that role seems to fit well and your correct, I have skipped over Mary's words many times, not understanding the depths of her words.

What you wrote was very dense, and I will have to read it several more times to fully take it in. But what I see is good, thank you for taking the time to write it.

Please know that there will be those that have a hard time seeing theological pictures because they view scriptures a little more systematically similar to a math equation with data points and intersecting lines. Most of them love our Savior as much as you and they have as much time in their studies as you. We all may see things a little differently, but God judges the soul and see's the heart.

May we have charity among us.

Jeff

 

[JosephT]

To JosephT

Why do Catholics call Mary the "Ever Virgin Mary?" It's written that she was a virgin when she was pregnant with Jesus, and that Joseph and Mary waited until Jesus was born before they acted on their marriage. But they are married. Why would Mary say a virgin with her husband? I never understood this doctrine or this title. I'm not a Catholic, so it's never been explained to me by a Catholic priest or by some other Catholic writings.

The closest explanation I've heard isn't from a Catholic perspective, but from a secular perspective that was questioning Christianity as a whole. The criticism was that Christianity steals from pagan religions that are local and puts them in a Christian context as a means to spread Christianity. The argument was applied to Jesus, the saints revered in Catholic traditions, and the titles of Mary to be idols that were worshiped in pagan and polytheistic religions. Adopting new theology or new titles to bring in a new population.

Though I don't believe this argument towards Jesus, I would still welcome a Catholic perspective on why Mary is called the ever virgin to consider against the secular hypothesis of Christian history and Christianity being spread.

Sin is a voluntary act of disobedience to the Word of God. Sin entered the world through one man, Adam. Prior to the fall, Adam stood before God as a just man. Adam had no need of salvation as he was created good, as it were sanctified. Original justice accompanying Adam's creation was a moral quality or habit that perfectly joins the will to an enlightened understanding of the will of God. Justice is inexplicably joined to the other cardinal virtues; justice gives the rights to honorable prudence, temperance, and fortitude in moral acts. All acts are for the glory and honor of God but without God’s justice every act is avaricious and without honor. It could be said Adam 'abided' in God, much like we are invited to abide in Christ partaking in the Eucharist, [John 6:57], except wholly and completely without the aid of His graces. Adam could ‘reason’ why he should be honorable, just, prudent, and strong in his virtuous graces simply because he knew God, Adam spoke with God, and was befriended by God until the fall. Because Adam acted unjustly we bear the punishment of a depravation of the original justice man once held. That punishment is transmitted, not by the flesh, rather by inherence of being in the clan of man. Mankind is not re-made with ‘sin nature’ only his ability to approach the will of God is deprived.

Until Christ no individual act by man can redeem mankind, as any act without rectitude-of-will for its own sake [Cf. St. Anselm, On Truth, 12] is covetousness and without honor. The expiation is found in the sacrifice of the ‘prefect’ Lamb, the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ who is both wholly God and wholly man. We should be asking if Jesus Christ is wholly man then he too must have original sin.

All of which brings us to Mary, the Mother of God. She is the vessel, that is typifies the Ark of the New Covenant in her person, carrying as it were, the New Adam across the seas of sin, death and perdition to the new shores of salvation, justice and life. In the greeting of the archangel we find the Greek word kecharitomene not only meaning full of grace in the present, but in the past and will continue in the future. She becomes the personification of both the ark of Noah and Moses’ Ark of the Covenant. She is a type who compasses a man, “A WOMAN [WHO] SHALL COMPASS A MAN”, “a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son”, a type of Sarah, and a type of Rebekah mother who is the Mother of the New Israel.

The uniqueness of Mary’s personage is without parallel in Sacred Scripture.

• Gen 3:15 / Rev. 12:1 - Eve is the beginning Satan’s dominance over man and the New Eve end Satan’s dominance over men.
• John 2:4, 19:26 - Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ who is God and is a man.
• Isaiah 7:14; Matt. 1:23 - Mary is the virgin who bore God
• Luke 1:35 - The Child she bore is the “Son of God”
• Luke 1:28 - Mary is full of grace.
• Luke 1:46 - Mary’s soul magnifies the Lord.
• Exodus 25:11-21 - Mary is the immaculate Ark of the covenant (untouched by human hands) was a type for the Immaculate Ark of the New Covenant.

Mary’s immaculate birth is not only predicted in the Old Testament but found pleasing to God that she should not know sin, original or actual sin; else Jesus Christ would be born of sin. Thus St. Mary is a virgin with regard to sin.

Consequently, being a type of ark, to touch Mary would result in death [Cf. Numbers 4:15 2 Kings 6:6-8], and what just man would touch such an ark. You'll find in Matthew that Joseph is called out to be a "just man". Secondly, after bearing God’s son for Mary to be with any other would not only have endangered her earthly husband for the touch of her, but would have made her adulterous for she bore child of her spouse which was God not Joseph. Joseph would have seen it much the same way, it would have been sacrilege to be with Mary as well as adulterous. Therefore Mary is a virgin regarding her relationship with Joseph.

Let me suggest you read St. Jerome “Against Helvidius.” I don’t know who Helvidius is but he sure drew out St. Jerome’s ire suggesting that Mary was not Ever Virgin. Furthermore, as I've suggested else where there is no mention of blood related siblings of Jesus Christ in Scripture.

JosephT

 

[JosephT]

JosephT,

First, thank you for sharing such a beautiful picture. I have read Proverbs many times and saw our Lord many times within those writings, but Wisdom always tripped me up because Wisdom was referred to as "She". Putting Mary in that role seems to fit well and your correct, I have skipped over Mary's words many times, not understanding the depths of her words.

What you wrote was very dense, and I will have to read it several more times to fully take it in. But what I see is good, thank you for taking the time to write it.

Please know that there will be those that have a hard time seeing theological pictures because they view scriptures a little more systematically similar to a math equation with data points and intersecting lines. Most of them love our Savior as much as you and they have as much time in their studies as you. We all may see things a little differently, but God judges the soul and see's the heart.

May we have charity among us.

Jeff

I hope I hadn't made a terrible mistake, but the She, or Wisdom found in the Book of Wisdom is a description of Jesus Christ. Maybe I failed to make the link between the "Logos" found in John 1:1 and John 1:14 to Wisdom 7 and Proverbs 8. Logos is the Greek word for the mental form of word, we ascribe this form of word to wisdom because it is born out of knowledge. Like Eve was born out of the side of Adam.

The 'Logos' is more than the audible Word of God; in scripture it might be more properly defined as the Divine Wisdom. "The Logos was made flesh, and dwelt among us" is the result of the incarnation which occurs in time. The Second Person of the Trinity, Christ is eternally Divine Wisdom. Jesus is the light of Divine Wisdom, Incarnate, who "dwelt among us . . . full of grace and truth." This is the Personified Word of God in the Person whose Divine hypostasis existed in the eternal past, exists in the Person of Christ in antiquity, exists in Christ today and exists in Jesus Christ for eternity. He joined Himself with flesh, blood, and soul of man in perfect harmony as the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Both the natures and wills of God and man are united in a harmonious union that animated His Body to a seamless concomitant act, yet not conjoined.

The Divine Christ was foretold to be born of a woman. The significance of Mary can’t be denied. "Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations." (Jeremias 1:5). The prophet sent to all nations was formed in the belly of Mary, but before that God knew His own Wisdom. Wisdom, love of truth, is the Divine motivator, pushing us toward Christ who came through Mary;

"For [Divine] wisdom is more active than all active things: and reacheth everywhere by reason of her purity. For she is a vapour of the power of God, and a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God: and therefore no defiled thing cometh into her. (Wisdom 7:24-27)​

Sophia is the begotten, not made formed at the foundation of all that exists in time. “The LORD begot me, the beginning. . ." (Proverbs 8:22-24) "Now with you is Wisdom, who knows your works and was present when you made the world; Who understands what is pleasing in your eyes and what is conformable with your commands." (Proverbs 9:9). This incarnate Word of God came to create His Kingdom on earth for the Salvation of men, "All wisdom is from the Lord and remains with him forever" (Sirach 1:1). An eternal God, "Before all ages, from the beginning, he created me [Divine Wisdom], and through all ages I shall not cease to be." (Sirach 24:9)

Our Physician is the only true God, the unbegotten and unapproachable, the Lord of all, the Father and Begetter of the only-begotten Son. We have also as a Physician the Lord our God, Jesus the Christ, the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For "the Word was made flesh." [Cf. John 1:14] Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.’" (Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians (long version), 7).​

Jesus was wholly man as well as wholly God therefore no actual sin could be in Chris. Thus being Divine could not have been born deprived of original Justice (original sin is the deprivation of original justice).

Like Adam, Jesus Christ came to us with original justice. Simply put, original justice can be thought of as being friends with God. St. Augustine's journey searching for the source of evil in men and the need for Salvation. St. Thomas explains that in men, because of Adam's sin, God withheld original justice which "united the will to God, produced an overflowing of perfection into other powers, namely, that knowledge of truth enlightened the intellect, and that the irascible and concupiscible appetites received direction from reason." [Cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, De Malo]

I think it is quite clear (it can't be any other way) that Christ was born without original sin, without actual sin, and born of a woman whose flesh He inherits was without original sin.

For what little I know, in part the reason we read 'she' in the Book of Wisdom is because Wisdom is grammatically feminine. The other part seems to be that Wisdom is the recipient of knowledge, hence the reception of God's grace and knowledge; the depository of which is the Church.

JosephT

 

[stovebolts]

Thanks for clearing that up. I misunderstood you earlier regarding Mary and Wisdom

You said,

I think it is quite clear (it can't be any other way) that Christ was born without original sin, without actual sin, and born of a woman whose flesh He inherits was without original sin.

That is about as clear as I've read anyone say it.

You said a few things earlier that perhaps you can add clarity to. You stated Adam was created good, and without sin. I agree with this. But I also believe that Adam was created with the propencity to sin. This in and of itself does not constitute Adam as being created sinful, which I do not see nor do I agree with.

Can you expound upon St. Augustus' view of original sin and how that plays into what you've written in regard to Mary?

It is good to read real theology. Thank you for sharing.

 

[JosephT]

If we review the Scripture I posted, it can be noted that it uses the term "brothers" along with others such as mother, apostles, multitudes, even mentioning some by name like Cephas. If brothers is referring to a general group such as brothers in Christ or some other overall generality, there would be no need to call out apostles, disciples, and so forth within the same sentence.

I did review your list of Scripture, and if I recall correctly each 'brother' has been called to be the son of another set of parents elsewhere in Scripture.

The Scriptures didn't have to define Mary and Joseph as the parents of Jesus' half brothers. It's implied just as when someone comments about one or more of my 6 brothers and sisters it isn't necessary to include clarification by saying sons and daughters of Severin and Jeanette.

You've made an assumption that they are 'half brother'. No other children are called out to be the sons or daughters of Joseph. Lineage was more important to first century Jews than the grande dame from Massachusetts lineage of ancestors who came over on the Mayflower.

When someone asks me a questions such as, "How are your brothers?" I know they are talking about one of my two brothers, Mike or John, and not about my brothers in Christ or brothers in arms or anything of that nature.

Excellent, It is good that we think of our families. However, the customs of Christ's day extended 'family' to multiple generations, living and dead. Consequently, "brother" was quite often expressed as 'son of', assuming it wasn't already embedded in the name of the individual.

I think the argument you make is a thin one but that is just my opinion I guess.

How about if I make it a little bit stronger?

adelphos does not define the relationship between individuals in antiquity clearly unless the relationship is defined, usually with the words 'son of'. An example of unambiguous brothers:

And going on from thence, he saw other two brethren, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in a ship with Zebedee their father, mending their nets; and he called them. [Matthew 4:21]​

Brothers appear twice in the verse and furthermore points to the paterfamilias, the father sits in a boat with the brothers mending nets. Clearly verse has two brothers James and John with the same blood related father. Likewise ‘brothers’, mothers or fathers are clearly illustrated in similar verses such as Matthew 10:21; Mark 6:17; Luke 20:28 and John 11:21

adelphos is used in yet another form to distinguish national ancestry, particularly among the men of Israel. Those whose linage was from Abraham were considered ‘brethren’:

Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent. [Acts 13:26]​

Here we see the relationship of men based on heritage. ‘Brethren’ are those who are of Abraham’s stock, one of the 12 tribes of Israel. But notice the distinction is ambiguous; one need only be a member of the 12 tribes to be “brothers.” Likewise see Matthew 5:47, after all, even today we refer to brothers as being from the same nation. You might recall the movie ‘Band of Brothers’ and the sense of pride and respect we have for our fathers of WWII who fought as a "band of American brothers".

adelphos is also used to describe our fellow man regardless of nationality. An example:

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, [Hebrews 2:11]​

Jesus suffered and died, said St. Paul, for all of mankind, not just the Jew, not just Jerusalem. Again there is an ambiguity of blood relationship except that all humans are related to Adam and Eve.

adelphos is used as an expression of affection. This is frequently expressed in the family of God, were no blood relationship exists. We see this brotherly love in Matthew 18:8, John 21:23 and Acts 6:3 and again in St. Paul’s work Romans 1:13:

Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles. Romans 1:13​

Even today as indifferentism runs rampant we address people as ‘brother’.

adelphos is used in Sacred Scripture to express fellow officers, notice the use of brethren in Scripture also expresses those a hierarchy of office. Of particular note is St. Paul addressing the Colossians where St. Paul addresses the faithful as well as his fellow Bishop Timothy.

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ, by the will of God, and Timothy, a brother, the saints and faithful brethren in Christ Jesus, who are at Colossa. [Colossians 1:1-2]​

Here we see Timothy as a brother Bishop in the Kingdom of God, the Catholic Church and we see the family of God in the faithful “brethren in Christ Jesus”. Please don’t tell me that all the people in the Church of Colossa are blood siblings of Jesus Christ.

You might also see Colossians 2:13 and Ephesians 4:21 where we see the distinguishing mark of office in ‘brother’. And there is no blood relationship inferred by the text.

adelphos is used for a brethren in Christ.

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. [Matthew 25:40]​

These brethren in Christ are members of His Kingdom, His Church as the first fruit, the ministers of the Lord. They were called brothers because they too became adopted sons of God. Fear not, Christ said, tell my brothers to go to Galilee. Was Christ wasn’t referring only to James His supposed brother, but all those who walked with Him, then and all those who walk with Him now. Also, see also Hebrew 2:11 sqq. Matthew 28:10; John 20:17 Romans 8:29

So we see that when St. Paul refers to James the Lord’s brother, Paul is acknowledging James is an Apostle, as He is. He is acknowledging there is a hierarchy being established within the Church where certain leading members are organizing into the core Magisterium. Consequently, By His Mercy has correctly identified which adelphos was being used in the text.

1) James, son of Zebedee (Matthew 4:21, Matthew 10:2, Mark 1:19-20, Mark 3:17, etc.)​

2) James, son of Alpheus (Matthew 10:3, Mark 3:18, etc.)​

In fact we can name all the adelphos in Scripture such that none is left as the blood related sibling of Christ.

As an aside, it has been suggested that the Greek συγγενής (syggenēs), meaning in, or clansmen as well as countryman, would have been used if the blood relationship between “brothers” was something less than that of blood related siblings. However, it seems that the overwhelming number of the uses of “brother” meaning something other than a blood related sibling makes the argument weak if not void all together. As an example, Christ lists the various relationships distinguishing brethren from clansmen:

“Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompense be made thee” [Luke 14:12]​

Even more important the reason that adelphos is frequently used by Christ because of His two greatest commandments, the first commandment defines the second. “Master,” Christ is asked, “which is the greatest commandment in the law? Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.” [Matthew 22:36 - 40] Without exception Christ is calling all to be His brother as adopted sons of God. We are to treat all men in the same loving way as we Love God and ourselves.

In these examples I believe I named all the 26 or so called 'brothers' of Christ. Maybe I missed one or two but we can catch them up later. If we consider them to be true blood related siblings of Christ, then with that many children we should honor the Holy Mother as an UBER MOM as well as the Mother of God, wouldn't you think?

You seem be a man of constant sorrows identifying brothers where none exist, dare we ask, O' Brother, Where Art Thou?

JosephT

 

[Tessa]

JosephT Hello and thank you for sharing. I'm sorry but 3cannot understand something. If Mary had to be born without original sin so that Jesus, taking Mary's flesh, could be worn with It original sin, so then wouldn't Mary's mother have to have been too, to enable Mary to be born without original sin? And then so wouldn't it go back through the line as far as Adam?
With God all things are possible, there for I believe Jesus could have been born without original sin without the need for Mary to have been.

 

[JosephT]

With God all things are possible, there for I believe Jesus could have been born without original sin without the need for Mary to have been.

You can't help but notice that I turned you comments upside down.

With God all things are possible, couldn't agree more. But, there are some things God cannot do or be and at the same time honor our freewill, His own created world and, and His own Wisdom. A bad example is, God cannot sin - that’s so obvious it hurts. Another is God cannot be stupid. Here is another example germane to our discussions; God cannot create God, else He wouldn't be God. You should be able to agree with and possibly add to these examples. Nevertheless, keep in mind that ‘with God all things are possible’.

Hello and thank you for sharing. I'm sorry but cannot understand something. If Mary had to be born without original sin so that Jesus, taking Mary's flesh, could be worn with It original sin, so then wouldn't Mary's mother have to have been too, to enable Mary to be born without original sin? And then so wouldn't it go back through the line as far as Adam?

I don’t know if you’ve done it, but I cannot find a better way in which to describe how Jesus Christ comes to us as God without God, making him, in which case neither are god. Or, without possessing Christ much as a ghost possess a man or as a spirit possess a man in which case His freewill is encumbered or removed. Jesus Christ is a PERSON, not a suite. We say He is one Hypostasis that is one person, with two natures, the nature of God and the nature of man.

The answer to the question wouldn’t ‘Mary's mother have to have been too’ is simple, biblical and logical. Mary was born ‘blessed’ with the grace of justification from the moment of her creation. It happened to Mary in the womb of her mother, much the same way we claim to be elect and blessed with the grace of justification, through His mercy and love. Mary received at conception the same graces we receive in the Catholic baptismal fount, justification, the partial restoration of original justice. Now, with just a bit facetiousness I’m forced to ask, are not all things possible with God?

JosephT

 

[ezra]

ay we claim to be elect and blessed with the grace of justification, through His mercy and love. Mary received at conception the same graces we receive in the Catholic baptismal fount, justification, the partial restoration of original justice. Now, with just a bit facetiousness I’m forced to ask, are not all things possible with God?

all things are possible with God yes !!!!!! but the above

the same graces we receive in the Catholic baptismal fount, justification, the partial restoration of original justice

baptism is following in Christ steps it does not justify us .we are justified at the new birth i disagree with catholic teachings

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

To JosephT

Thankyou for that explaination. It is a lot to consider, so it's not something I can say yes or no to without further consideration. One thing though is that for me, I've seen different doctrines and philosophies that seem true from one angle, but not actually true. Some have indepth thought put into them, and are a real struggle to work past to correct. The examples that come to mind are conversations with atheists and those of different religions.

I'm not trying to reduce what you've said or any truth it might hold. However, I have to caution you. My ultimate source of knowing the truth from what isn't is based on the bible. Basically all that means is that logic and explainations that are outside of scripture are considered just a possibility to me. At least as long as it's not corrected within the bible. Solo scripture first, then study and understanding from brothers and sisters. That's how I think a foundation should be built on.

It'll take time to consider what you've said. Probabley will not have a full conclusion till long after these conversations.

 

[stovebolts]

all things are possible with God yes !!!!!! but the above baptism is following in Christ steps it does not justify us .we are justified at the new birth i disagree with catholic teachings

Hi Ezra,
Please show some respect for our guest and find points where we can reconcile our differences. We don't always have to distinguish our differences to have some great discussions. Besides, this thread is more about Mary than baptism. Not to say baptism ins't important.. it is. But I would hope we can find common ground and build from there.

 

[Tessa]

You can't help but notice that I turned you comments upside down.

With God all things are possible, couldn't agree more. But, there are some things God cannot do or be and at the same time honor our freewill, His own created world and, and His own Wisdom. A bad example is, God cannot sin - that’s so obvious it hurts. Another is God cannot be stupid. Here is another example germane to our discussions; God cannot create God, else He wouldn't be God. You should be able to agree with and possibly add to these examples. Nevertheless, keep in mind that ‘with God all things are possible’.



I don’t know if you’ve done it, but I cannot find a better way in which to describe how Jesus Christ comes to us as God without God, making him, in which case neither are god. Or, without possessing Christ much as a ghost possess a man or as a spirit possess a man in which case His freewill is encumbered or removed. Jesus Christ is a PERSON, not a suite. We say He is one Hypostasis that is one person, with two natures, the nature of God and the nature of man.

The answer to the question wouldn’t ‘Mary's mother have to have been too’ is simple, biblical and logical. Mary was born ‘blessed’ with the grace of justification from the moment of her creation. It happened to Mary in the womb of her mother, much the same way we claim to be elect and blessed with the grace of justification, through His mercy and love. Mary received at conception the same graces we receive in the Catholic baptismal fount, justification, the partial restoration of original justice. Now, with just a bit facetiousness I’m forced to ask, are not all things possible with God?

JosephT

I don't mind you being facetious to me,.
Nowhere did I say or imply that Jesus was not God. I was trying to understand your belief that Mary was born already justified. I was not being facetious and I am sorry if you took it that way. I have never heard that belief before. They were questions not comments.
Peace to you.

 

[ezra]

Hi Ezra,
Please show some respect for our guest and find points where we can reconcile our differences. We don't always have to distinguish our differences to have some great discussions. Besides, this thread is more about Mary than baptism. Not to say baptism ins't important.. it is. But I would hope we can find common ground and build from there.

that was respectful mary was a chosen vessel to bring the Christ seed in .she is not to be worshiped . she had a important role .we dont know what happened to her after she seen Christ crucified when the word justified is used in relation to being justified . i will not agree

 

[MarkT]

Her soul magnifies the Lord, so how?

To magnify the Lord is to make his name great. To enlarge his name. To exalt his name.

Psalm 34:3
O magnify the Lord with me, and let us exalt his name together!

Psalm 69:30
I will praise the name of God with a song; I will magnify him with thanksgiving.

So she is saying how great God is.