St. Mary . . .

[stovebolts]

that was respectful mary was a chosen vessel to bring the Christ seed in .she is not to be worshiped . she had a important role .we dont know what happened to her after she seen Christ crucified when the word justified is used in relation to being justified . i will not agree

Nobody is asking you to agree. What I'm asking is instead of putting your focus on where you disagree, please find a place of agreement.

As you know, Joseph is the first Catholic to express his belief in many, many years on this site and I don't see him picking out others faults. What I see him doing is answering questions directed at him openly and honestly. In addition, Joseph has written a few hundred lines, please don't tell me you can't find anything within what he's written that you can grow and learn from.

 

[ezra]

not picking out faults i pointed error of scripture on justified with baptism ..since it creates wrinkles. i will let others hash it out

 

[stovebolts]

not picking out faults i pointed error of scripture on justified with baptism ..since it creates wrinkles. i will let others hash it out

If I may... You pointed out where you disagreed with another's view on baptism and justification. My background is church of Christ and we view baptism radically different than systematic theology teaches and differently than Catholics (East and West). I could very well point out the differences between you and I and I could also point out the differences between some of my church of Christ brothers who frequent this site. Heck, I could turn this forum into a pure church of Christ forum if I choose to.

But I choose not to. I can find common ground with you and the Catholics and through that common ground, iron sharpens iron. Iron is not sharpened through our differences, it is sharpened by what we have in common as we stretch one another in love for the mutual edification of the saints.

 

[MarkT]

JosephT

Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Mt. 13:55,56

Just so you know Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Maybe I shouldn't have said Mary was 'just' a woman. She was indeed the blessed mother of our Lord Jesus.

John 2:4
And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

Here Jesus is distancing himself from his mother saying turning water into wine was not what he was sent to do. Nevertheless he kept the law to “Honor your father and your mother".

 

[ezra]

If I may... You pointed out where you disagreed with another's view on baptism and justification. My background is church of Christ and we view baptism radically different than systematic theology teaches and differently than Catholics (East and West). I could very well point out the differences between you and I and I could also point out the differences between some of my church of Christ brothers who frequent this site. Heck, I could turn this forum into a pure church of Christ forum if I choose to.

But I choose not to. I can find common ground with you and the Catholics and through that common ground, iron sharpens iron. Iron is not sharpened through our differences, it is sharpened by what we have in common as we stretch one another in love for the mutual edification of the saints.

you may point out any indifference you have with my belief on baptism justification .i have broad shoulder it does not bother me to disagree or someone disagree with my point of belief..i said i was backing out and that is what i am doing , i am moving on to bigger better things

 

[JosephT]

To JosephT

Thankyou for that explanation. It is a lot to consider, so it's not something I can say yes or no to without further consideration. One thing though is that for me, I've seen different doctrines and philosophies that seem true from one angle, but not actually true. Some have in depth thought put into them, and are a real struggle to work past to correct. The examples that come to mind are conversations with atheists and those of different religions.

I put thoughts in front of this forum so that you might test them against Scripture and reality. Please do so.

I'm not trying to reduce what you've said or any truth it might hold. However, I have to caution you. My ultimate source of knowing the truth from what isn't is based on the bible. Basically all that means is that logic and explanations that are outside of scripture are considered just a possibility to me. At least as long as it's not corrected within the bible. Solo scripture first, then study and understanding from brothers and sisters. That's how I think a foundation should be built on.

It'll take time to consider what you've said. Probably will not have a full conclusion till long after these conversations.

I've asked nothing, I've demanded nothing. I've only discussed with you Catholic reality. Please, test it every inch of it.

Adhering to the principles of 'bible alone' you'll find that logically the source, root and rule is yourself. The adherent uses it as a pretense of rights and liberty; not to "subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself." [Attributed to Voltaire]. But such a liberated man will find himself to be anything but free, rather chained to a book. It turns Christianity on its head, as its main tenet is to serve the will of God.

God is present in the world.

JosephT

 

[JosephT]

I don't mind you being facetious to me,.
Nowhere did I say or imply that Jesus was not God. I was trying to understand your belief that Mary was born already justified. I was not being facetious and I am sorry if you took it that way. I have never heard that belief before. They were questions not comments.
Peace to you.

Sorry, the intent was that I was being facetious, not you. If you'll read the post again it may become obvious. But, it wouldn't be the first time my little joke went off course. So, I apologize.

JosephT

 

[JosephT]

JosephT

Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Mt. 13:55,56

Just so you know Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Maybe I shouldn't have said Mary was 'just' a woman. She was indeed the blessed mother of our Lord Jesus.

James, Joseph Simon and Judas were family members other than brothers (nephew) or Apostles. (sons of St. Mary's sister). Refer to Matthew 27:56, John 19:25.

St. James & St. John Zebedee(2 Apostles): St. James the Greater and St. John — sons of Zebedee and Salome, Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40; 16:1 St. John knows the high-priest (John 18:16) and is given the care of Mother of Jesus John 19:27. St. James the Greater was at the Transfiguration Mark 9:1; Matthew 17:1; Luke 9:28, and the Agony in Gethsemani , Matthew 26:37; Mark 14:33. Martyred around 44 A.D., Acts 12:1-2. Their mother was Salome the daughter of the high priest and the pious women who ministered to Christ (cf. Matthew 27:55, sq.; Mark 15:40; 16:1; Luke 8:2 sq.; 23:55-24:1). It’s Salome that wanted her sons to sit on the right hand of Christ’s throne. (Matthew 20:21).

James and Joseph (or Joses): James, Joseph (or Joses) sons of Cleopas — Mark 15:40; Matthew 27:56 the sons of Cleophas or Clopas (John 19:25). "Maria Cleophć" is generally translated "Mary the wife of Cleophas." Consequently we can conclude that these two were not siblings of Jesus. SJ Prat, in his book Jesus Christ, suggests that this Mary is the second wife of Cleophas CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Brethren of the Lord

Judas Iscariot (1 Apostle): Finally, we have Judas, the Apostle that betrayed our Lord. He was the only Apostle that wasn’t from Galilee. Being from the town of ‘Kerioth’ Judas can’t be a sibling of Jesus. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Judas Iscariot .

John 2:4
And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

Here Jesus is distancing himself from his mother saying turning water into wine was not what he was sent to do. Nevertheless he kept the law to “Honor your father and your mother".

see my response in post 6

We see this stand out most prominently in John’s Gospel in the words “Woman, what is that to me and to thee.” Here we see the “woman” representing Israel or Jerusalem as the daughter of Zion of the Old Testament religion in Judaism. Yet we hear Jesus say that His “hour is not yet come.” The implication being she has no authority to speak in His name just yet, she remains the image of the Old Israel. Further He says that she will speak when His “hour” has come. Which hour do you suppose Christ referred to? And we search through all the ministries of Christ till we find that last where ‘His hour comes’. And from that hour on Mary becomes the image and mother of our Church, “Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." [John 19:27] The New Testament, new dispensation, is handed over to the Church in the person of St. John. Jesus hands over (paradidōmi in Greek) the New Israel the Catholic Church, His soul. [Cf. John 19:30]. The “HOUR” had come for Mary to take on the role as Mother of the Church. John metaphorically tells us that St. Mary represents the Church, more precisely the Mother of the Church.

JosephT

 

[WIP]

JosephT

Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Mt. 13:55,56

Just so you know Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Maybe I shouldn't have said Mary was 'just' a woman. She was indeed the blessed mother of our Lord Jesus.

John 2:4
And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

Here Jesus is distancing himself from his mother saying turning water into wine was not what he was sent to do. Nevertheless he kept the law to “Honor your father and your mother".

You brought up a verse that brings out further questions regarding Mary. The way Jesus speaks to Mary in John 2:4 seems to border on disrespectful of the person who bore Him, especially if Mary is the queen of heaven as JosephT says.

JosephT, could you provide your view regarding this verse?

 

[WIP]

Judas Iscariot (1 Apostle): Finally, we have Judas, the Apostle that betrayed our Lord. He was the only Apostle that wasn’t from Galilee. Being from the town of ‘Kerioth’ Judas can’t be a sibling of Jesus. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Judas Iscariot .

There were two apostles named Judas as I understand it.

 

[JosephT]

There were two apostles named Judas as I understand it.

That's right; other than Judas Iscariot there is "Judas Jacobi” known as "Jude the brother of James" in the DRV. James was the son of Alpheus [Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18]. Jude is the author of Jude and mentioned in Luke 6:16 and Acts 1:13, also known as Thaddeus [Matthew 10:3; Mark 3:18]


JosephT

 

[JosephT]

You brought up a verse that brings out further questions regarding Mary. The way Jesus speaks to Mary in John 2:4 seems to border on disrespectful of the person who bore Him, especially if Mary is the queen of heaven as JosephT says.

JosephT, could you provide your view regarding this verse?

See post 6.

Mary the Mother of God representing the Old Covenant Church of Israel, then rightly she had no authority to ask for miracles, 'the hour had yet to come'. However in John 19:27 we see the very hour that Mary Mother of God came to represent the Church at the foot of the cross, "the disciple took her to his own".

We see this stand out most prominently in John’s Gospel in the words “Woman, what is that to me and to thee.” Here we see the “woman” representing Israel or Jerusalem as the daughter of Zion of the Old Testament religion in Judaism. Yet we hear Jesus say that His “hour is not yet come.” The implication being she has no authority to speak in His name just yet, she remains the image of the Old Israel. Further He says that she will speak when His “hour” has come. Which hour do you suppose Christ referred to? And we search through all the ministries of Christ till we find that last where ‘His hour comes’. And from that hour on Mary becomes the image and mother of our Church, “Behold thy mother. And from that hour, the disciple took her to his own." [John 19:27] The New Testament, new dispensation, is handed over to the Church in the person of St. John. Jesus hands over (paradidōmi in Greek) the New Israel the Catholic Church, His soul. [Cf. John 19:30]. The “HOUR” had come for Mary to take on the role as Mother of the Church. John metaphorically tells us that St. Mary represents the Church, more precisely the Mother of the Church.​

 

[MarkT]

James, Joseph Simon and Judas were family members other than brothers (nephew) or Apostles. (sons of St. Mary's sister). Refer to Matthew 27:56, John 19:25.

St. James & St. John Zebedee(2 Apostles): St. James the Greater and St. John — sons of Zebedee and Salome, Matthew 27:56; Mark 15:40; 16:1 St. John knows the high-priest (John 18:16) and is given the care of Mother of Jesus John 19:27. St. James the Greater was at the Transfiguration Mark 9:1; Matthew 17:1; Luke 9:28, and the Agony in Gethsemani , Matthew 26:37; Mark 14:33. Martyred around 44 A.D., Acts 12:1-2. Their mother was Salome the daughter of the high priest and the pious women who ministered to Christ (cf. Matthew 27:55, sq.; Mark 15:40; 16:1; Luke 8:2 sq.; 23:55-24:1). It’s Salome that wanted her sons to sit on the right hand of Christ’s throne. (Matthew 20:21).

James and Joseph (or Joses): James, Joseph (or Joses) sons of Cleopas — Mark 15:40; Matthew 27:56 the sons of Cleophas or Clopas (John 19:25). "Maria Cleophć" is generally translated "Mary the wife of Cleophas." Consequently we can conclude that these two were not siblings of Jesus. SJ Prat, in his book Jesus Christ, suggests that this Mary is the second wife of Cleophas CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Brethren of the Lord

Judas Iscariot (1 Apostle): Finally, we have Judas, the Apostle that betrayed our Lord. He was the only Apostle that wasn’t from Galilee. Being from the town of ‘Kerioth’ Judas can’t be a sibling of Jesus. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Judas Iscariot .



see my response in post 6



JosephT

24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus. Mt.1:24-25

The Bible says Joseph didn't know his wife until Mary had borne a son. So Joseph knew his wife. So then Mary would have had children by Joseph. Unless she was barren.

Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Mt. 13

The RSV says Jesus had brothers and sisters.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

You brought up a verse that brings out further questions regarding Mary. The way Jesus speaks to Mary in John 2:4 seems to border on disrespectful of the person who bore Him, especially if Mary is the queen of heaven as JosephT says.

JosephT, could you provide your view regarding this verse?

This is one of two verses where Jesus calls Mary "woman." But as to it being disrespectful I've heard some commentary on that if it helps. The idea as it was explained to me was that "woman" is not a term of disrespect as it's turned into in todaydy's day, but a term of translation. Considering we have several terms for women, from women, ladies, and girls. It's not a far stretch that one term is considered more respectful then another, and another convay age difference, but would all could be translated the same if another language didn't have a term to refer to women differently.

That explaination though is above my knowledge to check by the language it was origionally written in, to any other translating factors that might play out. But it's entirely possible that Jesus is being respectful when he says what he says. After all Mary instructs the servents to obey Jesus, and Jesus instructs them in the way that the Miracle occured. If it was really a rebuke or a rude comment, Mary might not have pushed it further.

 

[MarkT]

I put thoughts in front of this forum so that you might test them against Scripture and reality. Please do so.



I've asked nothing, I've demanded nothing. I've only discussed with you Catholic reality. Please, test it every inch of it.

Adhering to the principles of 'bible alone' you'll find that logically the source, root and rule is yourself. The adherent uses it as a pretense of rights and liberty; not to "subject himself to an authority, the root, rule, measure, and sanction of which is not in himself." [Attributed to Voltaire]. But such a liberated man will find himself to be anything but free, rather chained to a book. It turns Christianity on its head, as its main tenet is to serve the will of God.

God is present in the world.

JosephT

We have the book Isa. prophesied. We have the word of God. Why are you trying to explain what the Bible says? Are you free of the book or are you chained to it yourself?

 

[JosephT]

24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus. Mt.1:24-25

The Bible says Joseph didn't know his wife until Mary had borne a son. So Joseph knew his wife. So then Mary would have had children by Joseph. Unless she was barren.

The Bible is relating the fact that Joseph didn't know Mary before the birth of Christ.

"And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son. He has here used the word till, not that you should suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform you that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, has he used the word, till? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up. Genesis 8:7 And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture says, From age until age You are, not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away, it does not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word till, to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves you to make the inference. Thus, what it was necessary for you to learn of Him, this He Himself has said; that the Virgin was untouched by man until the birth; but that which both was seen to be a consequence of the former statement, and was acknowledged, this in its turn he leaves for you to perceive; namely, that not even after this, she having so become a mother, and having been counted worthy of a new sort of travail, and a child-bearing so strange, could that righteous man ever have endured to know her. For if he had known her, and had kept her in the place of a wife, how is it that our Lord John 19:27 commits her, as unprotected, and having no one, to His disciple, and commands him to take her to his own home? [St. John Chrysostom (347-407) , On Matthew, Homely 5]​

Adding other similar verses we see "behold I am with you all days, even to (heōs, until) the consummation of the world." Matthew 28:20. Are we to understand that once the world is consummated that Jesus is no longer with us?

“And the child grew, and was strengthened in spirit; and was in the deserts until (heōs, until) the day of his manifestation to Israel." [Luke 1:80]. Does the Christ lose his strength in spirit when He is revealed to Israel?

And she was a widow until (heōs, until) fourscore and four years; who departed not from the temple, by fastings and prayers serving night and day."[Luke 2:37] Did Anna suddenly become un-widowed after 84 years.

Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Mt. 13

The RSV says Jesus had brothers and sisters.

Did I not already address this in post 48? All the "brothers" are accounted for by 'other mothers'.


JosephT

 

[Walpole]

24 When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took his wife, 25 but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus. Mt.1:24-25

The Bible says Joseph didn't know his wife until Mary had borne a son. So Joseph knew his wife. So then Mary would have had children by Joseph. Unless she was barren.

St. Matthew's nativity account is only concerned with the events up until the nativity. His narrative is not focused on Joseph or Mary's conjugal life after the nativity. If he was, he would have written "until after" if he wanted to avoid any ambiguity. St. Matthew's nativity narrative is about identifying the Messiah, not about Joseph's sex life.

Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Mt. 13

The RSV says Jesus had brothers and sisters.

In Jewish antiquity, "brother" had a much wider meaning than we moderns use. There is NO scripture which identifies another as a son (or daughter) of Mary. Thus, any claim that Jesus had uterine siblings is one completely foreign to Scripture and the regula fidei of Christianity.

 

[MarkT]

The Bible is relating the fact that Joseph didn't know Mary before the birth of Christ.

"And when he had taken her, he knew her not, till she had brought forth her first-born Son. He has here used the word till, not that you should suspect that afterwards he did know her, but to inform you that before the birth the Virgin was wholly untouched by man. But why then, it may be said, has he used the word, till? Because it is usual in Scripture often to do this, and to use this expression without reference to limited times. For so with respect to the ark likewise, it is said, The raven returned not till the earth was dried up. Genesis 8:7 And yet it did not return even after that time. And when discoursing also of God, the Scripture says, From age until age You are, not as fixing limits in this case. And again when it is preaching the Gospel beforehand, and saying, In his days shall righteousness flourish, and abundance of peace, till the moon be taken away, it does not set a limit to this fair part of creation. So then here likewise, it uses the word till, to make certain what was before the birth, but as to what follows, it leaves you to make the inference. Thus, what it was necessary for you to learn of Him, this He Himself has said; that the Virgin was untouched by man until the birth; but that which both was seen to be a consequence of the former statement, and was acknowledged, this in its turn he leaves for you to perceive; namely, that not even after this, she having so become a mother, and having been counted worthy of a new sort of travail, and a child-bearing so strange, could that righteous man ever have endured to know her. For if he had known her, and had kept her in the place of a wife, how is it that our Lord John 19:27 commits her, as unprotected, and having no one, to His disciple, and commands him to take her to his own home? [St. John Chrysostom (347-407) , On Matthew, Homely 5]​

Adding other similar verses we see "behold I am with you all days, even to (heōs, until) the consummation of the world." Matthew 28:20. Are we to understand that once the world is consummated that Jesus is no longer with us?

“And the child grew, and was strengthened in spirit; and was in the deserts until (heōs, until) the day of his manifestation to Israel." [Luke 1:80]. Does the Christ lose his strength in spirit when He is revealed to Israel?

And she was a widow until (heōs, until) fourscore and four years; who departed not from the temple, by fastings and prayers serving night and day."[Luke 2:37] Did Anna suddenly become un-widowed after 84 years.



Did I not already address this in post 48? All the "brothers" are accounted for by 'other mothers'.


JosephT

The 'other' mothers would have had children of their own. There was the other Mary, the mother of James the younger and Joses, and there was the mother of the sons of Zebedee, John and James. And there was Mary's sister, apparently also named Mary, the wife of Clopas. Jn. 19:25

Apparently Mary was a common name and John and James and Judas and Simon.

Does this rule out the possibility that Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus, had children by Joseph? Isn't that why people marry? Or Jesus had brothers and sisters? No.

For even his brothers did not believe in him. John 5:7 Who did not believe in him?

Who went up to the feast without him? John 7:8-10

 

[WIP]

This is one of two verses where Jesus calls Mary "woman." But as to it being disrespectful I've heard some commentary on that if it helps. The idea as it was explained to me was that "woman" is not a term of disrespect as it's turned into in todaydy's day, but a term of translation. Considering we have several terms for women, from women, ladies, and girls. It's not a far stretch that one term is considered more respectful then another, and another convay age difference, but would all could be translated the same if another language didn't have a term to refer to women differently.

That explaination though is above my knowledge to check by the language it was origionally written in, to any other translating factors that might play out. But it's entirely possible that Jesus is being respectful when he says what he says. After all Mary instructs the servents to obey Jesus, and Jesus instructs them in the way that the Miracle occured. If it was really a rebuke or a rude comment, Mary might not have pushed it further.

It seems strange that He would refer to Mary as "woman" rather than "mother." Woman is far less intimate than mother.

 

[WIP]

The 'other' mothers would have had children of their own. There was the other Mary, the mother of James the younger and Joses, and there was the mother of the sons of Zebedee, John and James. And there was Mary's sister, apparently also named Mary, the wife of Clopas. Jn. 19:25

Apparently Mary was a common name and John and James and Judas and Simon.

Does this rule out the possibility that Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus, had children by Joseph? Isn't that why people marry? Or Jesus had brothers and sisters? No.

For even his brothers did not believe in him. John 5:7 Who did not believe in him?

Who went up to the feast without him? John 7:8-10

I wonder if there is confusion between those mentioned as Jesus' brothers vs the apostles by the same names.