St. Mary . . .

[JosephT]

Praying to Mary is worshipping Mary. Making statues and graven images of Mary is idolatry.

Then should we take it that you worship your own mother, father, or neighbor when you ask for them to pray for you? I hope you don’t have pictures of your family in your wallet, because then you would be an idolater.

If you consider Catholicism in the light that we are ‘brothers and sisters’ of our Lord then being a member of the family, the Church Militant. Catholics not only understand “Church” as signifying a building or a specific congregation in a specific place but also it is first understood as the entire Body of Christ and the temple of God. Those living on earth are the Church Militant; those being made perfect in purgatory are the church suffering; and those in heaven, the Church Triumphant.

"He cannot have God for his Father that refuses the Catholic Church for his Mother; neither can he attain to the Church Triumphant who is not a member of the Church Militant." (Saint Robert Southwell, S.J.)

In what sense can Mary be a role model? She believed the angel? OK What else did she do? She raised the child. So women should raise children? OK Perhaps a role model for women.

Paul said,

1 Timothy 2:15

Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

“Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." [1 Timothy 2:15]

If we hold to the contradictions created by the false Protestant theology, for women, the ‘works’ of child bearing become salvific. Justification by faith Alone is refuted in this admission of works. Instead, let’s look at the nature of most women which is to bear and nurture children. By the workings of the Protestant philosophy we should then conclude a woman not married is condemned? What about women that cannot physically bear children?

Matthew 12:48

But he replied to the man who told him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?”

Matthew 12:49

And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers!

Matthew 12:50

For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Here Jesus is relating his disciples to himself while Mary and his brothers stood outside.

As we discussed elsewhere in these forums, Christ lifts up his spiritual brothers and his Mother as a model for us to follow, fore he says, whoever does the will is my brother, sister and Mother. She teaches by example, the loudest sermon ever heard.

Was this teaching from Jesus or was it from Mary? Is Mary our Teacher? No. Jesus is our Teacher. He taught us God is our Father. He didn't say anything about Mary being our Mother. So Mary was a servant. She played an important part in the life of our Lord, but Jesus had to separate himself from his earthly mother to begin his ministry.

John 2:4
And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

The better translation of this verse is “And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come." [John 2:4]. Did you notice he says, what does “that to me and to thee”. These are the words of a partnership, apparently Mary is co-minister with Christ. We can say, Mary brought forth the Word of God. Yet the best you can say was Mary was a good servant? Explain why, Christ says, “My hour is not yet come.” Mary have everything to do with the incarnation and with crucifixion. She was faith in the beginning and in the end, faithful till the end.


JosephT

 

[billybalke]

Then should we take it that you worship your own mother, father, or neighbor when you ask for them to pray for you? I hope you don’t have pictures of your family in your wallet, because then you would be an idolater.

If you consider Catholicism in the light that we are ‘brothers and sisters’ of our Lord then being a member of the family, the Church Militant. Catholics not only understand “Church” as signifying a building or a specific congregation in a specific place but also it is first understood as the entire Body of Christ and the temple of God. Those living on earth are the Church Militant; those being made perfect in purgatory are the church suffering; and those in heaven, the Church Triumphant.

"He cannot have God for his Father that refuses the Catholic Church for his Mother; neither can he attain to the Church Triumphant who is not a member of the Church Militant." (Saint Robert Southwell, S.J.)



“Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." [1 Timothy 2:15]

If we hold to the contradictions created by the false Protestant theology, for women, the ‘works’ of child bearing become salvific. Justification by faith Alone is refuted in this admission of works. Instead, let’s look at the nature of most women which is to bear and nurture children. By the workings of the Protestant philosophy we should then conclude a woman not married is condemned? What about women that cannot physically bear children?



As we discussed elsewhere in these forums, Christ lifts up his spiritual brothers and his Mother as a model for us to follow, fore he says, whoever does the will is my brother, sister and Mother. She teaches by example, the loudest sermon ever heard.



The better translation of this verse is “And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come." [John 2:4]. Did you notice he says, what does “that to me and to thee”. These are the words of a partnership, apparently Mary is co-minister with Christ. We can say, Mary brought forth the Word of God. Yet the best you can say was Mary was a good servant? Explain why, Christ says, “My hour is not yet come.” Mary have everything to do with the incarnation and with crucifixion. She was faith in the beginning and in the end, faithful till the end.


JosephT

Where did Robert Southwell find that in the scripture? And BTW, there are no saints yet in heaven, if they are, scripture please.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVINIST

 

[MarkT]

Then should we take it that you worship your own mother, father, or neighbor when you ask for them to pray for you? I hope you don’t have pictures of your family in your wallet, because then you would be an idolater.

If you consider Catholicism in the light that we are ‘brothers and sisters’ of our Lord then being a member of the family, the Church Militant. Catholics not only understand “Church” as signifying a building or a specific congregation in a specific place but also it is first understood as the entire Body of Christ and the temple of God. Those living on earth are the Church Militant; those being made perfect in purgatory are the church suffering; and those in heaven, the Church Triumphant.

"He cannot have God for his Father that refuses the Catholic Church for his Mother; neither can he attain to the Church Triumphant who is not a member of the Church Militant." (Saint Robert Southwell, S.J.)

“Yet she shall be saved through childbearing; if she continue in faith, and love, and sanctification, with sobriety." [1 Timothy 2:15]

If we hold to the contradictions created by the false Protestant theology, for women, the ‘works’ of child bearing become salvific. Justification by faith Alone is refuted in this admission of works. Instead, let’s look at the nature of most women which is to bear and nurture children. By the workings of the Protestant philosophy we should then conclude a woman not married is condemned? What about women that cannot physically bear children?

Not necessarily. It's certainly encouraging women to have children, but it's not condemning unmarried women or women who can't have children.
1 Timothy 2:15
Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

So if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

In context Paul said no woman can teach or have authority over men as Adam was formed first, and then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 'Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.' 1 Timothy 2:12-15 RSV

So rather than teaching men, women are saved through bearing children, provided they continue in faith.

This argues against your philosophy that Mary is the Mother of the church.

As we discussed elsewhere in these forums, Christ lifts up his spiritual brothers and his Mother as a model for us to follow, fore he says, whoever does the will is my brother, sister and Mother. She teaches by example, the loudest sermon ever heard.

Women are not allowed to teach. Read the Bible. Mary is never consulted.

The better translation of this verse is “And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come." [John 2:4]. Did you notice he says, what does “that to me and to thee”. These are the words of a partnership, apparently Mary is co-minister with Christ. We can say, Mary brought forth the Word of God. Yet the best you can say was Mary was a good servant? Explain why, Christ says, “My hour is not yet come.” Mary have everything to do with the incarnation and with crucifixion. She was faith in the beginning and in the end, faithful till the end.


JosephT

I'm using the RSV.

So it says, John 2:4
And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

So his hour refers to his time when he would do the mighty works he was sent to do had not yet come.

We know God can hear our prayers when we pray in his name. 'Ask and you shall receive'
Matthew 21:22
And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

"for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. " Eph. 2:18

We have access to the Father through Jesus Christ. That's what Jesus said.

Perhaps Mary can hear you. Perhaps not. But nowhere in the Bible does it say we should pray to Mary. We already have access to the Father.

 

[billybalke]

Where did Robert Southwell find that in the scripture? And BTW, there are no saints yet in heaven, if they are, scripture please.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVINIST

btw--We don't find purgatory anywhere in the scripture.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVINIST

 

[JosephT]

Not necessarily. It's certainly encouraging women to have children, but it's not condemning unmarried women or women who can't have children.
1 Timothy 2:15
Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

So if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.

In context Paul said no woman can teach or have authority over men as Adam was formed first, and then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 'Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.' 1 Timothy 2:12-15 RSV

So rather than teaching men, women are saved through bearing children, provided they continue in faith.

This argues against your philosophy that Mary is the Mother of the church.

Nevertheless, you seem to be arguing that it requires a work for a woman's salvation, according to this philosophy a woman must bear children. How do you square that with 'Faith Alone'?

Women are not allowed to teach. Read the Bible. Mary is never consulted.

How do you know?

I'm using the RSV.

So it says, John 2:4
And Jesus said to her, “O woman, what have you to do with me? My hour has not yet come.”

So his hour refers to his time when he would do the mighty works he was sent to do had not yet come.

Which were what? So, when the hour does come, Mary can ask for miracles, then doesn't she become a conduit of His grace?

We know God can hear our prayers when we pray in his name. 'Ask and you shall receive'
Matthew 21:22
And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith.”

I have no doubt; but how much louder a voice do you suppose His spouse has?

"for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. " Eph. 2:18

We have access to the Father through Jesus Christ. That's what Jesus said.

"Now therefore you are no more strangers and foreigners; but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and the domestics of God," [Ephesians 2:19]

"Fellow citizens" are of one nation. All Catholics, whether in the Church Militant, the Church suffering or the Church Triumphant are of one nation, one Body. Hence, we pray for one another. . . "pray one for another, that you may be saved." [James 5:16]

Perhaps Mary can hear you. Perhaps not. But nowhere in the Bible does it say we should pray to Mary. We already have access to the Father.

That's fine, you have the Father. But, can the Son turn down a request that comes from His Mother?

JosephT

 

[JosephT]

Where did Robert Southwell find that in the scripture? And BTW, there are no saints yet in heaven, if they are, scripture please.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVINIST

You are the one that is restricted to the Bible Alone, I'm not. Catholicism's authority rests on Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Church which is comprised of the Pope, Bishops, doctors, Councils, synods, and early Church Fathers. But, if you need an answer, this is one that I've found to be beneficial. LINK.

It is necessary that one be deep in Catholicism. As the adage goes, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus; for the "Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth."

JosephT

 

[JosephT]

btw--We don't find purgatory anywhere in the scripture.

That's a shame, I can't find protesting and Schism as a virtue either. But, if you care to read the following you might not see them as virtue either.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-purgatory-in-the-bible

Many fear purgatory, but there seems little need. As you know, our faith holds that we can’t go to heaven until every transgression has been forgiven and our love for God has been perfected. Being afflicted with the ‘human’ disease there would seem little hope especially without purgatory. Paying for sin would seem to imply punishment, and likely severe punishment, is just retribution. But, the Pope suggests that in the following that God is ever gracious – God takes our failures and purges the error.

"Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 4 August 1999, following his catecheses on heaven and hell, the Holy Father [Pope John Paul II] reflected on Purgatory. He explained that physical integrity is necessary to enter into perfect communion with God therefore "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection".

1. As we have seen in the previous two catecheses, on the basis of the definitive option for or against God, the human being finds he faces one of these alternatives: either to live with the Lord in eternal beatitude, or to remain far from his presence.

For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032).

To share in divine life we must be totally purified

2. In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification.

According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10: 12f.)

The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15).

3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person's intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God's fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32: 30, 11-13). The figure of the Servant of the Lord, outlined in the Book of Isaiah, is also portrayed by his role of intercession and expiation for many; at the end of his suffering he "will see the light" and "will justify many", bearing their iniquities (cf. Is 52: 13-53, 12, especially vv. 53: 11).

Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration: the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or "cleansed" (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).

Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence

4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2).

Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgement for those who refuse the Father's love and forgiveness
.
This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14).

5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity.

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820).

It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one's destiny. The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth' (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48).

6. One last important aspect which the Church's tradition has always pointed out should be reproposed today: the dimension of "communio". Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house (cf. CCC, n. 1032).

Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude." Pope Benedict, L'Osservatore Romano, Weekly Edition in English, Purgatory: 11/18 August, 7​

Catholics believe that purgatory and heaven are "states of being", more precisely a state of being perfected, It is a state just like your present state of being human in a physical existence. Purgatory is but one such state, heaven is another.

JosephT

 

[billybalke]

That's a shame, I can't find protesting and Schism as a virtue either. But, if you care to read the following you might not see them as virtue either.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/is-purgatory-in-the-bible

Many fear purgatory, but there seems little need. As you know, our faith holds that we can’t go to heaven until every transgression has been forgiven and our love for God has been perfected. Being afflicted with the ‘human’ disease there would seem little hope especially without purgatory. Paying for sin would seem to imply punishment, and likely severe punishment, is just retribution. But, the Pope suggests that in the following that God is ever gracious – God takes our failures and purges the error.

​

​

"Before we enter into full communion with God, every trace of sin within us must be eliminated and every imperfection in our soul must be corrected​

​

At the General Audience of Wednesday, 4 August 1999, following his catecheses on heaven and hell, the Holy Father [Pope John Paul II] reflected on Purgatory. He explained that physical integrity is necessary to enter into perfect communion with God therefore "the term purgatory does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence", where Christ "removes ... the remnants of imperfection". ​

​

1. As we have seen in the previous two catecheses, on the basis of the definitive option for or against God, the human being finds he faces one of these alternatives: either to live with the Lord in eternal beatitude, or to remain far from his presence. ​

​

For those who find themselves in a condition of being open to God, but still imperfectly, the journey towards full beatitude requires a purification, which the faith of the Church illustrates in the doctrine of "Purgatory" (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1030-1032). ​

​

To share in divine life we must be totally purified ​

​

2. In Sacred Scripture, we can grasp certain elements that help us to understand the meaning of this doctrine, even if it is not formally described. They express the belief that we cannot approach God without undergoing some kind of purification. ​

​

According to Old Testament religious law, what is destined for God must be perfect. As a result, physical integrity is also specifically required for the realities which come into contact with God at the sacrificial level such as, for example, sacrificial animals (cf. Lv 22: 22) or at the institutional level, as in the case of priests or ministers of worship (cf. Lv 21: 17-23). Total dedication to the God of the Covenant, along the lines of the great teachings found in Deuteronomy (cf. 6: 5), and which must correspond to this physical integrity, is required of individuals and society as a whole (cf. 1 Kgs 8: 61). It is a matter of loving God with all one's being, with purity of heart and the witness of deeds (cf. ibid., 10: 12f.) ​

​

The need for integrity obviously becomes necessary after death, for entering into perfect and complete communion with God. Those who do not possess this integrity must undergo purification. This is suggested by a text of St Paul. The Apostle speaks of the value of each person's work which will be revealed on the day of judgement and says: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation [which is Christ] survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor 3: 14-15). ​

​

3. At times, to reach a state of perfect integrity a person's intercession or mediation is needed. For example, Moses obtains pardon for the people with a prayer in which he recalls the saving work done by God in the past, and prays for God's fidelity to the oath made to his ancestors (cf. Ex 32: 30, 11-13). The figure of the Servant of the Lord, outlined in the Book of Isaiah, is also portrayed by his role of intercession and expiation for many; at the end of his suffering he "will see the light" and "will justify many", bearing their iniquities (cf. Is 52: 13-53, 12, especially vv. 53: 11). ​

​

Psalm 51 can be considered, according to the perspective of the Old Testament, as a synthesis of the process of reintegration: the sinner confesses and recognizes his guilt (v. 3), asking insistently to be purified or "cleansed" (vv. 2, 9, 10, 17) so as to proclaim the divine praise (v. 15).​

​

Purgatory is not a place but a condition of existence ​

​

4. In the New Testament Christ is presented as the intercessor who assumes the functions of high priest on the day of expiation (cf. Heb 5: 7; 7: 25). But in him the priesthood is presented in a new and definitive form. He enters the heavenly shrine once and for all, to intercede with God on our behalf (cf. Heb 9: 23-26, especially, v. 24). He is both priest and "victim of expiation" for the sins of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2: 2). ​

​

Jesus, as the great intercessor who atones for us, will fully reveal himself at the end of our life when he will express himself with the offer of mercy, but also with the inevitable judgement for those who refuse the Father's love and forgiveness​

. ​

This offer of mercy does not exclude the duty to present ourselves to God, pure and whole, rich in that love which Paul calls a "[bond] of perfect harmony" (Col 3: 14). ​

​

5. In following the Gospel exhortation to be perfect like the heavenly Father (cf. Mt 5: 48) during our earthly life, we are called to grow in love, to be sound and flawless before God the Father "at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints" (1 Thes 3: 12f.). Moreover, we are invited to "cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit" (2 Cor 7: 1; cf. 1 Jn 3: 3), because the encounter with God requires absolute purity. ​

​

Every trace of attachment to evil must be eliminated, every imperfection of the soul corrected. Purification must be complete, and indeed this is precisely what is meant by the Church's teaching on purgatory. The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ who removes from them the remnants of imperfection (cf. Ecumenical Council of Florence, Decretum pro Graecis: DS 1304; Ecumenical Council of Trent, Decretum de iustificatione: DS 1580; Decretum de purgatorio: DS 1820). ​

​

It is necessary to explain that the state of purification is not a prolungation of the earthly condition, almost as if after death one were given another possibility to change one's destiny. The Church's teaching in this regard is unequivocal and was reaffirmed by the Second Vatican Council which teaches: "Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed (cf. Heb 9: 27), we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth' (Mt 22: 13 and 25: 30)" (Lumen gentium, n. 48). ​

​

6. One last important aspect which the Church's tradition has always pointed out should be reproposed today: the dimension of "communio". Those, in fact, who find themselves in the state of purification are united both with the blessed who already enjoy the fullness of eternal life, and with us on this earth on our way towards the Father's house (cf. CCC, n. 1032). ​

​

Just as in their earthly life believers are united in the one Mystical Body, so after death those who live in a state of purification experience the same ecclesial solidarity which works through prayer, prayers for suffrage and love for their other brothers and sisters in the faith. Purification is lived in the essential bond created between those who live in this world and those who enjoy eternal beatitude." Pope Benedict, L'Osservatore Romano, Weekly Edition in English, Purgatory: 11/18 August, 7​

Catholics believe that purgatory and heaven are "states of being", more precisely a state of being perfected, It is a state just like your present state of being human in a physical existence. Purgatory is but one such state, heaven is another.

JosephT

Joe
I'm not trying to be mean etc. but rather blunt and to the point. You wrote considerable about purgatory but no reference to it in scripture. Yes some scriptures were cited but had no relation to the subject. For a doctrine so cardinal to your faith one would assume you could present reference for it in scripture, and yes, I believe in the absolute authority of the scriptures. The only Purgatory I'm aware of is about 60 miles from where I live. Its a ski resort. God bless.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVINIST

 

[turnorburn]

The doctrine of purgatory is/was practiced by pagans.. Gods word teaches no such doctrine..

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

 

[JosephT]

Joe
I'm not trying to be mean etc. but rather blunt and to the point. You wrote considerable about purgatory but no reference to it in scripture. Yes some scriptures were cited but had no relation to the subject. For a doctrine so cardinal to your faith one would assume you could present reference for it in scripture, and yes, I believe in the absolute authority of the scriptures. The only Purgatory I'm aware of is about 60 miles from where I live. Its a ski resort. God bless.

TO BE DEEP IN SCRIPTURE IS TO CEASE BEING CATHOLIC, PROTESTANT, JEW AND CALVINIST

That's your take based on private interpretations. Mine is quite different based on private interpretations guided by the Church and the Early Church Fathers. But, we don't see private interpretations in solo Scriptura, rather we see, "Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation." [2 Peter 1:20]. But, your assessment is that you know best. And Scripture says it and it alone is the sole authority, where? Is it based on your interpretation?

So, I hope you're prepared with everything profane, and vile washed away to perfection by a book. "There shall not enter into it any thing defiled, or that worketh abomination or maketh a lie, but they that are written in the book of life of the Lamb." [Apocalypse 21:27]. Every evil thought, word or deed committed since baptism must be removed before you entering heaven. Purgatory is a final grace offered for those who leave this world in need of further perfection. You are perfect, right?

JosephT

 

[WIP]

The topic of this thread is St. Mary. It is not purgatory. If you wish to discuss purgatory I request that you start a new thread.

I must also include a reminder that the conversation must remain friendly with the goal of building each other up and not tearing each other down. Calling out accusations against each other is not going to go well.

 

[stovebolts]

The topic of this thread is St. Mary. It is not purgatory. If you wish to discuss purgatory I request that you start a new thread.

I must also include a reminder that the conversation must remain friendly with the goal of building each other up and not tearing each other down. Calling out accusations against each other is not going to go well.

I agree and will add that if arguning to be right is the goal, we will start to ban offenders from the thread.
I suggest all involved read the Staff Expectations and our community message before proceeding.

 

[Walpole]

If the Mary in Mt. 27 and Mk. 15:40 was Mary's sister then she had two sons, James and Joseph. But Mary the mother of Jesus had four sons besides Jesus, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas (no relation to Judas Iscariot). So you have James the brother of Jesus Gal. 1:18 and James the son of Mary's sister. And then you have James and John, the sons of Zebedee and their mother.

Mary the Mother of Jesus is NEVER stated to have any other children. The James, Joseph, Simon and Judas of Mt. 27 and Mk 15 are the sons of Mary of Cleophas, as the Scripture states.

The point is there were other women besides Mary the mother of our Lord who named their sons James and Joseph.

I find this to be improbable that there are two different pairs of men named "James and Joseph" in one Gospel. It would be like arguing there are two different "Mary and Marthas" in one Gospel. Perhaps you can demonstrate by way of example of this occurring elsewhere?

 

[Walpole]

No, but what I'm saying is both of us might be arguing out of silence.

How about this. Do you believe Simon (Peter) and Andrew were blood brothers?

I do believe Simon Peter and Andrew were at least immediate (agnate) siblings since a father is named.

 

[ezra]

and they wonder why this post has went south

 

[Walpole]

People who knew Jesus when he was growing up knew his mother and his father and his brothers and his sisters. Mt. 13:55 Why would they name Mary's sister's sons his brothers? You say, brother(s) had a much wider meaning back then. Was James the brother of John? So brother means brother most of the time except in this case the people who knew Jesus didn't mean brothers.

Your error stems from forcing a modern Westernized concept of a family unit (i.e. a nuclear family) onto an ancient Hebrew / Semitic (tribal) culture. The ancient Hebrews did not view family in this manner. Thus, you skew the text by applying modern concepts to ancient cultures, thereby incorrectly interpreting those passages by doing so through the lens of a modern nuclear family.

Luke 2:7
And she gave birth to her first-born son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths, and laid him in a manger, because there was no place for them in the inn.

"Her first born" suggests she had other children.

First born was a title given at birth, not after subsequent maternities (cf. Exodus 13:1-2).

The Bible says Joseph did not have marital relations with Mary until after Jesus was born. Knew her not.
Matthew 1:25
but knew her not until she had borne a son; and he called his name Jesus.

Matthew 15:6
So, for the sake of your tradition, you have made void the word of God.

Once again, St. Matthew's teaching is only concerned with the events up until the Nativity. His narrative is not implying anything about Joseph's alleged sexual activity after the Nativity. St. Matthew would have written 'until after' if he had wanted to do so, to avoid the obvious ambiguity. Matthew 1:25 is about Jesus' identity as the Messiah, not Joseph's sex life.

 

[Walpole]

The doctrine of purgatory is/was practiced by pagans.. Gods word teaches no such doctrine..

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

Do you realize you are calling the Jews pagans with this assertion?

 

[stovebolts]

Walpole ,
I'm going to ask you kindly to respect the views of others in the same way I am asking others to respect your views.

I will not have this or any other thread locked. However, further outbursts will cause an immediate ban from this thread.

If this continues with additional threads, the offenders will be removed from the Theology forum all together.

Keep pushing it, and members accounts will get perminantly banned.

I'm not perfect, but I am trying to be an example to build one another up. I don't always live up to that expectation, so I understand others will fail to live up to it as well. As a result, I try to extend Grace, which I am doing now.

Bottom line, we all need to practice self control and always focus on unity. I understand this is hard, but nobody ever said being a Christian was easy.

 

[WIP]

Mary the Mother of Jesus is NEVER stated to have any other children. The James, Joseph, Simon and Judas of Mt. 27 and Mk 15 are the sons of Mary of Cleophas, as the Scripture states.

Please provide the Scripture reference to where this is stated.

 

[WIP]

I do believe Simon Peter and Andrew were at least immediate (agnate) siblings since a father is named.

But you deny it when a mother is named (i.e., Mary).