Submissive women

[reba]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church

The other thread on female silence in the church has left me wanting to see some view points of others.

Women are to be silent in the assembly/ church
is that zero speaking as in do not say hello etc?
if that is not your view how do you, scripturally, justify any speaking

For me to go home and ask my husband not possible he is not a christian or should i do it anyway and then rely trust on what he says.. if not why not scripturally speaking..

I have no problem being in submission to my husband it is the Godly thing to do. (been married 48 years now).. I have been blessed with a Godly family to learn from and submit to...
I do not believe women should be pastors.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

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[Classik]

Silence? To me silence means: Women should not control men. It doesn't mean they shouldn't be active in the things of God. They should be part of the leadership, give suggestions, remedy situations if they have any, contribute money, preach to the congregation. They should not control the men.


There are female pastors and I think God ordained them.

 

[Classik]

And when the husband doesn't have the solution but the woman does, the woman should keep silent?

 

[Sparkey]

My thought about "submission" is that it isn't gender specific. Now, that is not to say that Adam wasn't created first, nor do we want to say that things should not be done in order, but the nature of serving one another, of considering the needs of others and loving others as we love ourselves, denying ourselves and following after Christ is at the very core of submission.

1 Peter Chapter 5
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all [of you] be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle [you]. To him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. - (1Pe 5:1-11 KJV)

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that [is] unprofitable for you. - (Hbr 13:17 KJV)

1 Peter Chapter 2 (11-15, 17-20)
Dearly beloved, I beseech [you] as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul; Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

... [17] Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. Servants, [be] subject to [your] masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory [is it], if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer [for it], ye take it patiently, this [is] acceptable with God.
_______________________________________________

Clearly, the subject of submission isn't "for women only". In fact, the entire church suffers when one member fails their duty to the Head, Christ Jesus.

 

[Classik]

I'm glad you have changed your avatar back.

 

[Danus]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church

The other thread on female silence in the church has left me wanting to see some view points of others.

Women are to be silent in the assembly/ church
is that zero speaking as in do not say hello etc?
if that is not your view how do you, scripturally, justify any speaking

For me to go home and ask my husband not possible he is not a christian or should i do it anyway and then rely trust on what he says.. if not why not scripturally speaking..

I have no problem being in submission to my husband it is the Godly thing to do. (been married 48 years now).. I have been blessed with a Godly family to learn from and submit to...
I do not believe women should be pastors.

Tit 2:3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Tit 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

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Here is my take. If a woman is a gifted teacher of the word, she should speak and not be silent.

The verses you have there in 1 Corinthians, to me, speak of respect and of respecting the culture of the day in regard to the church. There are plenty of verses where Paul even says that women can and should speak and teach.

This whole thing about women submitting to her husband, is a sticky thing in our Godless culture today, but even in the church. I think that a good woman wants, and deserves, to submit to a Godly man.

A man can't expect a woman to just submit to him if he does not submit to Christ. Unfortunately I think we live in a time where Men are not responsible. Too many fathers and husbands are absent, abusive or destructive to the fabric of their relationships. Not all. Some, and too many.

We have far more children today who are growing up fatherless and many of them even have a dad right there at home. It's no wonder we have girls having babies out of wedlock, or in their teens. Boys running off doing their thing.

We can blame the Godless culture, but the real problem starts with men not submitting to their God, and then they complain that they aren't respected at home, by their kids or their woman.

The shame of a woman being a pastor is a shame on men. It's like when I see my neighbors wife mowing the lawn. I hate that. That lazy jerk is inside watching TV and his wife has had it with the lawn so she mows it. ........This is a true analogy. You can ask Mike, I'm a lawn freak!

A man should be lead by Christ and a woman wants to submit to the authority of that kind of man, because she respects him for leading her with the love of Christ. It's not that she does not have a relationship with Christ also, she does, but when that man loves her like Christ loves the church, then she is his helpmate through life and not just someone forced into a situation because he says so. It's the same with the church.....and the yard. My wife could not cut the grass if her life depended on it. That's my job, and my responsibility whether I like it or not.

 

[Classik]

Oh Danus, Brilliantly put. What do I get you for? or ?

That is good
Private jet

 

[Tina]

1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church

What about unmarried women ?

Based on this passage, are we to assume that ...



1. only married women are part of that church assembly

2. only married women are to keep mouth shut till they go home to consult their husbands

3. single women may speak in church

4. single women are not even part of that church assembly

5. there are single women in that church and they are also not allowed to utter one word and not allowed to ask and learn anything




These are 5 assumptions we can make from that passage.


Let's see who can solve this mind boggling riddle concerning this mystery surrounding women !

 

[reba]

The assumption would be she is under her father. Notice i said father not Father.

The more i know/see/hear of folks who PUSH this issue the more controlling for the power of control is see.
Jesus lead by example He treated women well beyond the norm of the day...

The voice of Sandi Patty not heard in the assembly? The God given talent she has.

 

[Sparkey]

The discussion about women being silent best shows the perils of trying to establish doctrine based on a single scripture without looking at the whole word of God. Placing too much emphasis on a single verse can lead to legalism.

 

[handy]

Over the years, I've dealt with this subject on a personal level from three different perspectives: As a single adult woman, as a married woman, but married to a husband whose spiritual knowledge was very limited, and now to a husband who has grown immensely spiritually.

For single women, really for women in general, I think the key is to recognize and be in submission to the male authority in the church.

I don't believe that women should hold the position of pastor...and, when it comes to church leadership, I think the Presbyterians have it as close to the early church structure as it's going to get...the church is led by elders of whom the pastor is but one. I don't think women should be elders or pastors. I believe these authoritative roles are to be filled by godly men.

But, smart elders, when recognizing that they have a gifted woman in their congregation, shouldn't hesitate to make full use of the gifts God gives her. This was very much the way it was at the OPC church I attended for years...the women were not in leadership positions...but, the elders of the church often called upon the women to exercise any gifts they had, up to and including giving messages and teaching, just under the headship and authority of the elders. When I went to Ireland, the elders wanted me to give the message the Sunday evening after I got back. Yep, yours truly, a single (at the time) woman, behind the pulpit speaking. Now, I did meet with the Pastor and the other teaching elder and went over what I was going to share before hand. They had full editing of my message (although they didn't change anything.)

I'm fairly gifted as a public speaker. I'm horrible at face to face small talk with anyone I don't know very well, and I'm a wallflower at parties and social functions, but I can write and speak publically quite well. Over the years, I've been called upon to give testimonies (like the trip to Ireland), to share a specific bible study I've done, and to read Scriptures for the congregation. All done under the authority and submission to the male leaders of the churches involved. Even in the "male dominated" LCMS, the pastor has asked me, during the Sunday school hour, to share certain insights I've shared with him with the other adults. I do so, as a matter of fact, wouldn't it be violating the principle of submission, if I refused?

I think this works out the biblical mandates beautifully. Women can exercise their God given gifts to the edification of the church, and yet the male authority is still recognized.

As for "ask their husbands at home"...that's all fine and dandy if a woman is married to a godly man. For the first years of our marriage though, Steve, while not an "ungodly" husband, certainly didn't know much about the Bible. As a matter of fact, it worked the opposite in our household...after church, Steve asked me to explain to him the things that were being said. I, his helpmeet, helped him to understand the things of Scripture more clearly, and also encouraged him to seek knowledge from the pastors and other godly men of the congregation.

Even though Steve wasn't as understanding of Scriptures as I was, I still recognized that I have the God-given duty to submit to him. Even when I felt in my own heart that he was leading the wrong way. This came clearly to a head when he wanted us to join the ELCA, a church which ordains women ministers and was getting ready to open ordination for gays and lesbians. Many in the ELCA didn't believe that they would ever take that step, but I knew that it was only a matter of time. Even though joining the ELCA was the last thing I wanted to do, I did submit to Steve in the matter and we joined.

I'm glad I did, because God used that time to really cement in Steve the importance of following the Scriptures. It kind of took that time "in the wilderness" to help Steve recognize certain things. After the ELCA voted to ordain gays and lesbians, Steve immediately started to look for a new church for us. This was when we joined up with the LCMS, which has been a perfect fit for our family.

I don't think that all women are under the authority of all men, nor should all women submit to all men. For instance, I don't feel that I'm under any particular authority of Mike, or Danus, or Vic, or Carlos, or Webb. None of these men are my husband, nor are they elders or leaders of my church. And, outside of the church, I do believe that women can hold authoritative offices if so gifted. We see the biblical example of that with Deborah, a judge of Israel.

But, within the family and within the family of God (the church), I think it best that we stick with the Scriptures and follow the God ordained roles in these matters.

my

 

[Webers_Home]

.
I'm not usually a stickler for context; but I think this is one time I have to make exception to my own rule.

1Cor 13:34-35 is relative to Paul's instructions regarding tongues and prophecy. In other words: Christian women are not permitted to do either one of those two things in church when there are Christian men present; and that would have to include home Bible studies too since the Lord said that where two or three are gathered together in his name; he is there in the midst.

Now; I should point out that the restrictions imposed upon Christian women in 1Cor 13:34-35 weren't Paul's idea: they are the Lord's wishes.

†. 1Cor 14:37 . . If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

The acid test of one's devotion to Christ is compliance with his wishes.

†. John 14:15 . . If you love me, you will comply with what I command.

†. John 14:21 . .Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.

†. John 14:23-24 . . If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching . . He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

†. John 15:14 . .You are my friends if you do as I wish.

So then, when Christian women defy 1Cor 13:34-35, they are only giving themselves away as no friend of Christ.

Note : tongues and prophecy are but two areas in a Christian church where Christian women are forbidden to tread. According to 1Tim 2:11-12, they are not permitted to conduct a Sunday school class when Christian men are present, nor to preach a sermon when Christian men are present; nor are they permitted to take part in managing a Christian church; viz: Christian women are not permitted to be a pastor or a deacon, nor any other managerial capacity that regulates the affairs of Christian men; including, but not limited to, treasurer, choir director, trustee, heads of adult Sunday school departments, and/or members of church boards.

And again: when Christian women defy 1Tim 2:11-12, they are only giving themselves away as no friend of Christ.

How many no-friends of Christ am I talking about? Lots.

†. Mtt 7:22-23 . . Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Master, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you. Depart from me, you that work iniquity.

FAQ : why are Christian women so limited in a Christian church?

Answer : for two very practical reasons. (1) men have the primogeniture, and (2) women are particularly susceptible to demonic influence. In other words; once the Devil gets control of the Christian women in a Christian church, he can then easily get control of the Christian men because it is the nature of males to be stupid with females: just sheep to the slaughter.

Cliff
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[handy]

The discussion about women being silent best shows the perils of trying to establish doctrine based on a single scripture without looking at the whole word of God. Placing too much emphasis on a single verse can lead to legalism.

I agree, Sparrowhawke. Too often, this is a result of following the letter of the law as opposed to the spirit of the law.

We live in the world and the world changes often. The bible was written over the course of many centuries and many social changes happened from the time of Noah's disembarking to Paul's sermon on Mar's Hill. Even more social changes have taken place since then.

Following the letter of the law can create a lot of problems, because the letter was written in a certain place and time. But, by understanding and following the spirit of the law, following the Spirit of the commandments...then we can be sure to follow God's desires and will, without falling into legalism and becoming either self-righteous or ineffective.

I think a good example of this would be the head-coverings mentioned in 1 Corinthians 11. Some take this and follow the letter of the law, and demand that women wear head-coverings in church. And, I know many women who do so, including my mom.

However, the spirit of that particular passage is male authority and the need for women to submit to it. The head-covering was a symbol of that authority in that place and time. The world has changed a lot here in the West concerning head-coverings. I think now that women wearing head-coverings and especially men demanding that they do, do not bring forth the idea of godly women as much as it does the Taliban and Muslims and truly evil suppression and domination of women. If something hinders the gospel instead of promoting it, it should be discarded. In Corinth, during Paul's time, head-coverings promoted the gospel message. In the West, today, they hinder it...

 

[handy]

FAQ : why are Christian women so limited in a Christian church?

Answer : for two very practical reasons. (1) men have the primogeniture, and (2) women are particularly susceptible to demonic influence. In other words; once the Devil gets control of the women in church, he can then easily get control of the men becasue men are stupid with women: just sheep to the slaughter.

Cliff

I can't say that I agreed with everything you said, Cliff, but I do agree with this.

I have found it to be true that the churches that embrace women authority and pastors, are also the churches that are the most susceptible to Satanic influence and just flat out lies. The ELCA is a good case in point.

This is given as the reason why women are not to be in authority positions in the church...as Paul said, it was Eve who was deceived, not Adam. Adam disobeyed, but he knew darn well what he was doing, and therefore caused the death of all. But, Eve was deceived and I think it still runs true that women are indeed more susceptible to deception than men are. Not on individual bases, but in general.

 

[Classik]

If women can't be pastors then they can be evangelists.

 

[Webers_Home]

**********

 

[handy]

If women can't be pastors then they can be evangelists.

Why not? I would consider myself an evangelist, although I haven't done a lot recently, being that wife and mom take up most of my time.

But, when I was single, I quite often evangelized, often going door to door in my community, sharing at the workplace and, when in college, on the campus. The whole point to the trip to Ireland was for evangelism.

Evangelism is for out in the world...pastor is an office within the church. All Christians should be evangelists, to a certain degree, sharing the gospel whenever they can...but it's true that some are gifted as evangelists and are called especially to that function.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

We see the biblical example of that with Deborah, a judge of Israel.

With all due respect for Deborah: she was neither a Christian nor was she a member of the body of Christ. Ergo: none of Christ's rules regulating Christian women in a Christian church applied to her. So if you're a Christian women looking to Deborah for a Christian role model; you're barking up the wrong tree.

Note : Deborah was a judge in Israel only because her country was so decadent at the time that there were no real men to take her place. So then, when you see either a church or a country where there's women in power, you can mark it down that you're looking at a church and/or a country who's spiritual condition is quite deplorable.

Cliff
/

 

[handy]

You cut my quote off in the wrong place, Cliff....

What I said was, " And, outside of the church, I do believe that women can hold authoritative offices if so gifted. We see the biblical example of that with Deborah, a judge of Israel."

Was Deborah a judge simply because "there were no real men to take her place"?

Is there some texts that state this?

Yes, the sons of Israel had again done evil in the sight of the Lord, but according to Judges 2:19, they did that whenever any of the judges died. They did the same after Othniel was judge, as well as after Shamgar was judge, after Deborah herself was judge, and after Gideon was judge...

I don't know of any Scripture that states that Deborah was a judge only because there was no man to be a judge at the time. I think people confuse Deborah's rebuke of Barak for refusing to go into battle without her for the reason why she was judge in the first place. It's not, it was the reason why the Lord gave the victory of the battle with Sisera to a woman.

 

[Classik]

Maybe I don't know my stance on this subject. If a woman wants to be a pastor do we discourage her? I don't think she's there to dominate over the men. She can be an assistant or whatever. Is it a sin to have female pastors?
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We don't have a female pastor in our church, I've not seen any. We had a pastor, Ann, a female, who pastored the children. I've not seen her for a century now. That doesn't mean she mounts the pulpit on sundays and begins preaching to the congregation. We could not have female pastors but there are some spiritual women who are usually called to preach at times in church.

Women usually take the lead during women's day, single sister's day etc. On such occasions women are allowed to preach.

There is no difference - the same God speaks through women. The only difference is, you hear a feminine voice talking.