Submissive women

[handy]

There isn't anything you said here that isn't equally applicable to men, Cliff.


Classik, you asked, "If a woman wants to be a pastor do we discourage her? I don't think she's there to dominate over the men. She can be an assistant or whatever. Is it a sin to have female pastors?"

I think it all depends upon how the individual church's hierarchy is structured. As I mentioned before, I think the Presbyterian church has the most biblical structure as far as church authority and hierarchy is concerned. But, not all churches follow that model.

I know that the Assemblies of God tend to have pastors and the pastor is the head of the church...with sometimes having assistant pastors below. The AofG I worked for in North Carolina had a head pastor, with a women's pastor, a youth pastor, and a children's pastor on staff as well. The youth pastor concerned himself the the teenagers and college age kids, the women's pastor led the women's ministries and bible studies, the children's pastor headed up the Sunday schools and Wednesday groups for kids...all were under the leadership of the head pastor.

I don't think this is necessarily the biblical model of church leadership, but it worked and it didn't violate the principle of women submitting to male authority.

Now, if a woman wants to be the head pastor of a church...or the only pastor...then yes, I do think we should discourage her. I really do.

I was member of a church with a woman pastor, and I still work for that church. And, I think it does something to the men. The men simply don't step up. The women run the place and the men just go along with it. I've seen godly men at work in other congregations, and I sort of cringe at the men of the church that I work for. I was so glad when we left, and my husband began to go to the church we go to now, that have godly men working within the church and being examples for him...his growth in the Lord has just exploded since we've started going there.

 

[Classik]

Thanks a lot for your reply, Dora

 

[Danus]

Now I'm curious as to what the deleted post where, but I assume they are of no value.

I think women who lead, when men won't or can't, do so by God. However, when men of God are available, and women submit to them, they too do so by God. In doing this they are not submitting to men, as much as they are submitting to God. That's a Godly woman.

 

[Classik]

And when men refuse to take their responsibilities seriously God raises stones, women. Justified? Or should women remain idle too?

 

[Danus]

And when men refuse to take their responsibilities seriously God raises stones, women. Justified? Or should women remain idle too?

Can you clarify your question?

 

[Classik]

Can't women do the pastorial thing (or lead)when men refuse to act or take required responsibilities?

In this case isn't it wise for a woman to exercise what she has inside?

 

[Danus]

Sure they can. The over arching message I believe God has is not to silence, or shut out, or treat women as second-class citizens. This is not an either or issue so much as it is an issue of spiritual leadership as necessary.

The idea is for men to follow God (Women to) but for women to respectfully submit to a Godly man's spiritual leadership.

There are times in my marriage where I am wrong, or I have failed in someway. My wife steps up, or takes over.

There was a time recently when we went to visit a dying neighbor. I had it all planed out. I wanted to pray for her, but when I got there and I saw her in that bed in the ICU, and all her relatives there. I broke down. All I could do was stand there. My wife knew this instinctively and she became the spokes person and spiritual leader at that moment. She was powerful and impressive.
I did not beat her down for speaking. I thanked her.

 

[Tina]

There was a time recently when we went to visit a dying neighbor. I had it all planed out. I wanted to pray for her, but when I got there and I saw her in that bed in the ICU, and all her relatives there. I broke down. All I could do was stand there. My wife knew this instinctively and she became the spokes person and spiritual leader at that moment. She was powerful and impressive.
I did not beat her down for speaking. I thanked her.

But this isn't a "church assembly" , is it ?

Well it could be ... if the church assembles in a hospital or any other place for that matter, it is still a "church assembly" , right ?


But of course, for some people who are determined to use that Paul's scriptures to silence women in church, no venue or no number of people is good enough for church assemblies except what they would like to think is suitable ......


Maybe this issue about "church assemblies" deserve another thread ....

 

[Danus]

But this isn't a "church assembly" , is it ?

Well it could be ... if the church assembles in a hospital or any other place for that matter, it is still a "church assembly" , right ?


But of course, for some people who are determined to use that Paul's scriptures to silence women in church, no venue or no number of people is good enough for church assemblies except what they would like to think is suitable ......


Maybe this issue about "church assemblies" deserve another thread ....

The thread is titled "Submissive women". The topic includes the church and to me that includes the home, or the relationship of men and women. The message I believe speaks to the whole.

 

[Classik]

There are some homes where the men are completely incompetent or not good enough. What's the purpose of marriage if not for couples to mutually complement or help each other?

In that case let's leave the position for the women....not that they will begin to belittle or disobey the husbands. No matter the level of her success she's under the husband, we know.


How about this obvious situation, Tina, Danus, etc

 

[Danus]

There are some homes where the men are completely incompetent or not good enough. What's the purpose of marriage if not for couples to mutually complement or help each other?

In that case let's leave the position for the women....not that they will begin to belittle or disobey the husbands. No matter the level of her success she's under the husband, we know.


How about this obvious situation, Tina, Danus, etc

That man should be called into account by his brothers. Unless that man is in some physical or mental state where he can not fulfill his duties as a godly man then he needs an intervention from other Godly men.

there are men in the church, who are abusive to their family, who have addictions, who have relations outside the marriage, or problems with things like porn, or who are just absent. Men of the church need to hold other men of the church accountable with love and understanding, but also some authority.

I had a friend who took his wife and son to Disney world. I asked how his son liked it and he said; " Ah he had a great time." What was his favorite ride? I asked. Then I found out that my friend never actually went to the park. He hung out in the condo, because he had business to take care of while on vacation. He let his wife take his son to the park, while he worked.

I called him out! This is a man who complains to me about his own father. I had an absent father like that as well.

I'm not perfect. I do stupid stuff to. I like to play poker and drink beer, and sometimes I hang out with a few rowdy guys who like to golf, play poker and drink beer too. I've come home later than I should, and I've seen my wife tapping her foot with a rolling pin in her hand, not because she wants to be in charge of me, or change me, but because she loves me, wants to respect me and wants me to be a leader. If I'm not going to live up to my responsibilities then I expect to be called out for it.

 

[Classik]

Thanks, Danus.

I'm glad there is a place called Heaven where everyone is equal

 

[reba]

Danus, Thank you for your responses. I agree with most of what you say ! I also like to play poker... dont like beer

Your wife at the bed side of a friend..... We are generally the nurturers the mother thing i guess....

Wow you called a brother out ! Good for you. We are not to turn aside and not see. Often it takes guts to do the truly manly thing and more guts to do the Godly manly thing....

 

[jasoncran]

That man should be called into account by his brothers. Unless that man is in some physical or mental state where he can not fulfill his duties as a godly man then he needs an intervention from other Godly men.

there are men in the church, who are abusive to their family, who have addictions, who have relations outside the marriage, or problems with things like porn, or who are just absent. Men of the church need to hold other men of the church accountable with love and understanding, but also some authority.

I had a friend who took his wife and son to Disney world. I asked how his son liked it and he said; " Ah he had a great time." What was his favorite ride? I asked. Then I found out that my friend never actually went to the park. He hung out in the condo, because he had business to take care of while on vacation. He let his wife take his son to the park, while he worked.

I called him out! This is a man who complains to me about his own father. I had an absent father like that as well.

I'm not perfect. I do stupid stuff to. I like to play poker and drink beer, and sometimes I hang out with a few rowdy guys who like to golf, play poker and drink beer too. I've come home later than I should, and I've seen my wife tapping her foot with a rolling pin in her hand, not because she wants to be in charge of me, or change me, but because she loves me, wants to respect me and wants me to be a leader. If I'm not going to live up to my responsibilities then I expect to be called out for it.

boys cry out for a male figure. i have spent more time with nathan in his time here then his dad. that said, porn robs the wife of her dues. i hate it. satan is a liar

 

[childeye]

Interesting thread going here. Personally, I take Paul's words about a woman being submissive to her husband with a grain of salt. There are sometimes cirumstances that might require a woman to defy her husband, otherwise I think most women desire a man worthy of submitting to. And I think most men desire to be worthy of being submitted to rather than desiring a woman to submit to. Scripture also says there is no male or female in Christ. While I don't think the woman should ultimately define the man, they do compliment each other, for they appear to approach a central Truth about themselves from opposite perspectives. The devil is working both ends against the middle.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Interesting thread going here. Personally, I take Paul's words about a woman being submissive to her husband with a grain of salt. There are sometimes cirumstances that might require a woman to defy her husband...

"Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord." (Col. 3:18 NIV1984)

...I think most women desire a man worthy of submitting to.

But, sadly, as long as he's doing what she wants him to do. I see this waaaay too often.

And I think most men desire to be worthy of being submitted to rather than desiring a woman to submit to. Scripture also says there is no male or female in Christ.

True, nonetheless, but the same person who said this also teaches us the hierarchy of authority that exists:

3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor. 11:3 NIV1984)

I often wonder if women thought about what it would be like if a man treated Christ, his head, the way some women treat their husbands? Is Christ to be in submission to a man the way some women think their husbands ought to be submitting to them? Some women feel they don't have to be in authoritative submission to their husbands when it's uncomfortable to do so.

 

[childeye]

"Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord." (Col. 3:18 NIV1984)



But, sadly, as long as he's doing what she wants him to do. I see this waaaay too often.



True, nonetheless, but the same person who said this also teaches us the hierarchy of authority that exists:

3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God." (1 Cor. 11:3 NIV1984)

I often wonder if women thought about what it would be like if a man treated Christ, his head, the way some women treat their husbands? Is Christ to be in submission to a man the way some women think their husbands ought to be submitting to them? Some women feel they don't have to be in authoritative submission to their husbands when it's uncomfortable to do so.

I read you loud and clear. You are right that the man is the head or should be, and I have said no less. But Christ did become the servant for man, and submitted to the cross, becoming sin so that we might become the righteousness of God. That is even why he is the head of the body.

 

[reba]

A partial quote here...

I often wonder if women thought about what it would be like if a man treated Christ, his head, the way some women treat their husbands? Is Christ to be in submission to a man the way some women think their husbands ought to be submitting to them? Some women feel they don't have to be in authoritative submission to their husbands when it's uncomfortable to do so.

Can you relate a bit more thought to those who have a unsaved spouse....

 

[handy]

It's very tempting for some women to use "as is fitting in the Lord" or "we are to obey God before man" as an excuse to not submit to their husbands.

Naturally, there are some things a husband might desire to do that it would be best for his helpmeet to refuse to go along with. But, unless one is married to an evil man, these situations probably don't crop up all that often.

I know when my husband wanted to go to the ELCA, it was tempting for me to think, "This is an occaison where I should not submit and refuse to go". However, I was blessed to have a very wise Christian woman, a woman about 15 years older than me, and one who was used to having a less than godly man as a husband, tell me how important submission would be in this area. God used her to show me that He wanted me to submit to Steve in this. It was hard, but I did it...and boy, how God used that experience to work mightily in Steve's heart!

This same woman also counseled another woman in our group who wanted to defy her non-Christian husband and take her kids to church Sunday morning, even though he wanted Sunday to remain as family time as that was the only day he had off when the kids were home. My wise friend told her, "God doesn't command you to go to church on Sunday, He does command you to submit to your husband."

One thing that I think all of us who were a part of that bible study group learned was how much God can use a wife's submissiveness to change a husband's heart. Wives often make the mistake of thinking, since he's not doing this, or he's not doing it "right", as his helpmeet, I'd better just take over.

This might sound belittling to husbands, and believe me, I don't mean it to be so...but, just as mother will undermine and actually weaken her children by doing everything for them, so a wife will undermine her husband and eventually either weaken him, or frustrate and anger him, by trying to "take over".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are right that the man is the head or should be, and I have said no less. But Christ did become the servant for man, and submitted to the cross...

I don't know who said it first, but this says it well: The wife submits to her husband's lead. The husband submits to his wife's need. Christ is the man's example of how to submit to the need of his wife, caring for her as he would his own body.