Supporting Our Churchs

[Elijah674]

Hi again:

Surely you do 'see' Abe supporting God's work with tithe of his mint in Heb. 7:15 on? + verse 7:2

You say that Christ God not changing is in error on my part?? I do agree that people ‘eat’ about whatever they think that a ‘prayer’ over will do the trick. (note the last verse about ones prayers?! Can God be believed by anyone with His WORD there?)

But how about stuff that is known today even, to be very bad for us? Even the things that we would not dare to eat? And God says.. all unclean animals, birds fish and the like. And pork has long been known to be such. That brings to mind about our heavenly diet even!







Isa. 66
[15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
[17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, [[shall be consumed together, saith the LORD]].

.... (and time/wise is noted!)



[22] For as the [[new heavens and the new earth,]] which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.


Isa. 59
[1] Behold, the LORDS hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
[2] But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.



--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, then Elijah674, YOU know what to do, don't you?

 

[for_his_glory]

1 Timothy 5:17-18; Deuteronomy 25:4; Leviticus 19:13; 1 Corinthians 9:9; 1 Corinthians 9:14

The ox represents our Pastor/Teacher and if we do not financially support them than they will have to seek employment outside of their calling to support themselves and their family and this will take them away from their full attention to the needs of the flock they are intrusted with.

Finances are also needed to maintain the building and help with the continued works of Matthew 25:31-40. This is the very reason that we on the board voted to close the doors of our 100 member Church as people were not giving in offerings and the Pastor was footing all the bills of the Church and helping others financially neglecting those things of his own household and that should have not been so for him to do.

Our Pastor very seldom ever taught on giving as he was concerned more about a persons soul and not his own bank account like others Pastors as you see them living large, but yet the congregation so poor. We closed the doors and the Pastor started a home Bible study group for those who wanted to continue with the Church, but eventually people just quit coming for their own reasons and the study group dwindled down to just about six of us.

It was not the Pastors fault as he is very knowledgeable in the word being led by the Holy Spirit as it was the fault of the congregation not being faithful givers and without the faithful givers it muzzles the ox.

 

[Elijah674]

1 Timothy 5:17-18; Deuteronomy 25:4; Leviticus 19:13; 1 Corinthians 9:9; 1 Corinthians 9:14

The ox represents our Pastor/Teacher and if we do not financially support them than they will have to seek employment outside of their calling to support themselves and their family and this will take them away from their full attention to the needs of the flock they are intrusted with.

Finances are also needed to maintain the building and help with the continued works of Matthew 25:31-40. This is the very reason that we on the board voted to close the doors of our 100 member Church as people were not giving in offerings and the Pastor was footing all the bills of the Church and helping others financially neglecting those things of his own household and that should have not been so for him to do.

Our Pastor very seldom ever taught on giving as he was concerned more about a persons soul and not his own bank account like others Pastors as you see them living large, but yet the congregation so poor. We closed the doors and the Pastor started a home Bible study group for those who wanted to continue with the Church, but eventually people just quit coming for their own reasons and the study group dwindled down to just about six of us.

It was not the Pastors fault as he is very knowledgeable in the word being led by the Holy Spirit as it was the fault of the congregation not being faithful givers and without the faithful givers it muzzles the ox.

Hi, good post.
Why not start up your own church 'house' of Worship & use the Lord's %10 + offerings as He directs? (Rom. 8:14) That way, you know that the arrangement is being done correctly. (yes, that includes His other believed & kept doctrines as well) And God say's that where two or three are gathered together in His Name that He WILL BE IN THE MIDST of them.

--Elijah

 

[reba]

1 Timothy 5:17-18; Deuteronomy 25:4; Leviticus 19:13; 1 Corinthians 9:9; 1 Corinthians 9:14

The ox represents our Pastor/Teacher and if we do not financially support them than they will have to seek employment outside of their calling to support themselves and their family and this will take them away from their full attention to the needs of the flock they are intrusted with.

Finances are also needed to maintain the building and help with the continued works of Matthew 25:31-40. This is the very reason that we on the board voted to close the doors of our 100 member Church as people were not giving in offerings and the Pastor was footing all the bills of the Church and helping others financially neglecting those things of his own household and that should have not been so for him to do.

Our Pastor very seldom ever taught on giving as he was concerned more about a persons soul and not his own bank account like others Pastors as you see them living large, but yet the congregation so poor. We closed the doors and the Pastor started a home Bible study group for those who wanted to continue with the Church, but eventually people just quit coming for their own reasons and the study group dwindled down to just about six of us.

It was not the Pastors fault as he is very knowledgeable in the word being led by the Holy Spirit as it was the fault of the congregation not being faithful givers and without the faithful givers it muzzles the ox.

It was not the Pastors fault as he is very knowledgeable
Our Pastor very seldom ever taught on giving //

Seems a double statement..

Pastor was footing all the bills of the Church and helping others financially neglecting those things of his own household and that should have not been so for him to do.

Having known a Pastor like the above quote some folks just make my blood boil...

Some folks get the idea that because he is about the Lords work the Lord should take care of him... : When was the last time any of us saw the tree God planted that grew $$$ as leaves? Best try looking at the end of our arms....

 

[Jethro Bodine]

When was the last time any of us saw the tree God planted that grew $$$ as leaves? Best try looking at the end of our arms....

Oh ye of little faith. Learn the lesson of the fig tree:

As soon as its twigs get tender and its denominations of twenties and hundreds come out, you know that prosperity is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

 

[reba]

I thought maybe you meant this one...

Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
Mar 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

 

[Elijah674]

Oh ye of little faith. Learn the lesson of the fig tree:

As soon as its twigs get tender and its denominations of twenties and hundreds come out, you know that prosperity is near. Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.

Just an 'opinion' from my reading the last couple posts, what is it that is being 'supported' by these posts, Christ's Church or are we seeing the posting ones being belittled?

If one wants toROB (Mal. 3:8-9) GOD & not support HiS CHURCH, just say so?? that is your free privalige And stay off of the posting ones back/side with cute 2 Cor. 4:2's craftiness??

2 Cor.
[2] But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, (????) nor handling the word of God deceitfully; ....'

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

1 Timothy 5:17-18; Deuteronomy 25:4; Leviticus 19:13; 1 Corinthians 9:9; 1 Corinthians 9:14

The ox represents our Pastor/Teacher and if we do not financially support them than they will have to seek employment outside of their calling to support themselves and their family and this will take them away from their full attention to the needs of the flock they are intrusted with.

Finances are also needed to maintain the building and help with the continued works of Matthew 25:31-40. This is the very reason that we on the board voted to close the doors of our 100 member Church as people were not giving in offerings and the Pastor was footing all the bills of the Church and helping others financially neglecting those things of his own household and that should have not been so for him to do.

Our Pastor very seldom ever taught on giving as he was concerned more about a persons soul and not his own bank account like others Pastors as you see them living large, but yet the congregation so poor. We closed the doors and the Pastor started a home Bible study group for those who wanted to continue with the Church, but eventually people just quit coming for their own reasons and the study group dwindled down to just about six of us.

It was not the Pastors fault as he is very knowledgeable in the word being led by the Holy Spirit as it was the fault of the congregation not being faithful givers and without the faithful givers it muzzles the ox.

[1] Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
[2] If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
[3] Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
[4] Have we not power to eat and to drink?
[5] Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
[6] Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
[7] Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
[8] Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
[9] For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
[10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
[11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
[12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
[13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the alter are partakers with the alter?
[14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
[15] But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
[16] For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
[17] For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Just an 'opinion' from my reading the last couple posts, what is it that is being 'supported' by these posts, Christ's Church or are we seeing the posting ones being belittled?

I was responding to what Reba said ("When was the last time any of us saw the tree God planted that grew $$$ as leaves?.") with a little twist of prosperity gospel scriptural interpretation of my own..."chortle, chortle, chortle" It had nothing to do with belittling anyone or anything in this thread. It doesn't even have anything to do with the OP.

If one wants toROB (Mal. 3:8-9) GOD & not support HiS CHURCH, just say so??

Who in this thread is somehow saying it's not necessary to support the church that feeds you? I don't recall anyone suggesting that. If there is maybe you can show us that post.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I thought maybe you meant this one...

Mar 11:13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
Mar 11:14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

I started with that one, but I couldn't make it say what I wanted as easily as the one I did use.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"I feel that there's legalism involved in forcing or making people feel obligated to tithe."

And that would be because there IS a "Legalism" accociated with most of "Tithing" theology. In the Assemblies of God, the common language now is "GOD'S tithe, and YOUR offering. Translation, you haven't "OFFERED" anything - until you met the 10% obligation boundary - which was God's money to begin with. When you've returned HIS money, then you can start giving your own. This would be difficult to demonstrate Biblically.

On the other hand the "Cowboy Churches" don't even take up an offering - there are little miniature "Church houses" at the back of the auditorium with slots in the roof, and you put in what you feel you should. And they seem to be financially O.K. doing it that way.

Bottom line -

If we do continue to "do church" in the fashion that it's universally done involving a FACILITY, then there has to BE "Money Coming in" to keep it going - PERIOD!!!

Our yearly budget (with 50 Members in suburban Dallas, TX) including Pastor's salary and living expenses, Mortgage on the building, plus A/C (a LOT of it in the summer), plus building maintenance, plus sound, plus Missionary giving (The AoG is a "Missionary society"), etc. Comes to about $120K a year for a congregation that's bumping 100 at present.

It doesn't take a "Rocket Scientist" to figure out that the percentage of folks who actually TITHE - is pretty low, and pentecostals are among the "Better givers".

The ca$h has to come from somewhere. Case closed.

 

[Elijah674]

"I feel that there's legalism involved in forcing or making people feel obligated to tithe."

And that would be because there IS a "Legalism" accociated with most of "Tithing" theology. In the Assemblies of God, the common language now is "GOD'S tithe, and YOUR offering. Translation, you haven't "OFFERED" anything - until you met the 10% obligation boundary - which was God's money to begin with. When you've returned HIS money, then you can start giving your own. This would be difficult to demonstrate Biblically.

On the other hand the "Cowboy Churches" don't even take up an offering - there are little miniature "Church houses" at the back of the auditorium with slots in the roof, and you put in what you feel you should. And they seem to be financially O.K. doing it that way.

Bottom line -

If we do continue to "do church" in the fashion that it's universally done involving a FACILITY, then there has to BE "Money Coming in" to keep it going - PERIOD!!!

Our yearly budget (with 50 Members in suburban Dallas, TX) including Pastor's salary and living expenses, Mortgage on the building, plus A/C (a LOT of it in the summer), plus building maintenance, plus sound, plus Missionary giving (The AoG is a "Missionary society"), etc. Comes to about $120K a year for a congregation that's bumping 100 at present.

It doesn't take a "Rocket Scientist" to figure out that the percentage of folks who actually TITHE - is pretty low, and pentecostals are among the "Better givers".

The ca$h has to come from somewhere. Case closed.

There post 70, what is the bottom/line here? The Lord's WAY, or NO way with the case closed???

The real bottom/line is that God REQUIRES YOU, All as in TOTAL & FULLNESS, not just giving back what IS ALREADY HIS! Of Mal. 4

Luke 9
[23] And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
[24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
[25] For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

And the RE: Supporting Our Churchs?? God had told the Requirement for that! And we look at forums to give us different advice??

--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There post 70, what is the bottom/line here? The Lord's WAY, or NO way with the case closed???

The real bottom/line is that God REQUIRES YOU, All as in TOTAL & FULLNESS, not just giving back what IS ALREADY HIS! Of Mal. 4

Luke 9
[23] And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
[24] For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
[25] For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

And the RE: Supporting Our Churchs?? God had told the Requirement for that! And we look at forums to give us different advice??

--Elijah

Did you know God instructed the Israelites to eat their own tithe two out of three years? How many churches are being obedient to that? But how many churches have twisted it to say all our tithe goes to the church? Most don't even keep a storehouse for part of that tithe.

The point is not that we don't have to support our local church. The point is the letter of the law of tithing is not our guideline for doing that. If it were we'd all have to make some changes...even the churches who are teaching and practicing tithing.

Food for thought, Elijah674.

 

[doozie]

I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread but I wanted to give my opinion. I am an Associate Pastor of a church. Our church receives tithes and offerings at every service and I personally see it as simply another form of worship, the giving of part of myself to God.

No one at out church receives a salary but we are not against it. We are just too small for it to be considered. The Senior Pastor and myself both work regular jobs (He in the school system and I in purchasing) and are fine with it.

If a church is large enough that it needs a full-time Pastor to devote 40hrs a week then that Pastor should receive a salary.


The "tithe" or 10% is an Old Testament principle and not binding to the Church. The church, according to Acts, gave whatever excess they had to those in need. Paul tells the church to give cheerfully and that is it, no limit. Most Christians use 10% simply as a rule of thumb (or should anyway). However, what matters is the condition of your heart when you give and not the amount. Remember Jesus' opinion of the widow's mite?

Tithing is part of the Law and we are not under the Law.

 

[Mike]

But how many churches have twisted it to say all our tithe goes to the church?

This is one thing that really gets my goat (I don't really have a goat.) And it's another reason that a church shouldn't be so focused on what you give. How do they know how much you give to the Lord? Should they know? I don't think so, because it's between the heart of the believer and the Lord.

I'm conscious of the financial needs of my church, and it's the first place I give because I believe in its ministry, but it's not the only place I do.

 

[Classik]

I haven't had a chance to read through the entire thread but I wanted to give my opinion. I am an Associate Pastor of a church. Our church receives tithes and offerings at every service and I personally see it as simply another form of worship, the giving of part of myself to God.

No one at out church receives a salary but we are not against it. We are just too small for it to be considered. The Senior Pastor and myself both work regular jobs (He in the school system and I in purchasing) and are fine with it.

If a church is large enough that it needs a full-time Pastor to devote 40hrs a week then that Pastor should receive a salary.


The "tithe" or 10% is an Old Testament principle and not binding to the Church. The church, according to Acts, gave whatever excess they had to those in need. Paul tells the church to give cheerfully and that is it, no limit. Most Christians use 10% simply as a rule of thumb (or should anyway). However, what matters is the condition of your heart when you give and not the amount. Remember Jesus' opinion of the widow's mite?

Tithing is part of the Law and we are not under the Law.

One of the brilliant reponses

 

[reba]

I was going to repeat Doozies post also Thanks Classik!


PK here Your post was said very well !

 

[WIP]

It was a doozie! :toofunny

I couldn't help myself. But it really was.

 

[Classik]

I was going to repeat Doozies post also Thanks Classik!


PK here Your post was said very well !

Thanks reba, the Winner
But PK means Penalty Kickunno