"Symbol of Christianity?"

[A-Christian]

groan: :-D

 

[turnorburn]

How about this, Babylon when the Lord returns to destroy it for all time, and the Anti Christ is thrown into hell.

 

[Imagican]

I think there is a world of difference between a symbol and an idol. One is simply a declaration to other folks of a certain mindset one has. I don't think that there is any difference between wearing a necklace with a cross or crucifix on it and wearing a sweatshirt with an American flag with "God Bless America" emblazoned across it or having a "fish" on the bumper of one's car.

For many, the cross even isn't that much of a symbol, as it is a popular form of jewelery. I don't know if you are old enough to remember peace symbols. When I was a kid a necklace with a peace symbol on it was very popular as jewelery. Most of my friends had them, and none of us little 7-10 year olds were radical hippies. I was surprised when my parents wouldn't let me get one, because of what the peace sysmbol represented to them. You see so many today who wear crosses, yet have no affiliation with Christianity. To them, the cross is like the peace symbol was to me when I was a kid, a popular form of jewelery.

I'm not saying that there are not some who do elevate crosses and crucifixes into iconic, even idolarty. If one actually genuflects before a cross, or prays and kisses it, then yes, one is straying into idolarty. Your point about the Bible is a good one. Some raise the physical bible to iconic status, rather than just recognizing that the ink, paper, and paste is nothing, it's the words contained within with which the Spirit brings us to life. Just because some are wrong and do place the ink, paper and paste upon a pedalstal, doesn't mean that we should stop printing bibles.

But for most folks, that simply isn't what wearing a cross is all about. It's just jewelery, that for some is a statement regarding who they are.

After 're-reading' this post, it is apparent that there 'may' need to BE some further discernment.

Handy, are you actually stating that 'just because' you and your little friends DIDN'T understand or REPRESENT the 'peace symbol' that it had ANY less significance in it's ACTUAL presence? You know, it has always been a 'given' that we ARE judged by the company we keep. Perhaps THAT is 'why' your parents denied you permission to own or wear the 'peace symbol'.

First of all, the 'peace symbol' was NOT 'invented' by the 'hippies'. The 'broken' cross predates the hippies by THOUSANDS of years.

Are you aware Handy, that symbols possess POWER? Just as the 'ark' contained POWER, so too do the 'tools' of Satan. They have POWER that is able to influence those that allow them such influence.

The 'Christian' cross is NO DIFFERENT. The PROBLEM that arises when one DOES come to an understanding of 'symbols' is that 'the cross' predates Christ by THOUSANDS of years. Used in MANY 'pagan' religions WAY before it was 'introduced' into Christianity.

WHO introduced the 'cross' and WHY? We have little information to go on but we DO know that it was UNHEARD of at the time of the apostles and very rare even AFTER them. Do you know WHY?

The Jews were well versed in the commandment AGAINST 'graven images'. ALL the apostles WERE Jews. And neither YOU nor anyone else could POSSIBLY convince me that these would DELIBERATELY go AGAINST what THEY KNEW as God's will.

Now, the Gentiles on the other hand, were WELL into 'graven images' concerning NOT ONLY religions, but this 'art' thing in general. We have the evidence of 'cave drawings', statues, temple art, etc........ dating back to the 'beginning' of mankind.

Not a 'leap' to ASSUME that the 'cross' so far as ornament or decoration was INSTITUTED by those that were already familiar and fond of such 'things'.

My point? JUST because it has been 'accepted' by MEN, does this NEGATE the commandment of God NOT TO DO IT? Has God's WILL changed for mankind? We ARE no longer under a covenant of LAW. But has what the LAW was given to TEACH changed in the LEAST? In other words, if it was WRONG to produce graven images at the time of Moses, is the PRINCIPLE any different NOW?

Now I KNOW that times have changed and people have changed and 'religion' has changed. But has GOD changed? And JUST BECUASE society, (the Chrisitian community in general), has learned to disregard that which was commanded, does it NEGATE what God offered?

Ignorance does NOT cause impotence. Not only in one that is displaying a 'symbol' such as a peace sign or a cross, but on those that 'witness' this other wearing such. And can you honestly say that there is a SINGLE person on this PLANET worthy of wearing a 'symbol' of Christ. That there is ONE among us that is WITHOUT sin? Here in lies the benevolent DANGER in using such symbols: For YOU or anyone else to place such a symbol around their necks and then go out and SIN is NOT different than taking communion WITHOUT one's HEART BEING RIGHT. We are told that in the past MANY DIED for this cause.

I have YET to meet the 'sinless' person. WAS Christ SINLESS? Then WHO among us is 'worthy' to 'PICK UP HIS CROSS'? Or even offer it as a symbol of our 'belief'? And to take it another step; What does one's 'belief' mean ANYWAY. For there are DRUG addicts, prostitues, whore mongers, theives, liars, murderers, child molesters, occultists, etc..........that STATE that their BELIEF is in Christ. But WITHOUT the EXAMPLE offered these are BUT WORDS with NO POWER to portay TRUTH.

Wouldn't showing LOVE and compassion for one's NEIGHBOR be MORE of a TRUE symbol of FOLLOWING Christ than a 'graven image'. For you have already openly admitted that there are CERTAINLY those that not only DON'T believe in Christ WEARING them. But what's WORSE, there are those out there that show an open HOSTILITY TOWARDS Christ WEARING them. Anti-Christs you might say. This IS the inherent danger of 'symbolism'. It HAS power but there is NO way for US, (mankind), to DISCERNT it's TRUTH.

Only God, the TRUE creator, is ABLE to create that which is HOLY. NOT a 'single one of us' is able to 'create' ANYTHING HOLY. And to DO SO, (or attempt to), is AGAINST the will of God. For in attempting to Do SO, we invariably are ATTEMPTING to BE the 'Creator'.

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

Wow, all the way back to early Jan. for a Handy quote. 8-)

The 'Christian' cross is NO DIFFERENT. The PROBLEM that arises when one DOES come to an understanding of 'symbols' is that 'the cross' predates Christ by THOUSANDS of years. Used in MANY 'pagan' religions WAY before it was 'introduced' into Christianity.

WHO introduced the 'cross' and WHY? We have little information to go on but we DO know that it was UNHEARD of at the time of the apostles and very rare even AFTER them. Do you know WHY?

The Apostles weren't aware of the preferred method of death by the Roman Empire? :-? Hmm... I'm certain they were!

My Master chose to lay down His life using this "preferred" method. That's all I see when looking at a Cross. I don't worship it or adore or adorn it; it's a constant reminder of that atoning blood sacrifice of Jesus for us; for me!

I see that image you call a symbol in many things. In telephone poles, in the way two branches of a tree intersect each other, in the way certain shadows are cast... and each and every time I think of what HE did for me. I could be staring out the window of a moving train, thinking of my work schedule and from the corner of my eye, see that Cross and my attention is drawn away from my schedule and drawn to Him instead.

I find nothing idolatrous about that, or this, found at and photographed at Ground Zero, NYC:

[attachment=0:e6f75]cross175.jpg[/attachment:e6f75]

 

[Imagican]

And Vic,

Perhaps you are 'right'. Perhaps you have come to a 'maturity' in Christ that YOU are able to deal with symbolism in 'such a manner'.

I still question the validity of 'graven images'. The commandment WAS for a 'purpose'. The Jews, who this 'law' was given to UNDERSTOOD it to mean NO GRAVEN IMAGES.

I find 'myself' in a position to recognize that I am NOT the 'deeply' devoted person that I would 'compare' to those that were God's chosen FIRST. These were certainly NOT expose to the myriad temptations of 'this time'. The 'less exposure, the LESS one IS tempted'. This is a 'given' to any that HAVE understanding, (don't get me wrong, temptation surely existed THEN as well as now, just NOT to the DEGREE that it is SO previlent today; OR ACCEPTED).

But you simply picked ONE of the aspects that I offered. How about the one concerning the 'holiness' that this symbol would entail IF 'truly' a symbol of RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ's offering. For Christ simply 'dying on a cross' is of NO significance UNLESS one 'lives FOR Chrsit'. Understand, I am NOT accusing. I know NOTHING about you other than our brief relationship here on the forum.

What if the 'cross' like the bread and blood ARE 'true symbols'? And what IF we are NOT 'worthy' of exhibiting EITHER behavior? The Bible TELLS us to take the bread and take the blood in rememberance. Yet is also tells us to 'beware' that our 'hearts' are RIGHT IF we do so and that many that have practiced this ritual with impure hearts have been, what would you call it, PUNISHED.

Would it be ANY different with this 'cross'? A 'physical' symbol attesting to the death and resserection of The Savior? When Christ TRULY 'lives' in ones heart, wouldn't the LOVE exhibited by said individual be MORE than ENOUGH of a 'symbol'? And wouldn't it be a 'disgrace' for one to wear a 'physical symbol' representing Christ's accomplishment IF they were UNABLE to live IN The Spirit CONSTANTLY?

Oh, and when we were told to 'bear our own crosses', this is NOT meant to be taken literal. For this means of execution, (fortunately), does not exist any longer. But what it means is to offer UP ourselves in the place of our brothers and sisters. To LOVE them EQUAL to or above ourselves. To offer up the SACRIFICE OF SELF for the 'sake of others'. Never was the 'wearing' of the 'symbol of the cross' taught by ANYONE until WAY AFTER the death and ressurection of The Savior.

So, perhaps YOU have come to a 'place' in your life that you ARE able to 'bear the cross of Christ'. But I can assure you that MOST that proclaim Christianity 'have not'.

And what a 'testimony' it would be for the 'sinner' to wear such an emblem EVEN when they commit their acts AGAINST 'the cross'. We were warned NOT to 'be' teachers UNLESS we were willing to accept the responsibility of condemnation for 'being wrong'. Would it really be ANY different with this 'wearing of such a symbol'? Wouldn't ANYONE wearing such a 'statement' be MORE liable to LIVE UP TO IT than those that do NOT exhibit such a VISUAL statement?

I mean it's one thing to 'pretend' to BE something', but it's quite another to STATE that one IS something that they may well NOT BE. Kind of like wearing a 'shriner's ring' and NOT BEING a 'shriner'. Or wearing a doctors uniform WIthout REALLY BEING a doctor. You know, like running around in a hospital DRESSED as a doctor, wearing a stethascope around one's neck JUST for decoration. The scary part is that there MAY WELL be those that 'think' you ARE a doctor. So, do you see my point in it's 'testimony' to 'wear' such a POTENT symbol? Were not talking about the rudiments of men here, we are talking about the HOLIEST oF THE HOLIES. If it was DEATH to touch the 'ark', what punishment must be in store for those that DO misrepresent Christ.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Hey guys, name me a SINGLE piece of 'religious art' that depicts THE TRUTH....

Christ's ascension into heaven:

 

[Free]

I still question the validity of 'graven images'. The commandment WAS for a 'purpose'. The Jews, who this 'law' was given to UNDERSTOOD it to mean NO GRAVEN IMAGES.

Graven images properly understood though.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

....Graven images properly understood though.

Correct. The original Hebrew word is in referrence to "idols". If the artwork does not represent false gods, then it does not fall under that commandment.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

and NEXT you'll be promoting 'South Park'?

MEC

Only if they repent and decide to go to confession. :D

 

[Imagican]

Hey guys, name me a SINGLE piece of 'religious art' that depicts THE TRUTH....

Christ's ascension into heaven:

You CAN'T be 'serious'?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

....Graven images properly understood though.

Correct. The original Hebrew word is in referrence to "idols". If the artwork does not represent false gods, then it does not fall under that commandment.

Catholic,

You offered a 'rendition' of Christ's ascention. Are you telling me that this is NOT a 'picture' of a 'false god'?

You would 'claim' that this IS a 'realistic portrayal' of it's TITLE?

Yet the 'creator' of it DID NOT witness this 'event'. It is NOTHING more than 'imagination'. Based on NOTHING other than a 'fleshly' understanding of his "HEART".

Now, IF coveteousness IS idolotry, isn't that EXACTLY what we offer when we 'produce', 'observe', or 'obtain' said 'symbols'? Doesn't this UTTERLY refute your above statement?

Regardless of what 'an organization' has TAUGHT you, haven't you offered NOTHING BUT the understanding which you HAVE been 'granted' by 'men'?

Since NO ONE KNOWS what Christ LOOKED like, to 'create an IMAGE' of Him and CALL it such, isn't that EXACTLY the 'act' of 'creating a FALSE god'. For those that argue this POINT insist that Christ IS God. Yet NO MAN has EVER 'seen' God. That MEANS that it is IMPOSSIBLE for US to create ANYTHING BUT 'false representations' of God in ANY form of 'symbolism'.

And the MOST dangerous part of NOT adhering to the commandment is that NOT ONLY does the 'disobeying' effect the INDIVIDUAL who 'abuses it', it is ABLE to effect SCORES of OTHERS who 'partake' in it's 'creation' and exhibition, (the COVETING of said symbol). And we have been TOLD that we are NOT only to REFRAIN from committing that which is AGAINST God, but NOT to take PLEASURE in the 'disobedience of OTHERS that do'.

Please NOTE: What I offer concerning such issues is SOLELY the understanding that has been 'granted' ME. I am in NO wise offering CONDEMNATION of ANY that 'choose' to follow WHATEVER they CHOOSE to follow. That is the RESPONSIBILITY of the INDIVIDUAL so far as 'obedience'. But we HAVE been COMMANDED to offer what we have been 'given' in understanding to the 'edification' or 'rebuke' of OTHERS. Forgive me if I feel COMPELED to follow what I am ABLE.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

....Graven images properly understood though.

Correct. The original Hebrew word is in referrence to "idols". If the artwork does not represent false gods, then it does not fall under that commandment.

OH, and let me offer THIS:

You are INCORRECT in your statement above. The Hebrews WERE ignorant FIRST, but were 'further instructed' in 'righteousness' in that THE ONLY 'symbolism' that we FIND in their 'anceint symbolism' ARE concerning those 'things' that WERE 'of God'. We find NO frivilous painting, sculpture, jewelry, etc, that indicates ANYTHING but an adherance TO the second commandment. The ONLY evidence we have that they created ANY 'righteous' sybolism is THAT which was DIRECTLY commaded BY GOD Himself, (hence, the constant ATTEMPT to offer that 'symbolism' is OK because of the 'ark' and such. Yet we KNOW through scripture that THESE iTEMS were NOT 'simply created through the WILL of man, but EXACT design was PLACED in the CREATOR of such, specifically COMMISSIONED BY GOD, FOR GOD).

So, what you offer above shows that you have NO conception of WHAT the ancient Hebrews UNDERSTOOD the 'commandment' TO BE. You have either inadvertantly or purposely offered that which is able to LEAD to false assumption. For a 'graven image' is NOT an 'idol' per se. It IS 'anything made by the hand of man that is a 'representation of' ANYTHING on earth, in Heaven, or in the sea. That pretty MUCH includes EVERYTHING that God has 'created'.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Catholic,

Yes Protestant,

You offered a 'rendition' of Christ's ascention. Are you telling me that this is NOT a 'picture' of a 'false god'?

Only if you think Jesus is a false God.

You would 'claim' that this IS a 'realistic portrayal' of it's TITLE?

That depends on what you mean by "realistic". Is it scientifically accurate? No, but neither is much of scripture. Truths can be portrayed in many ways. Is it realistic insofar as it depict the scripture verses which speak of Christ's ascension? Sure.

Yet the 'creator' of it DID NOT witness this 'event'. It is NOTHING more than 'imagination'. Based on NOTHING other than a 'fleshly' understanding of his "HEART".

People witnessed though, and described the event in writing. Writing is not the only way to convey ideas. Pictures can convey ideas anf thoughts too. (You lost me on the fleshy heart thing though.)

Now, IF coveteousness IS idolotry......

....which it is not, but go ahead anyway......

.....isn't that EXACTLY what we offer when we 'produce', 'observe', or 'obtain' said 'symbols'? Doesn't this UTTERLY refute your above statement?

Nope.

Regardless of what 'an organization' has TAUGHT you.....

...ah ah ah, be nice now......

.....haven't you offered NOTHING BUT the understanding which you HAVE been 'granted' by 'men'?

Well that is what you have been offering me, right? You are a man, and you have been offering us all your understanding. nThe difference is, I don't offer MY PERSONAL understanding: I offer the understanding of 2000 years of saints, theologians, and doctors of the Church. Not a bad bunch there.

Since NO ONE KNOWS what Christ LOOKED like, to 'create an IMAGE' of Him and CALL it such, isn't that EXACTLY the 'act' of 'creating a FALSE god'. For those that argue this POINT insist that Christ IS God. Yet NO MAN has EVER 'seen' God....

Wrong again. That's Old Testament thinking. When God became man, man saw God. (Hey, that was pretty good.)

....That MEANS that it is IMPOSSIBLE for US to create ANYTHING BUT 'false representations' of God in ANY form of 'symbolism'.

But that is what a symbol is: Something that "represents" something, but not the actual thing it represents. You sort of goofed that one up.

....And the MOST dangerous part of NOT adhering to the commandment is that NOT ONLY does the 'disobeying' effect the INDIVIDUAL who 'abuses it', it is ABLE to effect SCORES of OTHERS who 'partake' in it's 'creation' and exhibition, (the COVETING of said symbol). And we have been TOLD that we are NOT only to REFRAIN from committing that which is AGAINST God, but NOT to take PLEASURE in the 'disobedience of OTHERS that do'.

Oh stop it. There you go looking for the boogyman in artwork again.

Please NOTE: What I offer concerning such issues is SOLELY the understanding that has been 'granted' ME......

By who?

...I am in NO wise offering CONDEMNATION of ANY that 'choose' to follow WHATEVER they CHOOSE to follow....

Sure you are. You are basically calling us idolatoers and commandment breakers. If that ain't condemnation, I don't know what is.

.... That is the RESPONSIBILITY of the INDIVIDUAL so far as 'obedience'. But we HAVE been COMMANDED to offer what we have been 'given' in understanding to the 'edification' or 'rebuke' of OTHERS. Forgive me if I feel COMPELED to follow what I am ABLE. MEC

I forgive you.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...You are INCORRECT in your statement above... ..For a 'graven image' is NOT an 'idol' per se....

That is what the original Hebrew word in the original texts refers to.

...It IS 'anything made by the hand of man that is a 'representation of' ANYTHING on earth, in Heaven, or in the sea. That pretty MUCH includes EVERYTHING that God has 'created'. MEC

So you're saying a painting of a duck or a horse is a graven image and forbidden by the commandcments? Good Lord man, you've gone 'round the bend.

 

[Imagican]

Catholic,

Yes Protestant,

You offered a 'rendition' of Christ's ascention. Are you telling me that this is NOT a 'picture' of a 'false god'?

Only if you think Jesus is a false God.

I don't 'think', but KNOW that there is NO ONE that is ABLE to portray an ACCURATE image of Christ.

You would 'claim' that this IS a 'realistic portrayal' of it's TITLE?

That depends on what you mean by "realistic". Is it scientifically accurate? No, but neither is much of scripture. Truths can be portrayed in many ways. Is it realistic insofar as it depict the scripture verses which speak of Christ's ascension? Sure.

So, your 'imagination' IS 'truth'? or 'someone elses'?

Yet the 'creator' of it DID NOT witness this 'event'. It is NOTHING more than 'imagination'. Based on NOTHING other than a 'fleshly' understanding of his "HEART".

People witnessed though, and described the event in writing. Writing is not the only way to convey ideas. Pictures can convey ideas anf thoughts too. (You lost me on the fleshy heart thing though.)

Now, IF coveteousness IS idolotry......

....which it is not, but go ahead anyway......

I guess you NOT ONLY 'missed this' in The Word, but didn't even catch it in one of my 'earlier posts'. But to CLARIFY that which you DENY:

Col.3
[1] If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
[2] Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.[3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
[4] When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
[6] For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
[7] In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
[8] But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
[11] Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
[12] Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
[13] Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
[14] And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
[15] And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
[16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
[17] And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
[18] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
[19] Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.
[20] Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.
[21] Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.
[22] Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:
[23] And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
[24] Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
[25] But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

.....isn't that EXACTLY what we offer when we 'produce', 'observe', or 'obtain' said 'symbols'? Doesn't this UTTERLY refute your above statement?

Nope.

Care to amend this reply now?

Regardless of what 'an organization' has TAUGHT you.....

...ah ah ah, be nice now......

Wow, you take offense to my accusation of being LED by 'others', then OPENLY admit that YOU ARE. Let us 'make up our mind'. Either you BELIEVE what you HAVE been 'taught' by an 'organization', or you HAVEN'T. Which is it? And if I have offer NOTHING but the 'truth', then WHY would you consider my statement ANYTHING BUT 'nice'?

.....haven't you offered NOTHING BUT the understanding which you HAVE been 'granted' by 'men'?

Well that is what you have been offering me, right? You are a man, and you have been offering us all your understanding. nThe difference is, I don't offer MY PERSONAL understanding: I offer the understanding of 2000 years of saints, theologians, and doctors of the Church. Not a bad bunch there.

EXACTLY what I 'stated'. But you forgot to add: 'apostles', and 'Bishops', or even Popes.

Since NO ONE KNOWS what Christ LOOKED like, to 'create an IMAGE' of Him and CALL it such, isn't that EXACTLY the 'act' of 'creating a FALSE god'. For those that argue this POINT insist that Christ IS God. Yet NO MAN has EVER 'seen' God....

Wrong again. That's Old Testament thinking. When God became man, man saw God. (Hey, that was pretty good.)

Come now, let us NOT offer 'false teaching'. I have quoted NUMEROUS statements offered in the NT that outright STATE that NO man has EVER 'seen' God. Do you DENY The Word of God?

....That MEANS that it is IMPOSSIBLE for US to create ANYTHING BUT 'false representations' of God in ANY form of 'symbolism'.

But that is what a symbol is: Something that "represents" something, but not the actual thing it represents. You sort of goofed that one up.

No, to the contrary my friend. I have simply offered what we have been 'commanded' NOT to DO. Nothing more, nothing less.

You know, Fran is 'kinda tough', but Crusader, you make this TOO EASY.

Now, to PROVE my point: YOU TELL US, what IS the, (or JUST 'a'), TRUE 'symbol' OF God?

....And the MOST dangerous part of NOT adhering to the commandment is that NOT ONLY does the 'disobeying' effect the INDIVIDUAL who 'abuses it', it is ABLE to effect SCORES of OTHERS who 'partake' in it's 'creation' and exhibition, (the COVETING of said symbol). And we have been TOLD that we are NOT only to REFRAIN from committing that which is AGAINST God, but NOT to take PLEASURE in the 'disobedience of OTHERS that do'.

Oh stop it. There you go looking for the boogyman in artwork again.

You may 'certainly refer' to EVIL as; The Boogie man. Making light of that 'old man' is CERTAINLY ONE tool that he uses to discredit a 'belief' that he exists. Kind of like 'painting him' with horns and a pitch fork. Cartoon 'character'. A childish 'symbol' that bears NO resemblance to TRUTH.

Please NOTE: What I offer concerning such issues is SOLELY the understanding that has been 'granted' ME......

By who?

Through scripture AND the guidance OF The Holy Spirit.

...I am in NO wise offering CONDEMNATION of ANY that 'choose' to follow WHATEVER they CHOOSE to follow....

Sure you are. You are basically calling us idolatoers and commandment breakers. If that ain't condemnation, I don't know what is.

I am SIMPLY offering what HAS been GIVEN us in 'understanding'. IF that convicts your HEART of 'being an idoloter or ANYTHING ELSE that is AGAINST God, you CANNOT fault ME for the offering. IF you DO NOT 'believe' what I offer, then it should have NO EFFECT on you whatsoever.

.... That is the RESPONSIBILITY of the INDIVIDUAL so far as 'obedience'. But we HAVE been COMMANDED to offer what we have been 'given' in understanding to the 'edification' or 'rebuke' of OTHERS. Forgive me if I feel COMPELED to follow what I am ABLE. MEC

I forgive you.

That is a 'step' in the correct direction. For there have been 'times' in the past when to speak what I speak would NOT only be 'unforgiven' by those that DIDN'T understand it, but would have been considered grounds for torture and murder.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

You beat me down. Too much to type. "UNCLE"

(but you're still wrong :D .)

 

[Imagican]

Well then, let's make it REAL 'easy' on you:

Col. 3:

[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

What does this scripture MEAN to 'you'?

And to make it EVEN 'easier', here's what it means to ME:

Either this scripture is OUTRIGHT stating that ALL the items listed ARE idolotry, or it is SPECIFICALLY offering that 'covetousness'; IS. Either way, it offers MOST CERTAINLY and without denial that 'at the LEAST; 'covetousness' IS.

Now, 'what' exactly do YOU believe it to BE offering?

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Well then, let's make it REAL 'easy' on you:
Col. 3:
[5] Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
What does this scripture MEAN to 'you'?

I don't know, and I am humble enough to admit so. I DO know that you cannot just interpret one verse while disconnecting it from the whole of the Bible. I will tell you what the Catechism says about idolotry:

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42 God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3 ... 1.htm#2112

And to make it EVEN 'easier', here's what it means to ME:

Either this scripture is OUTRIGHT stating that ALL the items listed ARE idolotry, or it is SPECIFICALLY offering that 'covetousness'; IS. Either way, it offers MOST CERTAINLY and without denial that 'at the LEAST; 'covetousness' IS.
Now, 'what' exactly do YOU believe it to BE offering?
MEC

Well, they are certainly bad things. I'm sure it is offering that much. But idolotry is idolotry, and covetousness is covetousness.

 

[Imagican]

Welll now, don't we have a dilima of sorts?

I have offered scripture that YOU say "I" NOR yourself are able to discern. Yet the scripture is NOT vague in the least. It outright STATES that; 'to covet' IS to commit idolotry.

That would certainly place you in a position of DENIAL of what is offered. And it becomes APPARENT that MUCH of what is accepted in MUCH of what is considered to BE 'Christianity' is TAINTED through SUCH misunderstanding.

Allow me to offer a 'bit' of clarification for those that have a 'desire' to KNOW the TRUTH:

We 'worship' THAT which we ADORE, (love). We have been TOLD that to LOVE this 'world' is to BE an 'enemy of God'. So, the REASON that 'to covet' IS 'idolotry' is SIMPLE; To 'covet' is to LUST. Another explanation of the 'principle of LUST' would be: TO DESIRE, (or LOVE), that which is NOT 'of God'. Marriage IS an 'institution' OFFERED us BY God. There is NOTHING 'wrong' with offering LOVE to our spouse or children. These ARE 'extensions' OF our FAMILY in God. But to LOVE our 'house' is an OBJECT that IS 'of this world'. God could BLESS us with the 'possession' of a 'house'. Nothing WRONG with us taking USE of 'this possession'. But when we offer UNDUE 'lust' for the SAKE Of 'possession', at THIS POINT, it becomes a 'love of the material', and hence, IDOLOTRY. We find ourselves offering UNDUE 'worship' to this possession.

It works the SAME WAY with ANYTHING that we allow to cause LUST in our lives. LUST is NOT able to be OFFERED to God. LUST IS OF THIS WORLD. TRUE 'worship' is ONLY to BE offered to GOD Himself. PERIOD. No Saints, No Mary, No ANYTHING other than God Himself.

Folks, Christ was ASKED, "How shall we PRAY". His answer stated NOTHING OTHER THAN, "Our Father". Not ONLY His Father, but OUR FATHER, (God). He TOO recognized that EVEN though He WAS The Son of God, Our PRAYERS are to be offered to GOD alone.

How often have EACH of us found ourselves TALKING to our 'material possessions'. Speaking INSIDE of 'what we are going to DO with them'. What we are going to DO to them. Speaking in our hearts of HOW PROUD we ARE OF THEM? How OTHERS are going to SEE US through our possessions? HOPING to IMPRESS others with our 'material wealth'? THAT IS WORSHIP of THIS WORLD and the 'things' IN IT. And THAT'S Why we were WARNED against it.

Is it WRONG to own a car? NO WAY. Is it wrong to own a NICE car? NO WAY. But, it's the IMPORATANCE we PLACE in such objects that MAKES it 'wrong' or 'OK'. When your 'car' becomes SO important in your life that a 'scratch' on it 'ruins your day', THEN YOU ARE OFFERING WORSHIP to this ITEM. It is JUST a 'thing' of this world. If you LOVE IT, you COVET IT, if you COVET IT, YOU WORSHIP IT.

i find it difficult to BELIEVE that this is NOT 'common knowledge' concerning WORSHIP. As I have stated BEFORE: I had NO 'pre-conceived' NOTIONS upon 'coming to Christ'. I spent over a YEAR 'living with the LORD' BEFORE discussing such issues with 'other believers'. Imagine my 'surprise' when I come to a 'Christian Forum' and offer this understanding and EVERYONE 'denies it'??????? Dumbfounded is what I was and continue to BE. That there are SO many that have bought into SO much of what their churches TEACH that is CONTRARY to what God has offered us.

The WORD is there, do you BELIEVE it? The Spirit is there, WILL you FOLLOW it? It's NOT THAT complex folks. But there CANNOT BE 'denial'. Either of The Word, The Spirit, or the CONVICTION offered through EITHER. In order TO understand you MUST 'let go' of what this WORLD would teach you and RELY on The Spirit to GUIDE us in understanding. There is NO OTHER WAY to 'follow in TRUTH'.

A pastor, (Bishop), 'caught up' in his LUSTS for this world CANNOT 'teach' you the TRUTH. IMPOSSIBLE. For to offer such words would be to OFFER condemnation of his VERY behavior. So, WHO you gonna trust? A 'man' that is LIMITED in understanding by HIS OWN LUSTS, or The Word of God offered to us through The Bible and The Holy Spirit? How can a 'man' TAKE from the congregation for HIS OWN PERSONAL LUSTS and then TEACH the TRUTH concerning these LUSTS?

It is offered that HE WHO WOULD DESIRE THE BEST PLACE IN HEAVEN WILL BE HE WHO SERVES HIS BROTHERS AND SISTERS THE MOST. And that is NOT simply THROUGH 'words'. That IS through EVERY THING that God has ENABLED him to OFFER. Yet we are ABLE to readily OBSERVE that the pastors of MANY churches live BETTER 'materially' than MOST of their CONGREGATIONS. And MOST that have 'bought into' this 'churchology' BELIEVE that it is RIGHTEOUSLY SO. And it COULDN'T be FURTHER from the TRUTH.

You CAN ACCUSE me of 'whatever' you CHOOSE. But the TRUTH is the TRUTH and it IS possible to discern it TROUGH the Word and guidance OF The Holy Spirit. It's REALLY 'that simple'.

Let us SEE if these words are ABLE to be 'digested'.............

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Welll now, don't we have a dilima of sorts?

I have offered scripture that YOU say "I" NOR yourself are able to discern. Yet the scripture is NOT vague in the least. It outright STATES that; 'to covet' IS to commit idolotry.....

Man, I just ate a bunch of Chinese food. I'm to full to work with all that. How do you type so much.

Upon further thinking, I can see IN ONE SENSE how covetness is idolotry: If you "covet" or "desire" something so much that it becomes more important to you than God. Because thats what idolotry is: Placing something above God in importance.

Fair enough?