Tackling the Hard Questions

[journeyman]

Yes, exactly. An offense such as blasphemy.

Of course.

So it was unlawful, contrary to Gods' law, to put Jesus to death. Agreed?

Again, how is this relevant? Look at the context:

Act 4:24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them,
...
Act 4:27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,
Act 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. (ESV)

This passage is clearly showing that Jesus's crucifixion was planned and predestined to take place by God.

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. (ESV)

The whole thing--being "delivered up" to be "crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men"--was "according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God."

As a man, our Savior taught that men should not condemn, as men are all sinners. He is sinless and has the right to condemn, but led by example. The church was being persecuted. Peter pointed them to Jesus, who suffered "wrongfully",

Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1Pet.2:/--23

Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21,23

if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jn.12:47

But he also said,

For judgement I cameinto the world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. Jn.9:39

In fact all judgment is committed to him as Witness. God is testifying.

But how and what made it possible?

Only by his mercy, Isa.53:7 says he opened not his mouth at the sin they inflicted on him. Had Jesus opened his mouth in judgment against them,they would have been executed.

God's holiness demands payment for sin.

No he doesn't ,

if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. Mk.12:7, Hos.6:6

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psa.51:16-17

Free:
If God simply let them go without payment for breaking the law, then God is unjust.

No, that's called mercy, which God expects us to be from then on,
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. Jas.2:13

For the joy....(of showing the love, mercy, patience of God).... that was set before Christ, he endured the cross (sin against himself...sin against out Maker. Heb.12:2

Free:
Either every sinner will bear the punishment of their sin,

every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Deu.24:16

Free:
in hell for eternity,

Torment that goes on for all eternity is heresy. Another subject for another thread.
His suffering, fighting to show sinners the love of God, in the face of immense adversity, atoned, reconciled, brought us into a right relationship with him,

In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Heb.12:4

Christ shed his blood striving against their sin to show them how much he loves us,

love ye your enemies.....and ye shall be the children of the Highest: Lk.6:35

Free:
That is the only way to get go free, to have our sins erased.

God is happy to forgive anyone who desires forgivness. Gods' character is love. He's easily intreated. 1Cor.13

Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
…
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (ESV)

[/QUOTE]
None of this scripture means that sinners are forgiven, reconciled, jjustified, etc. without repenting.

I don't see how any of those verses state that the Messiah will teach everyone to not be afraid. How would that be relevant to his death?

It's not revelant to his death. It's revelant to our deaths and I the verses I cited him teaching his disciples not to fear any persecution that they would be exposed to. Because like Jesus they wouldn't be suffering from the just wrath of God. They would face the unjust wrath of man... as Jesus did.

 

[journeyman]

Yes, but as Paul points out:

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But more than that, look at that statement in context:

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—
Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (ESV)

Even Jesus said that the default position is eternity apart from God, that only faith in his name would save:

Joh 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. (ESV)

We clearly see that God, the Father, sent the Son into the world "in order that the world might be saved through him." How was that done? What made that possible?

Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? (ESV)

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
…
2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (ESV)

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (ESV)

Every passage you've cited means we're saved because of Gods free grace, Gods' free mercy. Free grace and free mercy means Jesus chose mot to knock the stupid heads off people who abused him.

Okay. What do these have to do with the discussion, with Christ's death?

No substitutions.

But what makes repentance and baptism effective for the forgiveness of sins?

Sincerity.
Repentance:
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: 2Cor.7:10

Baptism
if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom.8:13

John the baptist preached repentance and baptism, but not only was no one saved by that, he said Jesus was "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1:29). Why would John say that? What did Jesus's death accomplish if all that was needed was repentance and baptism?

Jesus chastized the religious leaders for not believing John. Jesus said those who believed John would enter heaven.
The OT saints were saved by faith in the promise of his coming. The law and prophets were until John.

 

[journeyman]

Posts are getting too long

 

[Free]

So it was unlawful, contrary to Gods' law, to put Jesus to death. Agreed?

It was God's plan that they put Jesus to death out of ignorance and sin.

As a man, our Savior taught that men should not condemn, as men are all sinners. He is sinless and has the right to condemn, but led by example. The church was being persecuted. Peter pointed them to Jesus, who suffered "wrongfully",

Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1Pet.2:/--23

Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21,23

if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. Jn.12:47

But he also said,

For judgement I cameinto the world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. Jn.9:39

In fact all judgment is committed to him as Witness. God is testifying.

Jesus taught many things, as did Peter, but none of them taught that there is forgiveness apart from the spilled blood of Christ.

Only by his mercy, Isa.53:7 says he opened not his mouth at the sin they inflicted on him. Had Jesus opened his mouth in judgment against them,they would have been executed.

And, yet, Jerusalem was razed because they rejected and crucified Christ, so their sin wasn't "erased;" judgement came later. And, they will each personally still face the final judgement for rejecting him.

Mercy doesn't mean God simply erases or removes sin or the punishment for sin. Look at the context of Isaiah 53:7:

Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
...
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. (ESV)

There simply is no escaping the fact that what makes forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God possible, is the death and resurrection of Jesus, according to the plan, purpose, and will of God. You cannot take one verse from that passage and say it was "Only by his mercy," as though his mercy exists in a vacuum.

Also, consider that Jesus is referred to as the Lamb at least 31 times in the NT, including in this verse:

Rev 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (ESV)

It is only through the blood of Christ that one's robes can be made white, that is, that one can find pardon for their sins and be made pure.

Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
...
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

It is worthwhile to read that entire passage and understand that the entire OT sacrificial system points to the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[Free]

No he doesn't ,

if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. Mk.12:7, Hos.6:6

For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. Psa.51:16-17

He does. Those verses don't mean that he doesn't require sacrifice. Just look at the passages from Isaiah 53 and Heb 9, and then look at Leviticus:

Lev 1:4 He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
Lev 1:5 Then he shall kill the bull before the LORD, and Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and throw the blood against the sides of the altar that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting. (ESV)

Lev 4:1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the LORD's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,
Lev 4:3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people, then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the LORD for a sin offering.
Lev 4:4 He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the LORD and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the LORD.
Lev 4:5 And the anointed priest shall take some of the blood of the bull and bring it into the tent of meeting,
Lev 4:6 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle part of the blood seven times before the LORD in front of the veil of the sanctuary.
Lev 4:7 And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense before the LORD that is in the tent of meeting, and all the rest of the blood of the bull he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting.
...
Lev 4:13 “If the whole congregation of Israel sins unintentionally and the thing is hidden from the eyes of the assembly, and they do any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and they realize their guilt,
Lev 4:14 when the sin which they have committed becomes known, the assembly shall offer a bull from the herd for a sin offering and bring it in front of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands on the head of the bull before the LORD, and the bull shall be killed before the LORD.
Lev 4:16 Then the anointed priest shall bring some of the blood of the bull into the tent of meeting,
Lev 4:17 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD in front of the veil.
Lev 4:18 And he shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is in the tent of meeting before the LORD, and the rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting.
Lev 4:19 And all its fat he shall take from it and burn on the altar.
Lev 4:20 Thus shall he do with the bull. As he did with the bull of the sin offering, so shall he do with this. And the priest shall make atonement for them, and they shall be forgiven.
Lev 4:21 And he shall carry the bull outside the camp and burn it up as he burned the first bull; it is the sin offering for the assembly.
Lev 4:22 “When a leader sins, doing unintentionally any one of all the things that by the commandments of the LORD his God ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:23 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring as his offering a goat, a male without blemish,
Lev 4:24 and shall lay his hand on the head of the goat and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD; it is a sin offering.
Lev 4:25 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out the rest of its blood at the base of the altar of burnt offering.
Lev 4:26 And all its fat he shall burn on the altar, like the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings. So the priest shall make atonement for him for his sin, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 4:27 “If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally in doing any one of the things that by the LORD's commandments ought not to be done, and realizes his guilt,
Lev 4:28 or the sin which he has committed is made known to him, he shall bring for his offering a goat, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill the sin offering in the place of burnt offering.
Lev 4:30 And the priest shall take some of its blood with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:31 And all its fat he shall remove, as the fat is removed from the peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar for a pleasing aroma to the LORD. And the priest shall make atonement for him, and he shall be forgiven.
Lev 4:32 “If he brings a lamb as his offering for a sin offering, he shall bring a female without blemish
Lev 4:33 and lay his hand on the head of the sin offering and kill it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
Lev 4:34 Then the priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering with his finger and put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering and pour out all the rest of its blood at the base of the altar.
Lev 4:35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the LORD's food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven. (ESV)

God certainly did require burnt offerings and sacrifice, so clearly the verses you have appealed to aren't quite saying what you want them to say.

No, that's called mercy, which God expects us to be from then on,
For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. Jas.2:13

For the joy....(of showing the love, mercy, patience of God).... that was set before Christ, he endured the cross (sin against himself...sin against out Maker. Heb.12:2

If there was no actual payment for sin, by blood, then God would be unjust. The whole basis of God's forgiveness towards those who believe in Christ is through the shed blood of Christ. Without that shed blood, there is no forgiveness of sins.

every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Deu.24:16

That's not in the context of atonement or forgiveness of sins; that's simply the physical punishment for one's own sin. If Christ's blood doesn't atone for us, if he did not bear our iniquities, as the Bible states several times, then our own deaths must atone for our own sins, and the cross becomes utterly pointless.

Torment that goes on for all eternity is heresy. Another subject for another thread.

It's biblical, but, yes, that is for another thread.

His suffering, fighting to show sinners the love of God, in the face of immense adversity, atoned, reconciled, brought us into a right relationship with him,

In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Heb.12:4

Christ shed his blood striving against their sin to show them how much he loves us,

love ye your enemies.....and ye shall be the children of the Highest: Lk.6:35

God is happy to forgive anyone who desires forgivness. Gods' character is love. He's easily intreated. 1Cor.13

Yes, Christ shows how much he loves us, how much God loves us, through his death and resurrection, but it is precisely because his death was the cost of our sin. God can forgive only on the basis of Christ's substitutionary atonement.

None of this scripture means that sinners are forgiven, reconciled, jjustified, etc. without repenting.

Of course repenting is necessary, that is not the point. The point is, repentance is futile if Jesus's blood didn't atone for our sins.

 

[Free]

Every passage you've cited means we're saved because of Gods free grace, Gods' free mercy. Free grace and free mercy means Jesus chose mot to knock the stupid heads off people who abused him.

Yes, God's grace is free, but forgiveness of our sins, propitiation for our sins, is based solely on the death of Christ; he freely took the punishment for our sins, so we could become righteous.

No substitutions.

Those are simply talking about physical punishment for sin, and do not have anything to do with making atonement for one's sins.

Sincerity.
Repentance:
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: 2Cor.7:10

Baptism
if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom.8:13

But this is begging the question. what I asked was: what makes repentance and baptism effective for the forgiveness of sins?

Also, what did Jesus's death accomplish if all that was needed was repentance and baptism? I have given numerous verses stating that Jesus's death was the basis of God's forgiveness towards us; that it was the fact that Jesus bore the punishment for our sins, which were laid upon him as the plan and will of God, by which we are saved.

Jesus said those who believed John would enter heaven.

Where, exactly, did Jesus say this?

The OT saints were saved by faith in the promise of his coming.

Where is this stated?

The law and prophets were until John.

And then what came after John?

 

[journeyman]

It was God's plan that they put Jesus to death out of ignorance and sin.

No it wasn't. It was Gods' plan for his Son to show love mercy, patience, etc. toward people who sinned against him

The Lord is.....longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.....account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation 2Pet.3:9,15

Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? Rom.2:4

Jesus taught many things, as did Peter, but none of them taught that there is forgiveness apart from the spilled blood of Christ.

Jesus spilled his blood, poured his life out fighting afainst their sins with love, mercy, patience, etc.

And, yet, Jerusalem was razed because they rejected and crucified Christ, so their sin wasn't "erased;" judgement came later. And, they will each personally still face the final judgement for rejecting him.

I meant for time he walked as an ordinary man. He forgave as though he himself needed forgiveness. He didn't need to be forgiven. He could have judged them immediately.

Of course the unrepentant were later destroyed. They always are.

Mercy doesn't mean God simply erases or removes sin or the punishment for sin. Look at the context of Isaiah 53:7:

Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities;

He was pierced because of their wickedness. Piercing him for no legitimate reason IS SIN. Crushing him contrary to the law is sin,

In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. Heb.12:4 (like Jesus did.)

upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,

No. Chastisement, correction that brings us peace is here,

no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. Heb.12:11

and with his wounds we are healed.

His wounds were the result of patiently enduring the wrongdoing of sinners,

I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus. Gal.6:17

Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

For the purpose of showing his kindness toward the unlovable, yes. For the purpose of punishing the Innocent in place of the guilty, no. God doesn't allow injustice.

Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.

Right. He could have opened his mouth in condemnation against them.
The idea that God didn't see the torture and killing of his Son as sinful is depraved.

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief;

Any Godly parent is grieved by the pain their children inflict on them.

There simply is no escaping the fact that what makes forgiveness of sins and reconciliation with God possible, is the death and resurrection of Jesus, according to the plan, purpose, and will of God. You cannot take one verse from that passage and say it was "Only by his mercy," as though his mercy exists in a vacuum.

Also, consider that Jesus is referred to as the Lamb at least 31 times in the NT, including in this verse:

Rev 7:14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (ESV)

It is only through the blood of Christ that one's robes can be made white, that is, that one can find pardon for their sins and be made pure.

Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
...
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Heb 9:23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25 Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own,
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

It is worthwhile to read that entire passage and understand that the entire OT sacrificial system points to the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

I never said we can be forgiven without Christs' sacrifice and I understand why the Israelites were ordered to confess their sins over the Lamb,

These things you have done, and I kept silent. You thought that I was altogether like you; But I will rebuke you, and set them in order before your eyes.
“Now consider this, you who forget God,
Lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver: Psa.50:21-22

 

[journeyman]

He does. Those verses don't mean that he doesn't require sacrifice. Just look at the passages from Isaiah 53 and Heb 9, and then look at Leviticus:

Not ever for the forgiveness of sin, without true repentance.

Lev 1:4 He shall lay his hand on the head of the burnt offering, and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

This is the burnt offering, where Abraham believes that God will raise his promised son from the dead (Gen.22:2, Heb.11:19)

Lev 1:5 Then he shall kill the bull before the LORD,

This is if the priest sinned.

and Aaron's sons the priests shall bring the blood and throw the blood against the sides of the altar that is at the entrance of the tent of meeting. (ESV)

This doesn't apply to The Eternal High Priest. Sinless.

Lev 4:1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If anyone sins unintentionally in any of the LORD's commandments about things not to be done, and does any one of them,
Lev 4:3 if it is the anointed priest who sins, thus bringing guilt on the people,

The Messiah didn't bring guilt on the people. Remember this as the rest applies only to human sinful high priests...ok?

then he shall offer for the sin that he has committed a bull from the herd without blemish to the LORD for a sin offering.

Now understand this. This earthly high priest is violating Gods' command....if he committed no sin. But Aaron was a sinner. So when Aaron sprinkles the bulls blood on the curtain, he's not thanking God for torturing his Son. Listen very carefully. He's sprinkling Christs' own blood on his flesh,

the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Heb.10:20

Aaron is confessing that he, as a sinning high priest, is no better in the sight of God, than those who tore the flesh off our dear Lords' back.
The bull symbolizes strength. I wouldn't have been strong enough not to turn those sinners into smoke....if that was my kid...but God affording more time to the undeserved didn't. Or if I was the kid and had the power to do it myself...I would...but Jesus had that power...and didn't.

Lev 4:4 He shall bring the bull to the entrance of the tent of meeting before the LORD and lay his hand on the head of the bull and kill the bull before the LORD.
Lev 4:5 And the anointed priest shall take some of the blood of the bull and bring it into the tent of meeting,
Lev 4:6 and the priest shall dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle part of the blood seven times before the LORD in front of the veil of the sanctuary.

See above.

Lev 4:7 And the priest shall put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense before the LORD that is in the tent of meeting,

Aaron's confessing how our Savior spilled his blood praying forgivness sinners. Ok?

Our King is One with our Father because he's also behind the Curtain in his Tabernacle...sitting on the Mercy Seat (The Throne Of God...where His Blood is on The Covenant... the agreement to obey the law... which sinners didn't...but at judgement day better hope they repented beforehand.

I've posted many OT scripture showing that God abhors injustice. It sickens him. And he says killing the innocent is sin.

And the NT shows us how our Father thought his Son should be treated.

They will reverence my son. Mt.21:37

Which is why our Father would later

miserably destroy those wicked men Mt.21:41

because what really happened was,

The stone which the builders rejected Mt.21:42

He's not the stone our Father rejected. Our Father rejecting his innocent Son isn't mercy. It's lunacy. It's hate for someone who's one with God. I can't believe I once believed that bs.
I'm not going through the rest if you can't see the sense in what I'm saying.

 

[journeyman]

Yes, God's grace is free, but forgiveness of our sins, propitiation for our sins, is based solely on the death of Christ; he freely took the punishment for our sins,

No. the law says he unjustly suffered for sins. Unjustly means according to the law it wasn't just(tice.)It was unlawful. It was against Gods' law to put Jesus to death.

so we could become righteous.

The righteous realize they've sinned against God and act accordingly.

Those are simply talking about physical punishment for sin, and do not have anything to do with making atonement for one's sins.

Real simple. Atonement, reconciliation with God is never made if the Peace offering God commanded isn't accepted. And to make peace, God put up more bs from sinners than I ever would have.

They were reminders of sin against God. We don't need them anymore, because we know God's not dead and he forgives us.

And again, if you can't see what I'm saying then there's no reason for us to talk about the rest.

 

[Johann!@#]

Hard question how can Joseph be the father of Jesus and the virgin birth be true?
Ty

Simple-Joseph was not the biological father of Jesus.

 

[Hawkins]

Why does God allow evil?

That ties to a wrong assumption made by humans. The role of planet earth is to allow evil to fully show up openly and to be destroyed once and for through the legal/lawful process known as the Final Judgment.

God's goal is to build an eternity we call Heaven. Heaven is like an aquarium with earth as its filtration system. So your question is rather why should all dirts remain in the filter. The answer is, because it secures the cleanness of the aquarium.

Humans, especially unbelievers, assume mistakenly that the filtration system should be as clean as the aquarium. That's why the question that why the filter is not clean.

The establishment of earth, after Adam and Eve kicked out of Eden, earth is not lying within God's current dwelling realm. God promised Noah not to destroy but to bear with it till the Judgment Day. However it's still a detestable realm to a sin-incompatible God. God doesn't build or actively maintain anything on such a sinful world. His sole job here is to save His sheep. His love for this world is shown through the salvation provided through Jesus Christ.

Earth is established as a wilderness with God's sheep scattered. Christians are told that we don't belong here, and don't love this world (in a material sense). In such a world which is lying outside of God's dwelling realm, it will decay to a hell eventually while the most evil and the most powerful will finally rule, who happens to be Satan. That's why Satan is referred to as the god of this world. Earth is a better place than hell simply because God's sheep are still here.

 

[Randy]

Hard question how can Joseph be the father of Jesus and the virgin birth be true?
Ty

Joseph was Jesus's step Father. Jesus is the Son of God.
While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, 42 “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”
“The son of David,” they replied.

43 He said to them, “How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him ‘Lord’? For he says,

44 “‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’
45 If then David calls him ‘Lord,’ how can he be his son?

Your Question should be How can Jesus be in David's Line?

By God's appointment.
God appointed His firstborn to the line of David. The Christ is forever and the most exalted King not David. This fulfils Gods promise to David, "I will establish his line forever"

Psalm 89
And I will appoint him to be my firstborn,
the most exalted of the kings of the earth.
28 I will maintain my love to him forever,
and my covenant with him will never fail.
29 I will establish his line forever,
his throne as long as the heavens endure.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Thanks for responding Hawkins. Your aquarium analogy was interesting. I have never heard of it before. Let's talk about something you wrote.

"The establishment of earth, after Adam and Eve kicked out of Eden, earth is not lying within God's current dwelling realm." Quote from Hawkins

Here are some verses to ponder about what you wrote my friend.

Jeremiah 23:23-24 Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.
Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
John 14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I believe God is everywhere as Jeremiah teaches.
I believe Jesus is with us all the time as Matthew states.
I believe the Holy Spirit lives with us, and in us as Jesus told us through John.
So for all three personalities of the one God to interact with me, they must be present with me. That just makes logical sense to me as I cannot leave this world yet to be with them somewhere else. Keep walking everybody.
May God bless,
Taz

 

[Consecrated Life]

Tac
Why does God allow evil?
They might replace evil with sin. But that's the general query. This is probably the most asked question for unbelievers.

For addressing inquiring "unbelievers" the answer is very straightforward from the believers perspective.
The difficult question for the believer however comes in answering the question:

" Why does God allow evil to fester, grow & reestablish itself in the earth a second time after He has returned ? "

To this question of God allowing evil a second time you will get a wide variety of answers and speculations from believers.
Despite the fact that we can all agree that there can only be one answer.

Psa 2:2-

Psa 2:6
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.......

Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

 

[Anaphora]

Proverbs chapter 5. The wicked destroy themselves. They wont repent and conform to God's standard.

Were talking about reprobates.
2 Peter 2:9 9:22
2 thessalonians 2:11
Romans chapter 1
Jeremiah chapter 6:30.
1 Corinthians 9:24
Hebrews 6:7
2 Timothy chapter 3.
Pride and arrogance.
Self gratification
Oppose the truth.
Unclean spirit
Manipulative
Habitual sinners
Counterfeit religion
Self righteous
Liars
Unfit for service
Corrupt.
No moral compas.
Contaminate God's word.
No spirtual growth.
No spirtual discernment.
Reject God's grace.
They have the mentality of satan. But reprobates are not all the same.

Children of light have holy spirit. They have spirtual growth. They have spirtual discernment. God's election dont have free will.

The reprobates have free will. I have more respect for big bird than this group.

We see the distinction between children of light and darkness.

Proverbs chapter 5. The wicked destroy themselves.

 

[Randy]

Evil exists because that's how God created man and woman and from these two the rest of sinful mankind was born that way.

6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west,
That there is none beside me.
I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Is 45:6–7.

God does bring peace and calamity. Which is the context of vs 7, "create evil", as the covenant had curses as well as blessings.
That's not the same with the wickedness found in the world in the hearts of Man. Nor does God tempt people to do evil but warns them not to for their sake in regard to judgments made.

Regarding King Josiah.
This is what the Lord says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. 17Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and aroused my anger by all the idols their hands have made, a my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.’ 18Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people—that they would become a curse b and be laid waste—and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I also have heard you, declares the Lord. 20Therefore I will gather you to your ancestors, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.’ ”

 

[one2question]

Because God wants a love-relationship with us. Love, however, requires free choice. But a genuinely free choice to love God requires that I be free not to love Him. It is out of this capacity to choose not to love God that the curse of sin and all its evil consequences arise; for whenever I choose to love myself rather than God, sin, corruption and death are always the result, as God has warned (Romans 6:23; Romans 8:6; Galatians 6:7-8; James 1:14-16).

God cannot interrupt our evil choices at every turn without negating our freedom to choose. If He did constantly foil our sinful choices, always dissolving the consequences of them, we would feel ourselves prisoners to God's will, at least, our choices empty things, being made to always conform to God's will. Under such a condition, we would not be free agents in any significant, meaningful sense. God does, of course, here and there, interfere with the wicked choices of people, sometimes protecting others from their wickedness, turning their wickedness upon them. But, for the reason just indicated, He cannot do this all the time. And so, human evil exists in the world, devastating it as God said it would do.

We can see God's desire to have genuine love from His own in Eden. It was in an effort to make Adam and Eve genuinely free to choose Him, to freely choose His will and way, that He created the Forbidden Fruit and allowed the Serpent access to the Garden. Without a real alternative to God's will available, and an awareness of the choice they could make between God's will and their own, Adam and Eve would have been prisoners in Eden, "loving" God without any other possible option. But such constrained "love" is not love at all, really; it's the imposition of circumstance, not something freely chosen, as real love requires.

Isn’t it great that God our Creator gave us the ability to choose. And isn’t it fantastic that He has a script that everything and everyone is a part of. And that this storyline has chapters or scenes which has beginnings and endings. That in all these chapters the ending justify the rest of the chapter. It seems that this Creator/Owner of all things can do as He pleases. He gives and takes away and gives again, even more. He builds and destroys and builds again, even greater according to the amazing theme of God’s story, the script He thought up being fantastic and is unfolding before our very eyes. What a privilege to be a part of the cast.

God made angels and some rebelled. God made humans and they all rebelled. If we paused the story there, part of the way through, we would probably go away feeling depressed. But thanks be to the Script writer, the best is yet to come, the endings will make sense of the rest of the story. God made man and they all rebelled, but God will restore all humans to a greater state and to play out a greater role in the ending of this chapter. God made angels and some rebelled but God their Creator will reconcile, redeem and restore all angels and give them a greater role in the ending of this chapter including the grand finale, wait for it….. God granting Satan a throne on His left, with His Lamb on His right Whose sacrifice reconciled ALL to Himself so that He is all in all. Now that’s something to be excited about! What a demonstration of the love of this God of ours, that He would love not only some but eventually ALL, including every enemy. This is not only GOOD NEWS but BRILLIANT NEWS! The GOSPEL of redemption and reconciliation. Maybe the GOSPEL of mercy at its finest, the GOSPEL of grace at its extreme. Praise the Creator of this divine script with many ongoing happy endings!