Talk to a JW: Trinity debate

[Free]

I AM not seeing the problem

Because there isn’t one, as I stated.

 

[locust]

I am what I am and that's all that I am

 

[Free]

I am what I am and that's all that I am

How does that relate?

 

[locust]

It’s Jesus’s claim to be God. There is nothing wrong with that.

no he was saying he existed long before Abraham was born. Other scriptures prove that to be true that Jesus existed. he being the first thing that God made to happen

 

[locust]

Colossians 1:15
ASV
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Proverbs 8:22 nbsp;The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

 

[Free]

no he was saying he existed long before Abraham was born.

That does not do justice to the context. He didn’t say “I was,” he said “I Am.” And he said “before Abraham was”—he is contrasting Abraham’s temporary existence with his own timeless existence.

That also would not explain why the Jews picked up stones to stone him, which was the penalty for blasphemy.

Other scriptures prove that to be true that Jesus existed. he being the first thing that God made to happen

No scripture shows that Jesus was “the first thing that God made to happen.” Just as John 8:58 shows, there are verses that show he has always existed, as the Son.

 

[locust]

That does not do justice to the context. He didn’t say “I was,” he said “I Am.” And he said “before Abraham was”—he is contrasting Abraham’s temporary existence with his own timeless existence.

That also would not explain why the Jews picked up stones to stone him, which was the penalty for blasphemy.


No scripture shows that Jesus was “the first thing that God made to happen.” Just as John 8:58 shows, there are verses that show he has always existed, as the Son.

before my younger brother was born I AM

 

[Free]

Colossians 1:15
ASV
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Be careful with proof-texting and ignoring context.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. (ESV)

If verse 15 means that Jesus was created or otherwise came into being, then that would directly contradict verses 16 and 17, the only logical conclusion of which is that he has always existed and is therefore necessarily God.

Proverbs 8:22 nbsp;The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

You first have to show that this is referring to the Son, which I don’t believe to be the case. It is a personification of wisdom.

 

[Free]

before my younger brother was born I AM

No. That is grammatical nonsense in English and doesn’t understand the Greek grammar. “Am” is timelessness, it is absolute self-existence, and is from Ex. 3:14.

 

[locust]

No. That is grammatical nonsense in English and doesn’t understand the Greek grammar. “Am” is timelessness, it is absolute self-existence, and is from Ex. 3:14.

I assure you, i am

 

[Free]

I assure you, i am

No, you’re not.

 

[locust]

NLV
Jesus said to them, “For sure, I tell you, before Abraham was born, I was and am and always will be!”
TLB
Jesus: “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”

 

[locust]

No, you’re not.

I am to I am right here

 

[Hidden In Him]

I assure you, i am

I am to I am right here

Locust, what you "are" is incessantly trolling, and there are rules against that in the ToS.

 

[Free]

NLV
Jesus said to them, “For sure, I tell you, before Abraham was born, I was and am and always will be!”

Except the Greek is only “I Am.”

TLB
Jesus: “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”

Butchers the context and ignores Greek grammar.

Those are both potential problems with paraphrasing.

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

Jhn 8:58 "I am telling you the truth," Jesus replied. "Before Abraham was born, 'I Am'." (GNB)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am." (HCSB)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!" (LEB)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM! (LITV)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." (NASB)

Jhn 8:58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (NIV)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (NKJv)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am." (NRSV)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming—I am;' (YLT)

 

[Free]

I am to I am right here

This could also be considered blasphemous.

 

[locust]

Locust, what you "are" is incessantly trolling, and there are rules against that in the ToS.

trolling .I had to look it up Trolling is the act of posting or commenting online to intentionally upset others.

no that is not my intention.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Walter45, JLB and Free,

I have a friend that is a Biblical Unitarian he believes Jesus did not exist before he was born on Earth, which I think is totally ridiculous, and I mention John 17:5 and other scriptures and he says these words don't apply or they have a different meaning, then he gives me two or three paragraphs of explanation in his own words to explain things.

I did a reasonably complete browse of this thread and decided to make a few comments without getting too involved. I understand John 17:5 as an allusion to Psalm 8:5-6. Jesus is speaking about the future glory prophesied that he would have in fulfillment of the New Creation, and this was in prospect before the creation, or as Jesus states "before the world was".

"Biblical Unitarian" is an oxymoron.

I do not usually use the title "Biblical Unitarian", but firstly it is used to distinguish from the traditional "Unitarians" who did not necessarily endorse some aspects of the Bible. Yes, I believe the Bible teaches Unitarianism.

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. John 8:58-59
Why do you believe the Jews picked up stones to throw at Him when He said I AM?

It’s Jesus’s claim to be God. There is nothing wrong with that.

This has been discussed on a number of occasions. I consider that John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28 and is part of the theme of whether or not Jesus is the Christ, Also Exodus 3:14 should be translated as "I will be" as per Tyndale and the RV and RSV margins.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[locust]

This could also be considered blasphemous.

if I may ask ,have you ever said ''i am sorry ''?

 

[locust]

perhaps read Isaiah 46:9 ''Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,''
God is not saying his name is ''I am'' he is saying he is God.