Talk to a JW: Trinity debate

[walter45]

They taught a lot of things besides that. What is it that you believe this verse is saying? Again, why did you choose this verse to post?

First explains there is one God, and there is one mediator Christ Jesus... I do not try to assume it means anything more then what it actually says, each scripture reveals a little bit more information.

 

[Free]

First explains there is one God, and there is one mediator Christ Jesus... I do not try to assume it means anything more then what it actually says, each scripture reveals a little bit more information.

Okay, great. I fully agree.

 

[walter45]

Okay, great. I fully agree.

I'm not trying to be problematic, thank you for your patience, because this is a very hard subject for me, and I don't want to say any incorrect information.

 

[walter45]

Okay, great. I fully agree.

Jesus asks who are people saying that I am?

The first scripture I listed was Jesus having a private conversation with his disciples, and I thought it was very appropriate for this subject, "Jesus identity" and in the conversation with his disciples Simon Peter speaks out, and Jesus affirms Peter's words we're correct.

So to me what do I get out of this? What is the point of this conversation?

Peter refers to Jesus as the Son of the Living God. And Jesus confirms his words.

So I use this conversation as scriptural evidence to put faith in Jesus as the son of the Living God, and a different scripture will give me a little more information.

 

[Free]

The first scripture I listed was Jesus having a private conversation with his disciples, and I thought it was very appropriate for this subject, "Jesus identity" and in the conversation with his disciples Simon Peter speaks out, and Jesus affirms Peter's words we're correct.

So to me what do I get out of this? What is the point of this conversation?

Peter refers to Jesus as the Son of the Living God. And Jesus confirms his words.

So I use this conversation as scriptural evidence to put faith in Jesus as the son of the Living God, and a different scripture will give me a little more information.

I agree.

You also agreed with me in post #73 (HERE), that Jesus was claiming to be I Am, which is a claim to be God in the flesh. Do you agree that Jesus claimed to be God in human flesh, although he never claimed to be the Father?

 

[walter45]

I agree.

You also agreed with me in post #73 (HERE), that Jesus was claiming to be I Am, which is a claim to be God in the flesh. Do you agree that Jesus claimed to be God in human flesh, although he never claimed to be the Father?

I am sorry I do not believe in the [ I am ] commentary explanation. I put stock in what Jesus explains in his own words, not something that is assumed about Jesus words. The Two words I am are used throughout the Bible.

If you want to talk about this scripture later, I have looked up a lot of evidence on it, and would be happy to discuss it with you.

 

[Free]

I am sorry I do not believe in the [ I am ] commentary explanation. I put stock in what Jesus explains in his own words, not something that is assumed about Jesus words.

If you want to talk about this scripture later, I have looked up a lot of evidence on it, and would be happy to discuss it with you.

But, you already said you agreed with what I posted. Do you believe Jesus claimed to be I Am in John 8:58?

 

[walter45]

But, you already said you agreed with what I posted. Do you believe Jesus claimed to be I Am in John 8:58?

I totally agree with John 8:58, but if you look at many other translations, Jesus is replying that he existed before Abraham.. You are saying he is the great "I am" From the book of Exodus, correct?

 

[Free]

I totally agree with John 8:58, but if you look at many other translations, Jesus is replying that he existed before Abraham..

But, I showed how that makes no sense for two reasons: 1) it doesn't answer the question he was asked and 2) it doesn't make grammatical sense.

You are saying he is the great "I am" From the book of Exodus, correct?

I am, but what Ex. 3:14 says doesn't really matter.

 

[walter45]

But, you already said you agreed with what I posted. Do you believe Jesus claimed to be I Am in John 8:58?

I do agree with John 8:58 Jesus existed before Abraham

 

[Free]

I do agree with John 8:58 Jesus existed before Abraham

But Jesus is saying much more than that, as given by the grammar. To say that Jesus is merely claiming to have existed before Abraham doesn't make sense based on what Jesus says.

 

[walter45]

I believe Jesus existed before the world was.. John 17:5

 

[walter45]

But Jesus is saying much more than that, as given by the grammar. To say that Jesus is merely claiming to have existed before Abraham doesn't make sense based on what Jesus says.

I cannot agree with you I cannot add any extra meaning to what Jesus says. Bible translators do not agree that Jesus is talking about the great "I am" in Exodus. Just a few verses before and after use the same exact phrase "I am" and the blind man uses the phrase too.

 

[Free]

I believe Jesus existed before the world was.. John 17:5

Which means he existed before creation of time and space; that is what that means, not simply that he existed before the world was created. That is a claim to eternal preexistence, or absolute existence, which is what only God has.

 

[Free]

I cannot agree with you I cannot add any extra meaning to what Jesus says.

That's the issue though--I am not adding any extra meaning. To say that Jesus was only saying he existed before Abraham makes no sense of the grammar. Jesus said "before Abraham was, I am," not "I was" or "I existed."

It is those who say that Jesus was only saying "before Abraham was, I was [or I existed]," that are removing from the text.

 

[walter45]

Which means he existed before creation of time and space; that is what that means, not simply that he existed before the world was created. That is a claim to eternal preexistence, or absolute existence, which is what only God has.

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:5 NIV

I don't add any extra meaning other than the words that are explained, that Jesus actually spoke..

Otherwise who's doing the explaining Jesus or somebody else?

 

[Free]

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:5 NIV

I don't add any extra meaning other than the words that are explained, that Jesus actually spoke..

Otherwise who's doing the explaining Jesus or somebody else?

But, that is what it means. To speak of "before the world began" is to speak of "eternity past."

Psa 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever you had formed the earth and the world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God. (ESV)

 

[walter45]

That's the issue though--I am not adding any extra meaning. To say that Jesus was only saying he existed before Abraham makes no sense of the grammar. Jesus said "before Abraham was, I am," not "I was" or "I existed."

It is those who say that Jesus was only saying "before Abraham was, I was [or I existed]," that are removing from the text.

And Jesus replied:‘I tell you the truth; I existed before AbraHam was born!’ 2001 translation of the Bible

John — 2001 Translation of the Bible

2001translation.org

 

[Free]

And Jesus replied:‘I tell you the truth; I existed before AbraHam was born!’ 2001 translation of the Bible

John — 2001 Translation of the Bible

2001translation.org

That's a wrong translation, since "born" is not a word Jesus used there. The wording is literally, "Said to them Jesus Truly truly I say to you before Abraham was I am."

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8.htm

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” (ESV)

Jhn 8:58 "I am telling you the truth," Jesus replied. "Before Abraham was born, 'I Am'." (GNB)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "I assure you: Before Abraham was, I am." (HCSB)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I am!" (LEB)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM! (LITV)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." (NASB)

Jhn 8:58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (NIV)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (NKJv)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am." (NRSV)

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming—I am;' (YLT)

 

[walter45]

Please I don't want to debate about any scriptures, I provided the 16 scriptures, and those are the words of Jesus and the apostles, and I believe them, are they not enough evidence for me to believe what they say?

Who is the "only true God" ? John 17:3

You have your belief and your scriptures that support it, I have my belief and my scriptures that support my belief.

How much longer must we debate these things?